Heavy Intercessors

[Blindhamster]

Tactical Marines can functionally have 2 specials at 5 man thanks to the Combi weapon access on a Sergeant and at 10 men can have 3 upgraded weapons. They can also add a Heavy weapon at 5 men and combine that with a Combi-plasma on the Sergeant, for quite substantial firepower in our Troops section.

 

This is head and shoulders above a single Grenade Launcher per 5 models.

 

I accept theme and model size, folk may not want to add in Tactical Marines to their all Primaris force (I really don't like mixing them either) but as a fire support unit, Intercessors do not perform better than Tactical Marines when both have 2 wounds a model.

 

As I've said, there is a place for each Troops choice in Marines lists right now, but with Heavy Intercessors added to the mix, their direct comparison is Intercessors in role. Everything else is quite specialised or much cheaper for the weapons. The points costs are crucial but I don't think Heavy Intercessors can be worth their points without invalidating Intercessors.

 

I don't think Hellblasters are in a good place either now.

i dunno, I think if grenade launchers remain cheap and are now combi weapons (as they appear to be) then having a full 10 man squad of X Bolt Rifle shots plus 2 blast grenades or krak grenades, they're pretty good. Someone could mathhammer it I guess and see how they end up.

 

And they're better in melee than tacticals.

 

Point I'm making is, they're better for the midfield role than tacticals, and they'll be better than heavy intercessors for offensive output too. So you take tacticals to provide some more specialist shots (and you're literally taking the tacticals for those 2-3 guns), or you take intercessors for a unit that has (marginally) better base shooting than the tacticals, and now has 2 special weapons on top (which may not be as good as a plasma gun etc, but will almost certainly be much cheaper) and that you can be comfortable can hold their own in melee vs basically anything that isn't a specialist melee unit (especially, again, for blood angels).

 

I'm not saying Intercessors are better than tacticals, I'm saying they're better for a midfield unit. IMO they're still better than incursors or infiltrators too (although infiltrators role to provide the anti deep strike bubble is a big deal!)

[Captain Idaho]

I totally agree Intercessors are better at the midfield role than Tacticals, when not taking advantage of the utility of heavy and special weapons at other times of course. (Then it's a matter of unit role preference etc)

 

My concern is Heavy Intercessors directly competing for the midfield role from Intercessors. And Hellblasters regarding certain weapon choices.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think heavy Intercessors vs. Intercessors is going to depend on your chapter the more aggressive the chapter the more they will stick with Intercessors. Fists and iron hands IMO will probably go with the heavies.

 

For hellblasters I think it just depends on what the new melta and other improved options cost. The third shot with the assualt variant is nice though.

[Blindhamster]

I think I'd have heavies further back, they're tough and have long range guns, shouldnt need much baby sitting generally. I'd use intercessors up front due to their better fit with my more aggressive chapter.

 

Hellblasters do indeed kinda suck right now

[bigtrouble]

Should the points cost for 10 of these be less than, equal to or greater than 10 hellblasters? Probably 3 ppm higher?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Imagine 10 heavy Intercessors as Iron Hands accompanied by Feirros & a Father of the Future-Apothecary...and you need to push that unit off an objective.

 

GW is out of their minds.

[Minsc]

Imagine 10 heavy Intercessors as Iron Hands accompanied by Feirros & a Father of the Future-Apothecary...and you need to push that unit off an objective.

 

GW is out of their minds.

I'd just go for a different objective. 

[jaxom]

My concern is Heavy Intercessors directly competing for the midfield role from Intercessors. And Hellblasters regarding certain weapon choices.

 

I think I'd have heavies further back, they're tough and have long range guns, shouldnt need much baby sitting generally. I'd use intercessors up front due to their better fit with my more aggressive chapter.

