the BIG 9th edition room

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Brothers I'm 0-3 with my BT; so far I've been unable to make a good showing. I always seem to have the wrong tools for the job.  First loss against Custodes (1k points).  Second against Bloody Rose Sisters of Battle (1500 pts), and last night against Nihilak Necrons (25 Power kick-off to our crusade campaign, in which I not only lost but was tabled.)

 

Feels bad :-(

If you want, I have very much experience against Necrons ( I play them for myself ) and had a few games against Custodes and Sisters. We could discuss it on an extra list thread. How is your list looks like and what units are the gamewinners in enemy lists. What do you use for Stratagems. 

 

 

I appreciate that.  I play both Sisters and Necrons too.  I don't remember the game against Sisters and Custodes (they were several months ago). The recent game against Necrons was 25 power Crusade and was as follows:

 

Nihilak Dynasty

Overlord on CCB

-some melee weapon that ignored FnP shrugs

-Gauss Cannon

-res orb

-he had a warlord trait but don't remember what it was

 

20 Necron Warriors with Gauss Carbines (the 12" one with 2 shots)

5 Immortals with Gauss Blasters

 

My list was:

Primaris Chaplain (littany of protection)

10 Intercessors with auto bolt rifles and power sword

Remdemptor Dread with MPI, OGC, IRP and 2x SB

 

My plan, which I successfully pulled off on turn 1 and 2 was to unload rapid fire from the intercessors while wisdom of the ancients was in effect.  It worked well but I was only able to kill about 8 on turn 1 before he started rezzing.  I think the RedDread got a few more.  On turn 2 he burned his res orb and was back up to around 17 models I think.  On my turn 2 I burned him down to about 3 guys (I was getting -1 AP now from tactical doctrine which made a big difference, but not enough.  That included Reddred shooting.  I charged with Dred but i was bracketed to 5+ by this point so only killed 1 guy.   On turn 3 he countercharged Dred with imortals and killed him, meanwhile ccb came in and shot/charged my chaplain and intercessors. I wasn't able to do enough appreciable.  damage with my interecessors (wounding on 5+, no AP + living metal = no chance).  Tabled turn 4.

 

He put 'grizzled" on the 20 man warrior unit after the battle (6 + FnP). I honestly don't think i'll ever be able to destroy this unit in the campaign. I did the math and I need 150 str. 4 ap-1 shots to take this unit down in 1 turn.

[Squark]

 

 

Brothers I'm 0-3 with my BT; so far I've been unable to make a good showing. I always seem to have the wrong tools for the job.  First loss against Custodes (1k points).  Second against Bloody Rose Sisters of Battle (1500 pts), and last night against Nihilak Necrons (25 Power kick-off to our crusade campaign, in which I not only lost but was tabled.)

 

Feels bad :-(

If you want, I have very much experience against Necrons ( I play them for myself ) and had a few games against Custodes and Sisters. We could discuss it on an extra list thread. How is your list looks like and what units are the gamewinners in enemy lists. What do you use for Stratagems. 

 

 

I appreciate that.  I play both Sisters and Necrons too.  I don't remember the game against Sisters and Custodes (they were several months ago). The recent game against Necrons was 25 power Crusade and was as follows:

 

Nihilak Dynasty

Overlord on CCB

-some melee weapon that ignored FnP shrugs

-Gauss Cannon

-res orb

-he had a warlord trait but don't remember what it was

 

20 Necron Warriors with Gauss Carbines (the 12" one with 2 shots)

5 Immortals with Gauss Blasters

 

My list was:

Primaris Chaplain (littany of protection)

10 Intercessors with auto bolt rifles and power sword

Remdemptor Dread with MPI, OGC, IRP and 2x SB

 

My plan, which I successfully pulled off on turn 1 and 2 was to unload rapid fire from the intercessors while wisdom of the ancients was in effect.  It worked well but I was only able to kill about 8 on turn 1 before he started rezzing.  I think the RedDread got a few more.  On turn 2 he burned his res orb and was back up to around 17 models I think.  On my turn 2 I burned him down to about 3 guys (I was getting -1 AP now from tactical doctrine which made a big difference, but not enough.  That included Reddred shooting.  I charged with Dred but i was bracketed to 5+ by this point so only killed 1 guy.   On turn 3 he countercharged Dred with imortals and killed him, meanwhile ccb came in and shot/charged my chaplain and intercessors. I wasn't able to do enough appreciable.  damage with my interecessors (wounding on 5+, no AP + living metal = no chance).  Tabled turn 4.

