Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Marshal Rohr]

I like to think of my Emperor as Anthony Hopkins in West World

[Indefragable]

Why wouldn’t the Emperor have a personality?

Narratively it makes perfect sense for him to be kept at arm’s length and put on a pedestal by all in-setting...and a wise (cunning) leader would know how to use that to his advantage.

I’ve always thought of an element of the “man behind the curtain” to the final confrontation between Horus and the Emperor. Know one (other than Malcador) knows Big E better than Horus, it even still there’s some mystery and at best he’s “Father” rather than Bill who likes to put his feet up and drink PBR’s and scratch his ass.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, even if we accept the explanation in MoM that the viewer interprets the words of the Emperor depending on their perception of him, that can't change his actions. You can pick up enough from his actions to build up an idea of his personality, even if people watching those actions interpret particular words differently when he's explaining why the action was done.

[StrangerOrders]

Well, reporting in on my progress.

 

Still liking the book.

 

The Sons of Horus are getting great characterization.

 

I am still unhappy about Krole but the context that she freaking went alone with a literal deathwish (and her not being unique in this) is in the process of winning me over.

 

I am liking the portrayal of all three legions.

 

It needs to be said that Abnett is wielding a freaking massive cast but everyone feels not just in character but in line with their best characterizations. I kinda like Mortarion, thats never happened before. Magnus and the Sons are fully aware that Horus screwed them and are both cunning and manipulative. I love that.

 

I especially love that Ahriman hates Mortarion the most BECAUSE of their main denouncers he is the only one that did not have the dignity to stick to his guns even at the cost of death and ruin (he seems to think Russ and Corax are dead and that Dorn soon will be). That Magnus is pragmatic to pretend to forgive him but be secretly scathing is to my liking as well, Magnus is supposed to be good with people. Its kinda bittersweet as Mortarion seems genuinely happy that Magnus 'forgives' him.

 

Let's see, what else... Oh! I love that the guy from Horus's Primarch anthology entry is in this! And that Keeler and Sinderman are portrayed as competent in their faith rather than the jittering morons that alot of Brits seem to believe people with an organized religion automatically are (I have a bone to pick with English culture in general and atheists that are basically cosplaying Protestants and how both write organized religion but that is a whole different thing).

 

Over all it continues to be a great journey and I have not even made it to 300 pages!.

[Scribe]

How are they competent in their faith?

[StrangerOrders]

How are they competent in their faith?

Nothing specific so no spoilers.

 

Basically they arent as self-destructive as alot of authors have treated them and are considerably more contemplative (Abnett strikes me as the only writer aside from maybe ADB that has ever dug even slightly into theology).

 

For example with Sinderman, he wrestles constantly with faith because of how much proof he has around him and the internal contradictions that bother him. Sort of like alot of medieval theology goes at length about using Scholastic thought to try and puzzle out the world by reasoning it out and taking comfort in the things they can't. It is good that you can't understand God because if you are equal then literally everything falls apart and you start going mad from the questions. One of those 'How the heck didnt he see this coming? What is the point if this is planned? Why anything?' kind of sinks.

 

Then you have Keeler, who is far more of a zealot. She is earnest and still refuses to stop her ministry. But she delves deeply into cultural evolution, how actions and consequences of both the Faith and the Truth reflect on what kind of society they hope to build and the like.

 

Like any actual religion, you get the idea of very different attitudes about it from both of them. Keeler sounds more like a saint and Sinderman comes across like a medieval University Prof. And they tackle their faiths from very different places. One thing I kind of like is that Sinderman seems to dislike the incohesiveness of the faith (which makes sense given First Wall).

 

Most importantly, you get the feeling that both of them believe that the structure of the Imperium is important but that the beliefs and reasoning they espouse would get both lynched within miliseconds of entering 40k.

 

Which is at odds with the raving lunatics they more or less have been since False Gods. 

 

Its not really a 'here is a quote or spoiler' thing. It comes across from the whole work and makes it much more enjoyable for me tbh.

Edited March 25, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[mc warhammer]

Yeah, yeah, I think we all know each others' author preferences by now....

 

yeah, it's gotten to the point where i'm afraid to start a post with "hey guys-"

 

for fear of the response being "guy is a solid writer who puts out work at an impressive rate, however i find that his prose is tepid and his work is hit and miss. his primarch books are decent while his horus heresy output has been poorer. he is somewhere in the middle between swallow and abd in terms of quality"

Edited March 26, 2020 by mc warhammer

[mc warhammer]

Well, reporting in on my progress.