 

Hellblasters do indeed kinda suck right now

 

Regarding midfield control. I think it'll come down to what a person wants. I did some preliminary number crunching and basically, on a per wound basis, Heavies are slightly more survivable while Intercessors do slightly more damage. Like +/- 0.5. The key difference is whether they're shooting at or being shot at by 2W/2D versus 3W/3D. A lot of 40k spaces are talking/writing about 2W space marines and 2D weapons; this was true with Codex2.0 and more so now. The immediate reply from many was, "Now Terminators are three wounds, so this in an environment they can do well in." There was a lot more to it than that, but it does address the idea of negating damage efficiency of 2D weapons with 3W models. Heavy Intercessors are another tool in that toolbox. They also add another tool to the 2D weapon toolbox with their Executor Bolt Rifles. Perhaps more interesting, is they can take a Heavy 2 3D version (1 per 5) with those for potshots that can actually drop enemy Aggressors, Destroyers, Terminators, etc.

 

Beyond that, we've seen Codex2.0 add other cogs to differentiate roles beyond data slates. Obscuration powers that only work on Phobos armour, a slew of Intercessor-only and weapon specific Stratagems. I think it's likely we'll see something similar for Gravis (at least Gravis-specific strats).

 

And yeah, Hellblasters are not great, but I think that's because plasma is not in a great place anymore. And that's a whole other topic than Heavy Intercessors.

[Lucerne]

Imagine 10 heavy Intercessors as Iron Hands accompanied by Feirros & a Father of the Future-Apothecary...and you need to push that unit off an objective.

 

GW is out of their minds.

GW knows exactly what they're doing: peddling the new miniatures since the health of the game isn't a priority for them. They're fishing for the wallets of whales, plain and simple.

 

In fact, honestly, there's a case to be made for outright boycotting lists that bring heavy intercessors if the balance is as bad as it could be. After all, if you give GW the benefit of the doubt and assume everyone else will get something to handle this at some point, there's no sense playing against Gravis-based Marine lists in this environment until that happens, right?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Oxydo]

 

Imagine 10 heavy Intercessors as Iron Hands accompanied by Feirros & a Father of the Future-Apothecary...and you need to push that unit off an objective.

 

GW is out of their minds.

GW knows exactly what they're doing: peddling the new miniatures since the health of the game isn't a priority for them. They're fishing for the wallets of whales, plain and simple.

 

In fact, honestly, there's a case to be made for outright boycotting lists that bring heavy intercessors if the balance is as bad as it could be. After all, if you give GW the benefit of the doubt and assume everyone else will get something to handle this at some point, there's no sense playing against Gravis-based Marine lists in this environment until that happens, right?

 

 

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." The "new models always gets good rules" pattern you're seeing is pretty much just due to confirmation bias because you see a lot of the new models that are good/great and not much of the medicore/bad ones. For instance it wouldn't have taken a bunch of CA pts reductions, datasheet changes and/or strategem support over a span of 2~ years to make a lot of the primaris releases competitive if they always made new models have great rules.

It's the same case for the "FW models are OP" mentality really. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Lucerne - I really don't think they're gonna to be that good. The hypothetical unit from the post you quoted is gonna to be around 280-300 points before characters. Its tough but there are plenty of options for going after it and most missions will have 5 other objectives.

[Minsc]

Mutilators got released 2011 iirc. I can't believe that people still in 2020 push the "new models = op rules" narrative.
It's been proven over and over that it's more chance than actual thought that dictates if a new unit get good rules or not. 

With that said, calling for potential boycotts against lists with Heavy Intercessors already is hyperbole that would make dakkadakka proud.
Let's at least wait for the codex to drop shall we? Personally I think they'll be fine, their "offensive output per point" is quite low. 

[Ishagu]

Honestly these guys aren't game breaking in the slightest. I intend to run them because the models looks great, however.

[Lucerne]

Honestly these guys aren't game breaking in the slightest. I intend to run them because the models looks great, however.

I take it you intend to run 30 of them? Out of pure love of the models, naturally.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Ishagu]

 

 

Honestly these guys aren't game breaking in the slightest. I intend to run them because the models looks great, however.

I take it you intend to run 30 of them? Out of pure love of the models, naturally.

Only 5 or 10. I think regular Intercessors are a lot more flexible.

[Blindhamster]

similar for me, i'll probably buy more, but doubt id ever run more than 10 - going to be too many points.

[Riddlesworth]

 

 

Honestly these guys aren't game breaking in the slightest. I intend to run them because the models looks great, however.