 

He put 'grizzled" on the 20 man warrior unit after the battle (6 + FnP). I honestly don't think i'll ever be able to destroy this unit in the campaign. I did the math and I need 150 str. 4 ap-1 shots to take this unit down in 1 turn.

 

Couple of thoughts;

 

1) Necron Warrior Blobs have always been hard to deal with in Combat Patrols. 9e Nilkah especially so. This was always going to be an uphill battle, so I wouldn't let it get you down to much.

2) Crusade is very much a game of tailoring to your opponent's roster (That's why it starts with 50 PL Supply Limits and 25 PL combat patrols). Your opponent brought a list that was well tailored to deal with footslogging Marines (the only thing I question is the use of Gauss Reapers on a unit that wants to sit in his DZ, but maybe he was anticipating you trying to get in close). Your list was not well suited to dealing with a blob of heavy infantry and a durable, fast moving character. Seeing your opponent had access to the units he did, you needed access to AP -2 weapons with a decent fire rate, and a character with the mobility and melee power to match the CCB wherever it attacked (Or catch it off guard, if you brought a Jump Pack character who could leap over a screen). I'm curious to see what your Roster is, and what the mission was.

3) Related to the above- Your big mistake in list building, in my opinion, was trying to force multiply a unit ill-suited to the battle (The auto bolt rifle intercessors), instead of attacking your enemy's weaknesses. Your chaplain did little beyond force multiply for your Intercessors, so you essentially spent 15 PL (60% of your army) on a unit that was couldn't do much. Instead, I would have taken a single 5-man troop squad (Using bolt rifles or stalker bolt rifles, so as to out range warrior blobs and have innate AP), and chosen an HQ who could go toe-to-toe with the Command Barge, like a Captain or a Chaplain with Mantra of Strength. Then you still have PL leftover for something like Bladeguard Veterans or Agggressors, who would have been much better equipped to deal with the Warriors.

4) Your opponent spent two of his Requisition points to give that a Catacomb Command Barge a Relic and a Warlord Trait. You also started with a maxed out store of Requisition Points, so you should have spent at least one. If not... Ask your opponents if you can retroactively do so, since everyone is learning crusade for the first time here.

 

If you want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to, but you should probably start a separate thread in that case.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Squark

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ugggggh I’m not a fan of list tailoring. It’s better to build a versatile army list in my opinion. Even Templars need some decent shooting to keep the opponent honest. ;)

[Squark]

Ugggggh I’m not a fan of list tailoring. It’s better to build a versatile army list in my opinion. Even Templars need some decent shooting to keep the opponent honest. ;)

In most play environments? Sure. But Your order of battle is much larger than the army rosters you're building, and that's by design. GW is telling you to tailor your list to your opponent. You don't have to do that if you don't want to, I guess. But you're deliberately handicapping yourself, and you shouldn't expect your opponent to do so.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

You do not list tailor in Crusade. You agree on the size of the match with your opponent and build your armies before you know what the mission will be, or what the other person has. Then you select a mission and go from there. In fact, Crusade encourages a mixed force even more than standard 2,000 point games, because you don't know if the person your facing is going to bring mostly infantry, a tank, etc, and you need tools to deal with everything.

 

Can't imagine anyone would be cool with letting their opponent see what they brought then build to beat it at 25 pl. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

List tailoring is awful.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No, it's not in Crusade. It's just good sense. You have a generalised roster, and then have to pare it down for the games. When you have so little to play with, you need to be focussed, a generalised list at 500 points can lead to a really one sided game, and considering Crusade is meant to be fun, that's rubbish.

In other friendly games, it's also a requirement to make the game fun. Take Imperial Knights in 8th for instance. (Because in 9th, it's not as good example, because they suck.)

If you were going for a friendly game or fluffy game, and brought an all-comers list, and your opponent brought knights, you were going to have a rubbish game unless you had optimised your standard list for Knight killing. You would have no fun because they would be tearing through you, and your opponent wouldn't be having much fun, as they rampaged unchallenged.

 

In competitive play, I agree it makes little sense. But in friendly games, it's just courtesy.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Then when I see their list I’d change mine to tailor for it.

[Marshal Mittens]

9x19 what have you been running?

[Squark]

You do not list tailor in Crusade. You agree on the size of the match with your opponent and build your armies before you know what the mission will be, or what the other person has. Then you select a mission and go from there. In fact, Crusade encourages a mixed force even more than standard 2,000 point games, because you don't know if the person your facing is going to bring mostly infantry, a tank, etc, and you need tools to deal with everything.

