BA and 9th Ed

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well, overwatch now costing a CP is amazing for Blood Angels.

 

Angel's wing is now not the auto take it once was, unless you play narrative missions. Huge change and welcomed.

 

BA just became even more brutal for those devastating turn 1 charges.

[Blindhamster]

poor poor rievers also got worse from it as frankly, about the only thing they had going for them were the grenades at this point, and they're even more situational now.

[Montoya]

poor poor rievers also got worse from it as frankly, about the only thing they had going for them were the grenades at this point, and they're even more situational now.

 

Here's a use for your reavers (though I do agree with you.  Have 10.  Never happy with them.  Made them into infiltrators instead.)

 

get them in charge range in the same turn that your death company or SG are in charge range as well.   Declare the charge with the Reivers first.  So your opponent likely won't overwatch as they will want to save to use on your nastier unit.   So the reavers get in and actually get to do some damage.

 

If they do over watch the reavers, then you save your nastier unit from feeling the pain of the overwatch.

 

All that said..... you can do the same thing with scouts for a whole lot cheaper.  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

poor poor rievers also got worse from it as frankly, about the only thing they had going for them were the grenades at this point, and they're even more situational now.

But Terror Troops! -sarcasm-

 

That unit does need an overhaul to be good. Maybe if they change grav-chutes to actually being jump packs?

 

Otherwise no reason to take these now with melee intercessors on the rise.

 

 

poor poor rievers also got worse from it as frankly, about the only thing they had going for them were the grenades at this point, and they're even more situational now.

Here's a use for your reavers (though I do agree with you. Have 10. Never happy with them. Made them into infiltrators instead.)

 

get them in charge range in the same turn that your death company or SG are in charge range as well. Declare the charge with the Reivers first. So your opponent likely won't overwatch as they will want to save to use on your nastier unit. So the reavers get in and actually get to do some damage.

 

If they do over watch the reavers, then you save your nastier unit from feeling the pain of the overwatch.

 

All that said..... you can do the same thing with scouts for a whole lot cheaper.

You're better off charging in a rhino or impulsor because both are cheaper than the reiver squad*

 

*right now

[BluejayJunior]

If your reivers are that close, have them use their grenades that turn off overwatch, rather than charge them in first. But agree, Reivers are weird right now. They've mentioned changes coming for morale/leadership, so maybe their leadership debuff will actually be worth something. 

 

Angel's Wing is still good, but definitely not an auto take. Can still be used to protect a Smash Capt from Overwatch, which is one unit that opponents will be looking to use their strat against. 

 

I like the new overwatch rules, though. Big help to Blood Angels.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Well, overwatch now costing a CP is amazing for Blood Angels.

Angel's wing is now not the auto take it once was, unless you play narrative missions. Huge change and welcomed.

BA just became even more brutal for those devastating turn 1 charges.

Why would the Angel‘s Wing no longer be an auto include? Wouldn’t it still shut down overwatch?

[Leonaides]

Because an enemy can only overwatch once, with 1 unit, as its a stratagem. Makes angels wing less needed though the certainty is still helpful.

[Arkhanist]

 

Well, overwatch now costing a CP is amazing for Blood Angels.

Angel's wing is now not the auto take it once was, unless you play narrative missions. Huge change and welcomed.

BA just became even more brutal for those devastating turn 1 charges.

Why would the Angel‘s Wing no longer be an auto include? Wouldn’t it still shut down overwatch?

 

 

Matched play means you can only use the overwatch strat once per phase. Only one unit gets to fire overwatch; so if you have multiple charges that turn, or your smash captain target doesn't have much to hurt him with, then he may well not be the target. Hell, costing 1CP per use means you may not face any overwatch at all in a given turn. So that means angel's wing is still an option that will be useful at times, but not a must-have; something else may be more valuable.

 

This single change substantially alters the balance for castling up vs assault armies, plus you can punish them for falling back, and terrain changes means popping out of LoS blocking cover got a lot easier too. On the other hand, tanks etc can also fire on you inside 1" so it's not all one-way in favour of melee, plus blast changes.