I take it you intend to run 30 of them? Out of pure love of the models, naturally.

Power level to points translation they'll he 140-170 points for a minimum squad. Go check the equivalent intercessor firepower for 140-170 points. The sky most certainly isn't falling.

 

If the chapter command upgrade isn't too pricy and they're on the 140 side, I could see me replacing 15 incursors and 3 bladeguard with 15 of these boys as my troops. Because what I want from my troops is to get on objectives and not die, so T5 and 3W is great. If they're on the 170 side, it depends on what happens to outriders and captain on bike datasheets (ill run a unit of 6 and combat squad to fit into a patrol)

[Lucerne]

 

 Because what I want from my troops is to get on objectives and not die, so T5 and 3W is great.

 

So, in other words, you want to avoid gameplay mechanics?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Riddlesworth]

 

Because what I want from my troops is to get on objectives and not die, so T5 and 3W is great.

 

So, in other words, you want to avoid gameplay mechanics?

Sorry, I don't understand. Could you explain please? I don't want to pick a fight over strawmanning my hyperbole if that's not what you meant.

[Lucerne]

 

 

Because what I want from my troops is to get on objectives and not die, so T5 and 3W is great.

So, in other words, you want to avoid gameplay mechanics?

Sorry, I don't understand. Could you explain please? I don't want to pick a fight over strawmanning my hyperbole if that's not what you meant.

 

Look, without getting into a full discussion here, that reasoning being enabled in the first place is kind of a problem with the unit because it brings a baseball bat to a game of rock/paper/scissors, so to speak. Not going to engage further, but I do consider it a problem.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[ST.Lazarus]

Imagine 10 heavy Intercessors as Iron Hands accompanied by Feirros & a Father of the Future-Apothecary...and you need to push that unit off an objective.

 

GW is out of their minds.

 

It's so weird, now you can put 12 aggresors with ferrios and a Apothecary on an objective and I would argue that they are harder to shift than some heavy intercessors. Objective secure to very little and the heavys fight worse in cc than aggressors.

[Karhedron]

7 power implies they will be around 28-ish points per model. At that price they are a bit more durable point-for-point than regular Intercessors, particularly vs 2D weapons (although anything doing a flat 3D will make a real mess of them).

 

Conversely they are less killy point-for-point than Intercessors with shooting and significantly worse in melee with fewer attacks and no special weapon option on the Serg. I actually like this a lot as it suggests they can fill the niche of being tough Objective holders without obsoleting regular Intercessors who will out-perform them offensively.

 

30 Heavy Intercessors with an Apothecary will indeed be very hard to delete but will cost nearly 1000 points and won't actually kill very much, especially if they get tagged in melee.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Karhedron

[Oxydo]

 

Look, without getting into a full discussion here, that reasoning being enabled in the first place is kind of a problem with the unit because it brings a baseball bat to a game of rock/paper/scissors, so to speak. Not going to engage further, but I do consider it a problem.

 

 

 

 

You are aware what custodes troops look stat- and rulewise? Kataphron Breachers or plaguemarines when they get 2 wounds for that matter have the same/almost the same durability.

 

Currently, I'm not really seeing a point for Heavy Intercessors in my lists because they look to be wasted holding backfield objectives and appear to not do enough damage, especially in melee which is kinda important for taking and holding midfield/enemy backline objectives, compared to intercessors or tacticals. Might as well grab some aggressors and make sure whatever is trying to contest the objective is dead and gone.

[jaxom]

I think it may have less to do with the quality of the stat line in a vacuum and more what may be possible when looked at in the Iron Hands defense castle (T5 3W 3+[2+,1+ depending on Psysteel or Cover] 5++/5+++). As ST. Lazarus mentioned, this is equivalent to doing it with Aggressors. I think the difference is that the Heavy Intercessors have the range to sit on an objective anywhere on the board and likely to be in range of something. The Executor (42" heavy, D2) version provides nice synergy with Calculated Fury and is good at killing 2W models in what will likely be a 2W rich environment. It's probably very expensive; but it may be worthwhile.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Can we please not stink this thread up since the other thread was closed on it in amicus?