 

Can't imagine anyone would be cool with letting their opponent see what they brought then build to beat it at 25 pl.

 

That's not what I meant. No, you don't know exactly what your opponent's army roster will be. You and your opponent both construct your army roster at the same, and you don't swap rosters until you're both finished. But you do know their faction, and you probably get to see each other's orders or battle (Not explicitly stated, but anyone hiding theirs is kind of suspect). You can and should make educated guesses about what you'll face. Of course, your opponent's doing the same thing at the same time, so there's an element of double bluffing here. But you can still avoid major mistakes, like bringing anti-horde weaponry against factions that are entirely composed of heavy Infantry.

 

To put it a more fluffy way; In crusade, you, the supreme commander of your force, receive a certain amount of intelligence about the upcoming battle before you muster your forces. Commanders who disregard that intelligence fail the Emperor/Greater Good/Boss/Chaos Gods/etc.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Squark

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Back peddling now .

[9x19 Parabellum]

9x19 what have you been running?

 

Taking my personal game history over into my own thread. Feel free to comment there.

 

 

 

Couple of thoughts;

 

 

 

1) Necron Warrior Blobs have always been hard to deal with in Combat Patrols. 9e Nilkah especially so. This was always going to be an uphill battle, so I wouldn't let it get you down to much.

2) Crusade is very much a game of tailoring to your opponent's roster (That's why it starts with 50 PL Supply Limits and 25 PL combat patrols). Your opponent brought a list that was well tailored to deal with footslogging Marines (the only thing I question is the use of Gauss Reapers on a unit that wants to sit in his DZ, but maybe he was anticipating you trying to get in close). Your list was not well suited to dealing with a blob of heavy infantry and a durable, fast moving character. Seeing your opponent had access to the units he did, you needed access to AP -2 weapons with a decent fire rate, and a character with the mobility and melee power to match the CCB wherever it attacked (Or catch it off guard, if you brought a Jump Pack character who could leap over a screen). I'm curious to see what your Roster is, and what the mission was.

3) Related to the above- Your big mistake in list building, in my opinion, was trying to force multiply a unit ill-suited to the battle (The auto bolt rifle intercessors), instead of attacking your enemy's weaknesses. Your chaplain did little beyond force multiply for your Intercessors, so you essentially spent 15 PL (60% of your army) on a unit that was couldn't do much. Instead, I would have taken a single 5-man troop squad (Using bolt rifles or stalker bolt rifles, so as to out range warrior blobs and have innate AP), and chosen an HQ who could go toe-to-toe with the Command Barge, like a Captain or a Chaplain with Mantra of Strength. Then you still have PL leftover for something like Bladeguard Veterans or Agggressors, who would have been much better equipped to deal with the Warriors.

4) Your opponent spent two of his Requisition points to give that a Catacomb Command Barge a Relic and a Warlord Trait. You also started with a maxed out store of Requisition Points, so you should have spent at least one. If not... Ask your opponents if you can retroactively do so, since everyone is learning crusade for the first time here.

 

If you want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to, but you should probably start a separate thread in that case.

 

 

Thanks and yeah, I'll take all this over to my personal plog thread.

Edited January 11, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[9x19 Parabellum]

To speak to the "list tailoring" commentary:

 

I did not and do not list tailor. As someone else said, I did do some double bluffing...for example I picked a unit of 10 intercessors with auto bolt rifles instead of the predictable assault intercessors, around which to build my large meaty unit, because I was hoping to throw my opponent off with this pick.  They have been fantastic.  But in general I paint and build the units I like I include them regardless of whether or not they are considered good.  My 10 man veteran intercessor unit for example is proof of this - I know they are not great but I really like them. I would prefer to do a 6 man BGV squad and impulsor bomb them but I don't have a second unit of 3 models, and I'm not going to buy indomitus just for those, so I have to wait for the kits to come out which...who knows when they will get here?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

You do not list tailor in Crusade. You agree on the size of the match with your opponent and build your armies before you know what the mission will be, or what the other person has. Then you select a mission and go from there. In fact, Crusade encourages a mixed force even more than standard 2,000 point games, because you don't know if the person your facing is going to bring mostly infantry, a tank, etc, and you need tools to deal with everything.

 

Can't imagine anyone would be cool with letting their opponent see what they brought then build to beat it at 25 pl.

