BA and 9th Ed

[Quixus]

Patrol, Battalion and Brigade are supposed to be free if they contain your Warlord. So there is no cheaper variant in terms of CP at least. Troop tax is another matter.

I was talking about a second detachment when the first one does not have enough elites slots.

 

 

I bet troops will be the only ones who can do those special actions like raise banner/etc. Troops have always had a place in 40k - I bet they’ll be in a similar place

I sure hope so. Since every unit could score their role has been greatly diminished. Now you only have to shift a troops unit from an objective to capture it, not also put your own troops there. Edited June 6, 2020 by Quixus

[Indefragable]

Extrapolating and speculating based on their comment about all points costs going up, I have a feeling Elites will cost a premium in points now, as will specialist units. 

 

I have a feeling that will be part of their way of keeping Troops relevant (aka you might be able to take 2-3-4 times the # of troops as a single elites slot instead of the like 10-30% price difference as it currently stands). 

[Montoya]

doubt that there will be that big a difference in points for elites etc.

 

What will make troops relevant is that a battalion (or I guess brigade) are still really the main viable detachments to take.  

 

You can still only take 3 detachments.   So in a 200 point game you could in theory take 3 vanguard detachments.  But all of them then cost you command points.   If you instead pay the "troop tax" of a battalion (same as always) you'll get up to 6 elite slots for zero CP.    No brainer in my mind.

[redshadow]

For us probably a single battalion detachment will be enough.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

For us probably a single battalion detachment will be enough.

Its interesting that you say that. In the past the average BA character structure is minimum 4.

 

We just have so many good characters it's going to be hard dropping down to 3, especially with how the utility of each character plays within our army.

 

We can't really forgo smashy in competitive play, and most of us have grown so accustomed to having Slamguinous as a staple to the army its going to really need some list tinkering.*

 

Astorath or Lemartes are both still excellent options depending on what you're wanting to accomplish, and Mephiston is still Mephiston. Don't forget we also have Psyker dreads which are absolutely one of my personal favorite units, not to mention still wanting a priest or primaris lieutenant etc.

 

I've been speculating that you will see, for certain MEQ armies etc. Either a brigade or Battalion + patrol/vanguard detachment based on their CP cost. The patrol detachment for an additional +2 characters seems at first glance, combined with the little we know about the changes to command points/spenders, the meta going forward. I could be way off base. But if pats only cost 1 CP to a vanguard or equivalent it may behoove you to spend the 1 CP for the addition of a minimum 2 characters. And if need be in a 2k game double that up as needed.**

 

I could be way off base on this, but that's part of the fun of all this and helps build hype and excitement for those of us who enjoy list building as part of the hobby.

 

 

*This doesn't factor in the points increases across the board. That alone is going to really change how we tailor our lists!

 

**Speculation but with how CP works now Patrols should fundamentally cost less to field than a specialist detachment.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Blindhamster]

I am so happy I never went with captain smash.

 

I usually use a librarian or chaplain of some kind, a captain of some kind and sometimes lieutenants.

 

Battalion will continue to serve me just fine I think.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I am so happy I never went with captain smash.

 

I usually use a librarian or chaplain of some kind, a captain of some kind and sometimes lieutenants.

 

Battalion will continue to serve me just fine I think.

Qell I built Calen for the FoB. And I've developed this whole back story for him. I didnt do it to chase the meta, I had just never made a TH/SS captain before him.

 

I use him more conservatively then most, but I do get the occasional eye roll in the non-competitive campaign group.

 

But the same thing goes for when I want to field Terrahn (my libby dread) over Calen(smash) I think it will be the same for a lot of BA players. If push comes to shove, right now, without knowing anything else a patrol detachment seems like a solid secondary choice.

I am so happy I never went with captain smash.

 

I usually use a librarian or chaplain of some kind, a captain of some kind and sometimes lieutenants.

 

Battalion will continue to serve me just fine I think.

Qell I built Calen for the FoB. And I've developed this whole back story for him. I didnt do it to chase the meta, I had just never made a TH/SS captain before him.

 

I use him more conservatively then most, but I do get the occasional eye roll in the non-competitive campaign group.