 

Still liking the book.

 

The Sons of Horus are getting great characterization.

 

I am still unhappy about Krole but the context that she freaking went alone with a literal deathwish (and her not being unique in this) is in the process of winning me over.

 

I am liking the portrayal of all three legions.

 

It needs to be said that Abnett is wielding a freaking massive cast but everyone feels not just in character but in line with their best characterizations. I kinda like Mortarion, thats never happened before. Magnus and the Sons are fully aware that Horus screwed them and are both cunning and manipulative. I love that.

 

I especially love that Ahriman hates Mortarion the most BECAUSE of their main denouncers he is the only one that did not have the dignity to stick to his guns even at the cost of death and ruin (he seems to think Russ and Corax are dead and that Dorn soon will be). That Magnus is pragmatic to pretend to forgive him but be secretly scathing is to my liking as well, Magnus is supposed to be good with people. Its kinda bittersweet as Mortarion seems genuinely happy that Magnus 'forgives' him.

 

Let's see, what else... Oh! I love that the guy from Horus's Primarch anthology entry is in this! And that Keeler and Sinderman are portrayed as competent in their faith rather than the jittering morons that alot of Brits seem to believe people with an organized religion automatically are (I have a bone to pick with English culture in general and atheists that are basically cosplaying Protestants and how both write organized religion but that is a whole different thing).

 

Over all it continues to be a great journey and I have not even made it to 300 pages!.

these are the kinds of spoilers i came here for

 

all the other who-killed-who or who-scattered-who or who-quipped-who stuff i'm indifferent to (at least until i read it), but the meaty character stuff is what i want

 

cheers

[StrangerOrders]

 

Well, reporting in on my progress.

 

Still liking the book.

 

The Sons of Horus are getting great characterization.

 

I am still unhappy about Krole but the context that she freaking went alone with a literal deathwish (and her not being unique in this) is in the process of winning me over.

 

I am liking the portrayal of all three legions.

 

It needs to be said that Abnett is wielding a freaking massive cast but everyone feels not just in character but in line with their best characterizations. I kinda like Mortarion, thats never happened before. Magnus and the Sons are fully aware that Horus screwed them and are both cunning and manipulative. I love that.

 

I especially love that Ahriman hates Mortarion the most BECAUSE of their main denouncers he is the only one that did not have the dignity to stick to his guns even at the cost of death and ruin (he seems to think Russ and Corax are dead and that Dorn soon will be). That Magnus is pragmatic to pretend to forgive him but be secretly scathing is to my liking as well, Magnus is supposed to be good with people. Its kinda bittersweet as Mortarion seems genuinely happy that Magnus 'forgives' him.

 

Let's see, what else... Oh! I love that the guy from Horus's Primarch anthology entry is in this! And that Keeler and Sinderman are portrayed as competent in their faith rather than the jittering morons that alot of Brits seem to believe people with an organized religion automatically are (I have a bone to pick with English culture in general and atheists that are basically cosplaying Protestants and how both write organized religion but that is a whole different thing).

 

Over all it continues to be a great journey and I have not even made it to 300 pages!.

these are the kinds of spoilers i came here for

 

all the other who-killed-who or who-scattered-who or who-quipped-who stuff i'm indifferent to (at least until i read it), but the meaty character stuff is what i want

 

cheers

 

Well, if that's your speed.

 

To build on Krole, there is something really cool happening at the point Dorne decided to sacrifice.

 

You see, its supposed to be a great secret. But its also weirdly cancerous.

 

Not in a chaotic or magical way, just in a very human one. Only a Huscarl, a Custodian and Krole witness Dorn and Valdor planning it and it affects them.

 

The nobility of that death and its necessity at once, the knowledge that if it fails it is all over and the unwillingness to let others die there alone. It appeals to Krole and the Custodian, so much so that they depart together and quietly to the wall. They feel its importance as much as the inevitability of their death, Krole even admits that it is something like Vainglory, to know that her death can have so much meaning.

