BA and 9th Ed

[Xenith]

And they can't even have a boltgun and a chainsword/combat blade. True grit was cool

 

Weirdly, true grit has kind of come back - you got +1A from having a combat weapon, but never got the +1A from charging. Now models can have a bolter and chainsword and get +1A from the chainsword, but dont get the +1A from charging, unless they have a special rule. 

[Orblivion]

The biggest handicap I thought melee always had since I started playing was the restriction on charging from deep strike.  Apparently deepstriking is so disorienting you can't run in a straight line and swing a sword, but it's not so disorienting that you can't shoot as accurately as you normally would.  The removal of that restriction is a big reason that 8th edition has been so much more fun for me.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Let's not forget there have been previous editions without over watch at all. People have just been spoiled.

 

I miss the days that if you were 6" away you auto passed your charge, and then if your opponent's unit was below half strength could be kited off the board, but still had the ability to shoot as they fell back. That was one of my favorite mechanics of 5th, even though you had to roll snake eyes for insane heroism, you could still shoot the unit etc.

 

Nothing I've seen so far has made melee seem superior to shooting. For 9th, just pulls it closer to being on par with it.

[Quixus]

 

And they can't even have a boltgun and a chainsword/combat blade. True grit was cool

 

Weirdly, true grit has kind of come back - you got +1A from having a combat weapon, but never got the +1A from charging. Now models can have a bolter and chainsword and get +1A from the chainsword, but dont get the +1A from charging, unless they have a special rule.

 

Very few models can actually have a combat weapon and a boltgun (and not a pistol). Tacticals can't (does the "new" box still have loads of combat blades?), Assault marines can't, Vanguard Veterans can't, Sternguard Veterans can't either IIRC (AFB right now).

 

Off the top of my head I only remember the reiver sergeant and a few HQ characters (and those only through legacy options).

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Nothing I've seen so far has made melee seem superior to shooting. For 9th, just pulls it closer to being on par with it.

Couldn’t be more in agreement. People who play hyper shooting orientated lists say the sky is falling, when in reality it’s just that both approaches will be more favourable than one over the other. The difference is shooty armies will find it a hell of lot harder to table CC armies before T2 or T3, and new terrain rules and less over watch will make life a bit easier for CC armies. I foresee the new powerhouse actually being versatile armies, that can do both shooting and CC well, and units that do both well *cough* Outrider Bikers *cough*, will reign supreme. Mobility, both shooting and CC, will be powerful.

 

Edit; Coy veterans can do bolter and chainswords, but for a minimal cost I’d rather upgrade to storm bolsters.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Captain Smashy Pants

[Montoya]

 

 

And they can't even have a boltgun and a chainsword/combat blade. True grit was cool

 

Weirdly, true grit has kind of come back - you got +1A from having a combat weapon, but never got the +1A from charging. Now models can have a bolter and chainsword and get +1A from the chainsword, but dont get the +1A from charging, unless they have a special rule.

 

Very few models can actually have a combat weapon and a boltgun (and not a pistol). Tacticals can't (does the "new" box still have loads of combat blades?), Assault marines can't, Vanguard Veterans can't, Sternguard Veterans can't either IIRC (AFB right now).

 

Off the top of my head I only remember the reiver sergeant and a few HQ characters (and those only through legacy options).

 

 

Death company can 

[Xenith]

The biggest handicap I thought melee always had since I started playing was the restriction on charging from deep strike.  Apparently deepstriking is so disorienting you can't run in a straight line and swing a sword, but it's not so disorienting that you can't shoot as accurately as you normally would.  The removal of that restriction is a big reason that 8th edition has been so much more fun for me.

 

But again, deepstrike heavily favours shooting - you can shoot with full effect after deploying like that, while an assault needs a roll of 9" or more, something that's got only a ~25% chance of happening. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

Also in other news:

Charges must reach every declared target or they count as failed. That will affect us for the Angels Wing build I think, denying a plethora of units overwatch isn’t as important anymore luckily.

[Majkhel]

Yeah, the 'supposed' nerf to the overwatch is greatly mitigated by the fact, that some units will still be able to overwatch just because they have this in their datasheets. And it looks like it will be much more common to encounter improved 5+ overwatch or even better. 

 

Also note that it was said, that inside enemy DZ, enemy can bring reinforcements inside the Engagement Range, counting arriving units as charging. This is huge and will impact our way of playing as we currently like to pressure the enemy early on and often inside their DZ. To me this is a huge disadvantage for CC-oriented armies. Now it's enough for the enemy to have just a few proper melee units in reserves to pull quite strongly at our ropes with the danger of a counter-charge

 

So far, although I see a lot of talking about CC improvement, I expect only a slight shift in balance if any in the final rules.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Yeah that’s the real kicker. Our assault forces are usually right on top of the enemy, leaving then exposed to countercharges by units not even on the battlefield. I suppose that this was implemented to make alpha strikes less desirable as I’m certain those units will count as destroyed if not on the table after the turn 3 movement phase.

 

People cry about the sky falling for Tau (well they deserve it!) and shooty armies in general, but the changes made to reserves and charges don’t really help if you’re playing a melee army yourself. I guess GW want us to footslog over the battlefield and reach the opponents lines in turn 2 or 3...

[Quixus]

Yeah, the 'supposed' nerf to the overwatch is greatly mitigated by the fact, that some units will still be able to overwatch just because they have this in their datasheets. And it looks like it will be much more common to encounter improved 5+ overwatch or even better.