 

But the same thing goes for when I want to field Terrahn (my libby dread) over Calen(smash) I think it will be the same for a lot of BA players. If push comes to shove, right now, without knowing anything else a patrol detachment seems like a solid secondary choice.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Something I've been talking about with a couple guys is with the change to detachments and depending on the cost, a Supreme command detachment may be the new hotness. Especially for BA to continue our multiple hero modifiers.

 

I'm interested to see how changes to CP and units work. Like Smurfs and DA having CM that give CP will they still? If so those armies have much more leniency than we do with regards to multiple detachments.

 

Even with points increases i think the bulk utility of our characters outweighs the points increases.

[redshadow]

New article is up

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/09/tanks-are-back-on-trackgw-homepage-post-1/

 

Good for tanks and monstrous creatures, doesn’t effect us much

Edited June 9, 2020 by redshadow

[Xenith]

With the new ability of tanks to fire into combat with a -1 to hit penalty, is anyone else thinking triple flamer baals are going to be quite fun - flame, charge, keep flaming. Same goes for Fragiosos.

 

Again, this is kind of like the pistols, as your opponent will most likely fall back to let his big guns shoot your tanks, but this is a good way for tanks to stay safe, or at least force your opponent to forgo shooting with a unit.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

How is no one screaming for joy for the Baal Predator? The -1 to hit when moving only affects infantry!

[Rhavien]

How is no one screaming for joy for the Baal Predator? The -1 to hit when moving only affects infantry!

I do brother! I do.

[Quixus]

As far as we know now, you still can't just roll over a few grots, or purposely take them out with a drop pod. That's what vehicles should be able to do.

[Leonaides]

Is it a better situation than before? Yes. Landspeeders, attack bikes, dreadnoughts, baals, landraiders all got a lot better.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

With the smaller board sizes, and the lack of moving & shooting negative modifier, the dakka Baal predator seems like it just got a huge huge lift in effectiveness. And it will likely be one of the only tanks that can actually shoot its way out of combat. I know I can't wait to field my pair of Baal preds with my Crusader and shred everything on the board.

 

With heavy weapons losing their negative modifier, that makes Power of the Machine Spirit redundant. Should we expect an update to that rule?

Edited June 9, 2020 by Matarno - Lord of Skyfall

[Panzer]

Flamer Baals and Flamer Land Raiders are a go. Makes me almost regret not following through with the plan to buy a tank list late 7th (when we got the formations). Then again, with how things were this edition I was pretty happy I didn't follow through with it because it would've been a lot of wasted money lol

[Quixus]

Flamer Baals and Flamer Land Raiders are a go. Makes me almost regret not following through with the plan to buy a tank list late 7th (when we got the formations). Then again, with how things were this edition I was pretty happy I didn't follow through with it because it would've been a lot of wasted money lol

Now you can waste more money when you buy one ;)

[The Unseen]

I still don't think the Baal will be good, unless we get a way for it to advance and still shoot. But Fragioso's just got a lot better with a fist/HF and Frag Cannon loadout. Maybe even enough to make them casually ok. My Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are ohh so happy though.

[keeblerartillery]

Dakka redemptors may even be competitive

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I still don't think the Baal will be good, unless we get a way for it to advance and still shoot. But Fragioso's just got a lot better with a fist/HF and Frag Cannon loadout. Maybe even enough to make them casually ok. My Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are ohh so happy though.

Wait. 24" range assault canon, 36" heavy bolters. 12" movement.

What more could you want out if this tank?

[Morticon]

 

I still don't think the Baal will be good, unless we get a way for it to advance and still shoot. But Fragioso's just got a lot better with a fist/HF and Frag Cannon loadout. Maybe even enough to make them casually ok. My Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are ohh so happy though.

Wait. 24" range assault canon, 36" heavy bolters. 12" movement.

What more could you want out if this tank?

 

 

A viable point cost :P 

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

I still don't think the Baal will be good, unless we get a way for it to advance and still shoot. But Fragioso's just got a lot better with a fist/HF and Frag Cannon loadout. Maybe even enough to make them casually ok. My Land Speeders and Attack Bikes are ohh so happy though.

 

The Furioso with the frag cannon and HF got better how? The Baal is far superior for only 30 points more. The frag cannon at 8 inche range gets to shoot maybe once a game before the Dread is gone. I will take the assault cannon / heavy bolter loadout any day of the week over the Furioso. The threat range from a Baal is now 36 inches, compared to 16 inches with the Dread?