 

That's not what I meant. No, you don't know exactly what your opponent's army roster will be. You and your opponent both construct your army roster at the same, and you don't swap rosters until you're both finished. But you do know their faction, and you probably get to see each other's orders or battle (Not explicitly stated, but anyone hiding theirs is kind of suspect). You can and should make educated guesses about what you'll face. Of course, your opponent's doing the same thing at the same time, so there's an element of double bluffing here. But you can still avoid major mistakes, like bringing anti-horde weaponry against factions that are entirely composed of heavy Infantry.

 

To put it a more fluffy way; In crusade, you, the supreme commander of your force, receive a certain amount of intelligence about the upcoming battle before you muster your forces. Commanders who disregard that intelligence fail the Emperor/Greater Good/Boss/Chaos Gods/etc.

In our crusade campaign all of the rosters were shared to every player on a shared Google Sheet. We didn't know what they would bring to a game, (unless the game size was the same as everything on the roster), but you could take a good guess.

 

The thing is, we could then tailor our roster if we wanted, and remove or add units to match a game, but it was largely pointless, as removing a unit, to add another would kill it's XP and battle traits. But everyone knew what everyone else had, so like Squark says, it's a bluffing exercise.

Its also complicated by the fact in Crusade that you have fixed size units in the roster, so it can be difficult to max out a list from it, because you can't drop a weapon or a squad member to maximise efficiency, you're stuck with what you have.

So while you can tailor, the other restrictions present in Crusade make it much more difficult, and winning isn't that important anyway.

[Brother Kraskor]

A question brothers. I'm thinking about getting a box of Incursors to set up as two five-man squads for early objective grabbing ahead of the main force. But do you think using the Reivers box and assembling them with the carbines would make them an acceptable stand-in for Incursors? I just think the Reivers scream Templar a lot more, much more aggressive. Would you have an issue with this as an opponent/has anybody done something similar?

 

Also means a healthy supply of skull helmets for Chaplains and so forth. 

[Squark]

A question brothers. I'm thinking about getting a box of Incursors to set up as two five-man squads for early objective grabbing ahead of the main force. But do you think using the Reivers box and assembling them with the carbines would make them an acceptable stand-in for Incursors? I just think the Reivers scream Templar a lot more, much more aggressive. Would you have an issue with this as an opponent/has anybody done something similar?

 

Also means a healthy supply of skull helmets for Chaplains and so forth.

Turning Rievers into Incursors is pretty common. The Scopes and backpack bits can easily be attached to a Riever's carbine and backpack. The main bit to use would be the paired combat knife sheaths, although I suppose you could double up on combat knife scabards instead.

[Brother Kraskor]

Thank you frater. Second question, what do we think about Hellblasters? We lost a bit of mortal wound protection on them it seems but with a nearby Marshal I'd have thought you could overcharge fairly safely?

[Charlo]

Thank you frater. Second question, what do we think about Hellblasters? We lost a bit of mortal wound protection on them it seems but with a nearby Marshal I'd have thought you could overcharge fairly safely?

 

They're OKAY.

 

The Assault version getting the additional shots is nice as are the Heavy getting base Damage 2!

[Brother Kraskor]

So maybe for us best to have them in the Assault configuration, moving up as a mobile firebase supporting the assault elements?

[SirJyo]

More expensive but a bit more durable and with deepstrike and movement, plasma inceptors are prefered imo.

 

Then again, flying gravis is pretty absurd.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Then again, flying gravis is pretty absurd.

 

Yep. Every time I consider getting into these guys, I look at those phat bastards and they remind me of some kind of renaissance fat flying cherubs in a Michelangelo painting.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you ran a Marshal and two Chappies how would you configure them ?

[redmapa]

Depends on the list really, I would get one Chaplain to buff the offense and anoter to sit back to buff whatever is staying in the back to shoot at the enemy. Marshall with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is still a solid choice imo.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Then again, flying gravis is pretty absurd.

Don't we have flying dreads in HH now? Or I guess it only jumps...

 

At any rate the flying gravis works on the same in-universe-principle as the flying tanks, and has thruster size to match their bulk, something we can't really say for surpressors, which i find more of a problem.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Then again, flying gravis is pretty absurd.

Don't we have flying dreads in HH now? Or I guess it only jumps...

 

At any rate the flying gravis works on the same in-universe-principle as the flying tanks, and has thruster size to match their bulk, something we can't really say for surpressors, which i find more of a problem.

I agree. And Inceptors deploy from orbit, so they need heavy armour to avoid burning up on entry.