 

And it spreads, Dorn dispatches the Huscarl to pull back a highly decorated general who was accidentally assigned there. Seeing that the general refuses to go (he had pissed off the Khan and besides that felt he has become too disconnected) the Huscarl explains. The General is left speechless and then utterly refuses to just leave. He can't ask his men to die where he won't and it genuine affects him that he has that small chance to make an impact, a real one. What does the Huscarl do? He maglocks his boots and says his is coming too (ostensibly to protect the general per Dorn's instructions, but privately because he wants to be there).

 

Its a weirdly haunting thing in the book tbh, how desperate and hopeless the Siege is but also how much the chance to have a death they can be proud of means to the loyalists at this point. Its sort of cool.

 

On the flip side, the Traitors arent just doing this for victory. Abbadon, the Mournival and all the captains involved do it more or less secretly. because they hate what Horus is becoming (a mystical potato bound to gods that have pretty constantly screwed them at this point) and they want it to be Astartes that end this. They want it to be a Compliance, not some puppets acting out the plans of nonsensical gods. They are somewhat hopelessly trying to turn back at the last second, not to the Emperor but the initial idea that Warriors built the Imperium and should rule it. They even harbour hopes that if they win, without the aid of Chaos, it might snap Horus out of it. They are sick of being warriors, they want to feel like real soldiers again. Its really cool even as it is painfully obvious they are already too far gone for that to ever happen.

 

It reads as the last gasp of the Luna Wolves actually (Pert even more or less says so when Abbadon proposes it to him in secret. That he also WISHED he had the Luna Wolves but he is stuck with the Sons of Horus.

Edited March 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

What sacrifice did Dorn and Valor plan? You mean Dorn was about to sacrifice himself?

I recall he was pretty much ready to do that vs. Perry.


Also thank you, mc. I think I will habe to copy/paste this from now on:

solid writer who puts out work at an impressive rate, however i find that his prose is tepid and his work is hit and miss. his primarch books are decent while his horus heresy output has been poorer. he is somewhere in the middle between swallow and abd in terms of quality

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

I saw someone in the Dramatis Personae I'm curious about.

 

Zephon. What did he do in the book?

[StrangerOrders]

I saw someone in the Dramatis Personae I'm curious about.

 

Zephon. What did he do in the book?

He is, only just saw him saving the life of a not-Remembrancer like a badass. Land is around, he snuck into a munitions depot to start making cheaper ammo before he was pulled away by the Fists to help with something.

 

 

What sacrifice did Dorn and Valor plan? You mean Dorn was about to sacrifice himself?

I recall he was pretty much ready to do that vs. Perry.

 

 

Also thank you, mc. I think I will habe to copy/paste this from now on:

 

solid writer who puts out work at an impressive rate, however i find that his prose is tepid and his work is hit and miss. his primarch books are decent while his horus heresy output has been poorer. he is somewhere in the middle between swallow and abd in terms of quality

The exact plan hasnt been revealed yet but the book revolves around five 'neighbouring' gates (this is the palace and that term means nothing). Dorne knows he can't hold all five, so he is planning to just make a show of holding one to set something up. Its the same gate the SoH are targeting for their kill-strike.

 

That gate will fall, but its sacrifice and the necessary deaths of them men there that is the thing.

 

Amusingly, I think its Saturnine.

Edited March 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[mc warhammer]

What sacrifice did Dorn and Valor plan? You mean Dorn was about to sacrifice himself?

I recall he was pretty much ready to do that vs. Perry.

 

 

Also thank you, mc. I think I will habe to copy/paste this from now on:

 

solid writer who puts out work at an impressive rate, however i find that his prose is tepid and his work is hit and miss. his primarch books are decent while his horus heresy output has been poorer. he is somewhere in the middle between swallow and abd in terms of quality

ha, no worries. i wasn't necessarily thinking of you, it's just a knee jerk thing whenever someone drops an author's name...no matter the context. it's like an automated reply bot

 

post: "so i hear guy caught corona"

 

reply: "solid writer who puts out work at an impressive rate, however i find that his prose is tepid and his work is hit and miss. his primarch books are decent while his horus heresy output has been poorer. he is somewhere in the middle between swallow and abd in terms of quality"

 

 

 

 

 

Well, reporting in on my progress.

 

Still liking the book.

 

The Sons of Horus are getting great characterization.

 

I am still unhappy about Krole but the context that she freaking went alone with a literal deathwish (and her not being unique in this) is in the process of winning me over.