[The Unseen]

Except unless it gets a hefty points cut, that's still basically just a bunch of mediocre anti infantry firepower on an over-priced chassis without any stratagem support, in an army that chews up light infantry for breakfast with literally any infantry unit.

 

The twin assault cannon just isn't good now, its not high enough strength or damage to hurt tanks, no rending, and doesn't have the AP to reliably kill heavy infantry. It needed either 1 more strength, AP, or Damage and it would be great.

As is its just kinda bad at everything except killing guardsmen in the open. But we have bolters for that.

Short ranged and therefore hitting on 4s was just adding insult to injury.

And a razorback, at least currently, can bring that gun AND carry 6 bodies for substantially fewer points at the price of a single wound.

 

Now, if they give the Baal a way to advance and shoot, the flamer version might become interesting, because the flamestorm has a role, which is murdering heavy infantry with extreme prejudice with 2d6 str6 -2AP 2 damage, aka everything an assault cannon is not, limited by its piss poor range and inability to do anything if something manages to circumvent or survive its overwatch. Now it'll just keep burning stuff until its dead. Maybe with the smaller board size it might be OK even without advance and shoot, with it just advancing turn 1 with smoke then starting up the heretic bbq.

 

A furioso has a fairly threatening melee profile which the Baal definitely doesn't have, and now can't be bogged down in combat with infantry were its low # of attacks make it struggle, because now it can spit out 3d6 -1 ap Str5/6 autohits if you tag it in melee. Which makes it a threat that could put in work in an armor saturation list.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

Except unless it gets a hefty points cut, that's still basically just a bunch of mediocre anti infantry firepower on an over-priced chassis without any stratagem support, in an army that chews up light infantry for breakfast with literally any infantry unit.

 

The twin assault cannon just isn't good now, its not high enough strength or damage to hurt tanks, no rending, and doesn't have the AP to reliably kill heavy infantry. It needed either 1 more strength, AP, or Damage and it would be great.

As is its just kinda bad at everything except killing guardsmen in the open. But we have bolters for that.

Short ranged and therefore hitting on 4s was just adding insult to injury.

And a razorback, at least currently, can bring that gun AND carry 6 bodies for substantially fewer points at the price of a single wound.

 

Now, if they give the Baal a way to advance and shoot, the flamer version might become interesting, because the flamestorm has a role, which is murdering heavy infantry with extreme prejudice with 2d6 str6 -2AP 2 damage, aka everything an assault cannon is not, limited by its piss poor range and inability to do anything if something manages to circumvent or survive its overwatch. Now it'll just keep burning stuff until its dead. Maybe with the smaller board size it might be OK even without advance and shoot, with it just advancing turn 1 with smoke then starting up the heretic bbq.

 

A furioso has a fairly threatening melee profile which the Baal definitely doesn't have, and now can't be bogged down in combat with infantry were its low # of attacks make it struggle, because now it can spit out 3d6 -1 ap Str5/6 autohits if you tag it in melee. Which makes it a threat that could put in work in an armor saturation list.

 

I guess it depends on your local meta. I find that my Baal preds put in work against the shooty Ork armies that are based on the ITC meta lists. The volume of reliable firepower to shred away Grot shields, deal with any of the boys and do work against Mek Guns has saved me time and time again. Eldar lists of all variety also tend to get chewed up pretty well by the assault cannons.

 

These D6 weapons are really awesome until you roll a pair of 1s. Which is where the issue with the Frag Cannon comes in. It can theoretically shoot its way out with the Frag launcher, but not if the dice gods aren't on your side. In a world in which tagging from cheap fast units is the key to shutting down armor, I think the Baal comes out better here. Ever been tagged by a bunch of stupid Reaver jetbikes? Now they get the assault cannon to the face.

 

Maybe I just have an issue with D6 weapons, being burned by them too many times. Give me that fixed number of shots so I always know what I am working with. 8th felt like the edition that any model without a jump pack was a useless waste of points, so I find myself excited with these changes and a chance for the venerable tanks to have a fighting chance in a Blood Angels army again.

[Panzer]

Yeah the Dakka Baal Predator gets is just too expensive compared to the regular Dakka Predator. If anything the Flamer Baal Predator is an interesting option now but takes a turn or two until he can start shooting at things. Depending on the rest of the army the Flamer Land Raider is the better alternative still.