That so reminds me of 8th Edition. Everyone always gets a save, so 6+ does not feel useless! - Oh and here are the Mortal Wounds rules. Now not only can low saves feel useless but high toughness as well. :facepalm:

[Panzer]

 

Yeah, the 'supposed' nerf to the overwatch is greatly mitigated by the fact, that some units will still be able to overwatch just because they have this in their datasheets. And it looks like it will be much more common to encounter improved 5+ overwatch or even better.

That so reminds me of 8th Edition. Everyone always gets a save, so 6+ does not feel useless! - Oh and here are the Mortal Wounds rules. Now not only can low saves feel useless but high toughness as well.

 

 

There's no such thing as "everyone always gets a save" in this edition though.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Yeah that’s the real kicker. Our assault forces are usually right on top of the enemy, leaving then exposed to countercharges by units not even on the battlefield. I suppose that this was implemented to make alpha strikes less desirable as I’m certain those units will count as destroyed if not on the table after the turn 3 movement phase.

 

People cry about the sky falling for Tau (well they deserve it!) and shooty armies in general, but the changes made to reserves and charges don’t really help if you’re playing a melee army yourself. I guess GW want us to footslog over the battlefield and reach the opponents lines in turn 2 or 3...

Welcome back to 3rd ed! Time to dust off those rhinos!

[Quixus]

Welcome back to 3rd ed! Time to dust off those rhinos!

LOOK RHINOS! RHIIINOS!...

[Thoridon]

I don’t see the reserve changes (that we know of so far) as a problem really. Yes, if you Forlorn and charge up the board T1 you can end up with enemy reserves arriving in your face, but that comes down to risk/reward.

 

There should be some real thought given to when to commit forces, balancing the risk of overcommitment too early versus leaving things too late. Knowing what the opponent has in reserve to counter and where they could be used is just a part of that.

 

What I’m seeing with 9th coming is that a balanced force should play out nicely - soften targets with early shooting, commit melee and reserves at the right time to deliver the winning punch.

 

And above all, playing to the mission seems to be the #1 factor.

[BluejayJunior]

And with what they're saying about terrain, will also involve lots of using terrain to hide and move around until the right time to charge through a ruin at the enemy. 

[Drunken Angel]

A few squads of bolter/chainsword DC with some power weapons hanging in reserve seem a cheap but nasty third turn unit shoot and charge.  Even sargeanthammer intercessors look good value, in my games they have been great backfield units.

[Arkhanist]

This was a sneaky way to reveal a rule change - at the end of the Death Guard faction focus

 

"Since the player who isn’t taking their turn gets to choose the first non-charging unit to fight with..."

[Leonaides]

So, just ordered a scorpius from fw. Should have it in time for 9th/etl...

[Panzer]

This is huge!

 

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

This is huge!

 

Is it? Im having trouble thinking up scenarios where this would apply in games i play.

[Leonaides]

Cuts out tri-locking, for example, unless you can flood the area so they can't move far enough away.

 

While it does mean there is a chance for a truly pinned unit to escape, its costly, one use per phase only and can still hurt.

 

Edit- note that its 1 model destroyed not 1 mw or anything.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Leonaides

[Indefragable]

I like it.

 

The risk/reward option that is the bedrock of good strategy games. As @Leonaides said, it’s a way to get out of tri-locking and other tricks (the DE Wyches way of preventing you from falling back), but it prevents you from taking further actions with the unit. Do you go all-on to save the precious unit or do you take your chances duking it out?

 

This is one of the ways melee armies are going to be grounded a bit with all these positive changes overall.

 

I think this is going to be the new Counter-Attack in terms of having to plan ahead for knowing when your opponent is likely to pop this.

[Arkhanist]

The bigger issue is not so much about saving the unit being trilocked, but about opening up the unit doing the trilocking to being shot at by the rest of the enemy army at short range. It is definitely gamey, but locking an enemy unit in combat so they can't fall back, to avoid getting shot to pieces next turn was one of the few tricks melee units have to balance against the big advantage shooting has in 8th.

 

On the plus side, this plus the changes to tanks means there's much less point trying to be clever, you just need to use melee units to try to annihilate something important on the charge and take the counterpunch on the chin. At least it's thematic for death company!

[Captain Caine 24th]

I agree trapping a unit ("tri-pointing") in combat was a great 8th ed. tactic to prevent being shot at in the opponent's shooting phase. 

 

Desperate Breakout. One might be able to leverage stratagem usage limits by way of making Multiple charges in a single phase. I suppose you could use cheap assault units or a rush of a lot of assault units to try and coax the opponent into spending this 2 CP (like orks or tyranids rushing a gunline). Though typically BA is rather elite points-wise, and the plan ought to be more than throwing a unit away, if it can be helped. Using multiple small units to make charges, encouraged also by the advent of blast weapons, might achieve this sort of tactical flexibility. Still, with captains, lieutenants, chaplains, etc., you almost want really big units to get the most out of their aura capabilities (and it also gets very difficult to charge and keep auras in multiple directions without big numbers. Maybe a death company unit of 9 becomes common). Also, limiting this tactic is that it seems the order of assaults has flipped--with the charged player picking the next unit to fight-that's a big one.

 

With Tanks and monsters shooting into combat this 8th edition tri-pointing tactic is already more limited now (I mean you'd still avoid the rest of the army shooting at you, but with something like a baneblade multiple rounds of combat is looking very bad).  Maybe @Arkhanist you're right, blow it up right away.

 

Other movement options, like Reserves or the character keyword (mephiston) in coordination with durable units moving up the board might still mitigate lots of enemy shooting.

 

@ Indefragable I agree these positive changes to assault are kept grounded.