 

I am liking the portrayal of all three legions.

 

It needs to be said that Abnett is wielding a freaking massive cast but everyone feels not just in character but in line with their best characterizations. I kinda like Mortarion, thats never happened before. Magnus and the Sons are fully aware that Horus screwed them and are both cunning and manipulative. I love that.

 

I especially love that Ahriman hates Mortarion the most BECAUSE of their main denouncers he is the only one that did not have the dignity to stick to his guns even at the cost of death and ruin (he seems to think Russ and Corax are dead and that Dorn soon will be). That Magnus is pragmatic to pretend to forgive him but be secretly scathing is to my liking as well, Magnus is supposed to be good with people. Its kinda bittersweet as Mortarion seems genuinely happy that Magnus 'forgives' him.

 

Let's see, what else... Oh! I love that the guy from Horus's Primarch anthology entry is in this! And that Keeler and Sinderman are portrayed as competent in their faith rather than the jittering morons that alot of Brits seem to believe people with an organized religion automatically are (I have a bone to pick with English culture in general and atheists that are basically cosplaying Protestants and how both write organized religion but that is a whole different thing).

 

Over all it continues to be a great journey and I have not even made it to 300 pages!.

these are the kinds of spoilers i came here for

 

all the other who-killed-who or who-scattered-who or who-quipped-who stuff i'm indifferent to (at least until i read it), but the meaty character stuff is what i want

 

cheers

Well, if that's your speed.

 

To build on Krole, there is something really cool happening at the point Dorne decided to sacrifice.

 

You see, its supposed to be a great secret. But its also weirdly cancerous.

 

Not in a chaotic or magical way, just in a very human one. Only a Huscarl, a Custodian and Krole witness Dorn and Valdor planning it and it affects them.

 

The nobility of that death and its necessity at once, the knowledge that if it fails it is all over and the unwillingness to let others die there alone. It appeals to Krole and the Custodian, so much so that they depart together and quietly to the wall. They feel its importance as much as the inevitability of their death, Krole even admits that it is something like Vainglory, to know that her death can have so much meaning.

 

And it spreads, Dorn dispatches the Huscarl to pull back a highly decorated general who was accidentally assigned there. Seeing that the general refuses to go (he had pissed off the Khan and besides that felt he has become too disconnected) the Huscarl explains. The General is left speechless and then utterly refuses to just leave. He can't ask his men to die where he won't and it genuine affects him that he has that small chance to make an impact, a real one. What does the Huscarl do? He maglocks his boots and says his is coming too (ostensibly to protect the general per Dorn's instructions, but privately because he wants to be there).

 

Its a weirdly haunting thing in the book tbh, how desperate and hopeless the Siege is but also how much the chance to have a death they can be proud of means to the loyalists at this point. Its sort of cool.

 

On the flip side, the Traitors arent just doing this for victory. Abbadon, the Mournival and all the captains involved do it more or less secretly. because they hate what Horus is becoming (a mystical potato bound to gods that have pretty constantly screwed them at this point) and they want it to be Astartes that end this. They want it to be a Compliance, not some puppets acting out the plans of nonsensical gods. They are somewhat hopelessly trying to turn back at the last second, not to the Emperor but the initial idea that Warriors built the Imperium and should rule it. They even harbour hopes that if they win, without the aid of Chaos, it might snap Horus out of it. They are sick of being warriors, they want to feel like real soldiers again. Its really cool even as it is painfully obvious they are already too far gone for that to ever happen.

 

It reads as the last gasp of the Luna Wolves actually (Pert even more or less says so when Abbadon proposes it to him in secret. That he also WISHED he had the Luna Wolves but he is stuck with the Sons of Horus.

ahhhhhh that hit the spot

Edited March 26, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Allart01]

Damn, this book was gold.

The last 100 or so pages are a proper punch to the guts.

You guys need to read this, with everything in its proper context.

One-line spoilers just won't do it justice.

[b1soul]

Reading some of the spoilers online...is there any reason (either implied or otherwise) why Loken seems to beat Aximand this time without much difficulty?

[I_Am_IronSam]

Finished this last night... Loved it..! Definitely recommend reading it. 

[Allart01]

I saw someone in the Dramatis Personae I'm curious about.

 

Zephon. What did he do in the book?

He has a couple of scenes. Dies protecting a rememberancer/historian from a bombardment.