 

Shooting has been getting better and better vs assault armies since 6th edition; we might actually see that trend reverse with 9th!

[SnorriSnorrison]

Ah, because of the rarity of overwatch. Fair enough! Well, maybe the Gleaming Pinions might actually see some action then, even though right now I don’t see the Fall back + charge as very relevant.

[Quixus]

Well, overwatch now costing a CP is amazing for Blood Angels.

 

Angel's wing is now not the auto take it once was, unless you play narrative missions. Huge change and welcomed.

 

BA just became even more brutal for those devastating turn 1 charges.

How do the new rules (except for the smaller battlefield guideline) improve our chances of getting turn 1 charges?

 

Matched play means you can only use the overwatch strat once per phase. Only one unit gets to fire overwatch; so if you have multiple charges that turn, or your smash captain target doesn't have much to hurt him with, then he may well not be the target.

Do we already know that the one strat only once per turn will survive?

[Montoya]

 

Do we already know that the one strat only once per turn will survive?

 

 

Yes.   They said that in their write up on the overwatch, that this was one of the benefits to assault based armies. (i.e. that over watch is only once).    Note, that it is once per phase, not once per turn.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Well, overwatch now costing a CP is amazing for Blood Angels.

 

Angel's wing is now not the auto take it once was, unless you play narrative missions. Huge change and welcomed.

 

BA just became even more brutal for those devastating turn 1 charges.

How do the new rules (except for the smaller battlefield guideline) improve our chances of getting turn 1 charges?

Matched play means you can only use the overwatch strat once per phase. Only one unit gets to fire overwatch; so if you have multiple charges that turn, or your smash captain target doesn't have much to hurt him with, then he may well not be the target.

Do we already know that the one strat only once per turn will survive?

Infiltrators, incursors, invictor war suits, as well as forlorn fury on either Death company drop, + deep strike + re-roll charges, UWoF with +2" bubble all give benefit to strong turn 1 charges. Smaller boards just increases this.

 

They won't be hampered by multiple overwatches either.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Quixus]

Infiltrators, incursors, invictor war suits, as well as forlorn fury on either Death company drop, + deep strike + re-roll charges, UWoF with +2" bubble all give benefit to strong turn 1 charges.

Don't all those already work?

[Panzer]

Yeah nothing from what we know indicates that first turn charges will be any easier in 9th than it currently is. Board sizes getting smaller? Well yes and no. Firstly, it's only the recommended minimum size. Nothing stopping you from using the same tables as before (which I'm sure most will do). Secondly, and arguably more importantly, the distance between both deployment zones is still 24" regardless of the board size.

[Xenith]

 the distance between both deployment zones is still 24" regardless of the board size.

 

This. This is what all the 'Chicken Little' sky is falling people seem to forget. 

[Jolemai]

Get out of here with your common sense, this is the internet.

 

...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Infiltrators, incursors, invictor war suits, as well as forlorn fury on either Death company drop, + deep strike + re-roll charges, UWoF with +2" bubble all give benefit to strong turn 1 charges.

Don't all those already work?

Yes, but now you don't lose units to charges as often. Nothing is worse than chafe getting free kills outside of their own turn...

 

Or trying to even think about charging tau lines.

 

Being able to counter charge units that end up near your board edge is pretty interesting too. This makes infiltrators bananas to counter your opponent trying to counter attack you. Unless some other rule supercedes this. Infiltrators are going to be one of the best units in 40k of 9th if we don't see many changes.

[Indefragable]

I’m withholding judgement until we see all the details.

 

As of right now things seem far too skewered in melee armies’ favor.

 

I’m guessing Reserves are completely overhauled to the point where there will be much more ducking and weaving off the table so right when you think you have the opponent cornered he can run off the board and come back on the other side ala classic Mario.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I’m withholding judgement until we see all the details.

 

As of right now things seem far too skewered in melee armies’ favor.

 

I’m guessing Reserves are completely overhauled to the point where there will be much more ducking and weaving off the table so right when you think you have the opponent cornered he can run off the board and come back on the other side ala classic Mario.

As I've stated in other threads and forums. Shooting has been superior for at least 3 editions if not 4 depending on how you played 5th. Though 5th was much better at being able to hit back armor with grenades to take out AV. That's a pipe dream now.

 

There's also been previous editions where Melee was much scarier than it is now. I'm okay with all the changes.

 

One thing I do like is the mind games of always charging from 12" out now with a unit as there is almost zero down side to it. They waste the CP awesome, if I don't make it in I lose nothing, if I do make it in only profit and then charge with everything else.

 

The amount of tactical play this has created is going to be awesome.

[Chronos1985]

Don't count the Reivers out for Space Marines and Blood Angels. GW has heard 4 years of complaints about how useless Reivers are. I have a pretty good feeling we'll see significant changes for them in 9th edition.

[Panzer]

I’m guessing Reserves are completely overhauled to the point where there will be much more ducking and weaving off the table so right when you think you have the opponent cornered he can run off the board and come back on the other side ala classic Mario.

 

I doubt that will be a thing. Firstly, not every unit will be able to just go back into reserves at will. So far that's only reserved to flyers the same way it was before 8th. Secondly if it's possible you surely won't be able to let the unit get back on the board during the same turn so you effectively sacrifice a whole turn. If we still have the same restriction of units having to arrive before turn 4 then you definitely don't ever want to do that as reaction to the enemy reaching your lines.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Panzer

[Xenith]

I’m withholding judgement until we see all the details.

 

As of right now things seem far too skewered in melee armies’ favor.

 

I’m guessing Reserves are completely overhauled to the point where there will be much more ducking and weaving off the table so right when you think you have the opponent cornered he can run off the board and come back on the other side ala classic Mario.

 

Most editions of the game have penalised assault armies. I think 3rd was maybe the most balanced where both shooting and assault were deadly with the sweeping advance rules and Rhino Rush, then 4th was ok,  but 6-8 are so massively aligned to shooting that its not funny. They have to do all this stuff to make melee even close to the power shooting has. 

[Panzer]

I mean if we compare shooting and melee, it's kinda silly at how much of a disadvantage melee is, really.

 

Shooty units:

• usually have a lot of range so they can start dealing damage turn 1+ as long as they can see their target
• have a much better target selection because of their range
• don't have to roll for range if they want to shoot at something (aka charge roll)
• don't have the enemy unit shoot back just because you dared to aim at them (aka overwatch)
• don't have the enemy unit immediately shoot back (aka the enemy activating their unit in your fight phase as well)

What is it melee units have over shooty units? Sure they can't be shot at if they are in melee (unless it's tanks now I guess), however the enemy simply falls back and deletes your unit with the units you didn't catch in melee so it's really not that great of an advantage, especially if it means that you deliberately have to try and keep the enemy's unit alive instead of just wiping it from the board like shooty units can do.

 

 

Losing just one of those advantages, and arguably the most minor one, won't change a whole lot. Especially when you can just pay 1CP and still do it with the one or two units in your army where it's actually worth rolling the dice for.

Having potentially more obscuring terrain on the boards on the other hand is much interesting and game changing, however that's completely up to the players and is something that could've been done already so I doubt we'll see a huge shift in that regard.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Panzer

[Xenith]

I think designers (used to?) have the idea that melee was so strong as you could fight/deal damage in both your and your opponent's turns. Melee was really, really strong in 3rd ed, even though shooting was also, and most armies had a way to reliably get into combat T1.

 

This was a massive issue and it got watered down a lot over successive editions, I think there was even am actual "no T1 charges allowed" rule in 4th?? They seemed to ignore the fact that guns can shoot at full effectiveness from T1. They massively overdid it, and melee has been struggling since. 

 

You can still see a lot of responses to the 3rd edition meta in the current edition, like tactical squads. In 3rd you could take 5 man tacs with plasma, lascannon and combi weapon. This was a pretty strong build, and in 4th got nuked. Yet here we have full primaris units with special weapons, and the tac squad still canot get a heavy and special in 5 men. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Xenith

[Quixus]

And they can't even have a boltgun and a chainsword/combat blade. True grit was cool