 

Also, for people who have finished the book:

 

...Is my homeboy Shiban really dead? Like that? Tell me I misread that passage :(

 

I was expecting Wraight and ADB to tackle him and Zephon respectively. Not sure if I'd call these "missed opportunities" or not.

Edited March 26, 2020 by The_Bloody

[b1soul]

Can you elaborate about Shiban？

In Restorer, he leads that charge against the Traitors at the Lions Gate IIRC...wouldn't that mean he survives a bit longer?

[Kelborn]

If that's true....

 

Zephon and Shiban dead..../ragequite

I mean, c'mon! Why?

[Guest Drekkan]

If that's true....

 

Zephon and Shiban dead..../ragequite

I mean, c'mon! Why?

Just for

 

https://media1.tenor.com/images/0cf8b8b298edf6e0f297839451042dd6/tenor.gif?itemid=5412476

 

Sorry, it was too tempting.

 

Auto save has eaten a long post from me about the erasing of classic litterature influence in 40k.

 

So long story short, it went from paradise disowned & a bit of judge Dredd to avenger movie number whatever.

 

I feel the pain of my fellas, who grew up with previous 40k iterations ..

[StrangerOrders]

Finally hit the... controversial scenes.

 

I surprisingly like them.

 

Most of all, Erdu actually liking the Emp personally is great. It feels right that the Emp should be charismatic, even if with Valdor we know that his increasing 'warp-iness' has been widdling that down.

 

I also buy the idea that she seemed to have actually loved the Emp at one point (and frankly, she still seems to), she actually speaks warmly of him even while seeing his flaws and explaining why she turned on him at the end. She also describes him in a weirdly sympathetic light, his strengths are his flaws. It would be torturous to live in a world where no one could think as fast as you did, keep up with you in any sphere and everyone constantly doubted what seemed obvious to you. In that light of course you would be desperate to make everyone like you. 

 

That she actually says that she thought that He was glad the others abandoned him was telling. 

 

It also crests that long pattern they've been building across the books for a while now that the Emp's fatal flaw wasn't arrogance but a severe and mad impatience to make the world change quickly. A speed that allowed for any sacrifice or suffering (including his own) as long as the objective was reached.

 

That being said, she is a pretty horrid mother if she really considered the Primarchs her children. Angron. Fulgrim, Mortarion, the Lion and a few others would probably be a touch less than happy with her decision making process. Especially the ones that were literally made slaves.

Edited March 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[calgar101]

I'm in agreement with you there StrangerOrders, thanks for helping us who missed out on the book.

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

 

I saw someone in the Dramatis Personae I'm curious about.

 

Zephon. What did he do in the book?

He has a couple of scenes. Dies protecting a rememberancer/historian from a bombardment.

 

Also, for people who have finished the book:

 

...Is my homeboy Shiban really dead? Like that? Tell me I misread that passage

 

I was expecting Wraight and ADB to tackle him and Zephon respectively. Not sure if I'd call these "missed opportunities" or not.

 

He's dead?

I'm starting to despise this book. I was looking forward to ADB continuing Zephon's story. And Shiban gets it too?

[Allart01]

Zephon's body is recovered, put in stasis and delivered to Land. Perhaps the Technoarcheologist will do something for him, but the body is explicitly described as waiting for geneseed extraction.

Shiban's shuttle crashed against the Eternity Wall as the spaceport was overrun by the World Eaters. The prose just cuts away before the "splat", but I wouldn't place hope on his survival, sadly. It surely felt like a death scene to me, which Is why I asked for other people's opinions (partially or totally contradicting my previous post about one-line spoilers...)

It sucks to lose Shiban like that, in a not even really glorious way. He was among my favourite characters of the whole Heresy.
But his death, among others, confers a real sense of tragedy and loss to the Spaceport's fall.
I surely will remember it as a tragic event, as opposed to the battle for the Lion's Gate spaceport in the previous book, which felt like a mere plot a ploint.

Edited March 26, 2020 by The_Bloody

[b1soul]

I hope this isn't a case of one authour not having a clue about another authour's work

French did it with Jubal's origin in Warhawk

Hope Abnett doesn't do it with Shiban's role in Restorer

I feel that this truly can't be an oversight. This would massively affect the WS-heavy Lions Gate novel by Wraight so Wraight must've green-lit it