2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[Dracos]

I'm happy for Firstborn but ticked off Primaris no longer represent the Lore in any reasonable interpretation 

[jaxom]

The game really doesn’t have the granularity to do so except in the broadest of strokes.

 

Edit: fixed spelling

Edited August 15, 2020 by jaxom

[War Angel]

I'm happy for Firstborn but ticked off Primaris no longer represent the Lore in any reasonable interpretation

 

To be fair, a space Marine Bolter is bigger than a guardsmen Bolter in the fluff, but on the table it didn’t mean a thing (of course 8th did change that a little)

 

Primaris marines are still tougher through strats. It’s alright.

[N1SB]

Fraters, listening to you and thinking about what you guys are saying, and I really do think it IS a combination of:

 

• GW's marketing analytics (regarding Inventory Turnover)
• Customer feedback (directly from playtesters or via FLGS/Redshirts)
• What the GW game studio devs could implement simply

 

The biggest caveat, now that I thought about it, isn't just about Primaris vs. Firstborn Marines, it's Primaris vs. ALL MEQs.

 

You're talking about Chaos, but also Grey Knights, etc.  I think that's how GW's seeing things.

 

 

 

I don't think there's a simple answer; this is something that's got lots of different aspects: commercial, historical and in terms of gameplay.

 

<some snippage, but I think Brother Apologist nailed it>

 

In short, giving the 'new Marines' a real selling point in game terms (an advantage of a wound) during 8th ed. gave them the best chance of success. Now their sales have levelled off, in commercial terms it's sensible to try to revitalise some stock that has languished.

 

There are also the very practical commercial reasons not to attempt to replace multiple successful SKU in one fell swoop – it would have been impractical and very risky to remove all the old kits; but equally awkward commercially to have tried to introduce a simple rescaled Tactical Squad, to be followed by replacements for all the old kits. Primaris were a good hybrid of familiar and new; and I reckon that thread ran through everything about them – from planning to release to follow-up. The 2W adjustment for the older range is simply the end of that plan.

 

 

• Inventory Turnover by SKU - it's not just inventory, like GW has all these boxes of Tac Squads that need selling.  It's a rate, it's like X boxes per month by products.  GW would be like "Primaris are moving faster than we can keep up with, but Firstborn are slower than expected, let's balance that out."

 

It's actually great to talk to other Warhammer players about things like this, because Mathhammer is a great analogy.

 

 

So here's a better analogy for what I was trying to conceptualise, even for myself: you know how Space Marine Chapters are supposed to maintain 1,000 Marines?

 

Obviously you don't want less than 1,000 because then you have a depleted force, but you actually don't want more than 1,000 because than the Inquisition starts looking your direction, it's a balancing act.  But then all these Chapters have different problems doing that.  Crimson Fists have been undermanned since Rynn's World/1st ed.  Blood Angels and their Successors continuously lose some numbers to the Black Rage.  Black Templars and Space Wolves just ignore the stares of the Inquisition.  So even though most Chapters try to maintain that 1,000, they have to adapt to their circumstances, and I imagine those like Crimson Fists and Blood Angels focus more on recruitment than, say, a new all-Primaris Chapter that don't face the same issues.

 

So I reckon GW is trying to do something like this not just for Loyalists, or Primaris, or Firsborn, but all across the MEQ range, including Chaos and Grey Knights.  They probably have some internal number in their minds, some rule-of-thumb number.  So regarding those 3 points I consolidated from everyone here:

 

• GW's marketing analytics (regarding Inventory Turnover) - without even knowing the particulars, GW must have some dashboard or spreadsheet that someone prepares or is automatically updated to track the rate all their miniatures sell through to customers.  They probably noticed Primaris sell like crazy (i.e. the Indomitus set in 15 minutes) while other MEQs aren't moving as fast...perhaps it's worse for Chaos or GK, but worse than Primaris.  They want to get them back to some sort of level, probably still varies, but just balance out the product mix a little so they neither sell out or not sell at all.
   
• Customer feedback (directly from playtesters or via FLGS/Redshirts) - they're probably saying the exact same things we are, it's actually been really hard to justify using Firstborn Marines, or CSM, or GK.  If anything their Redshirts, like all salespeople, are the canaries in the coal mines and sensed this early on.
   
• What the GW game studio devs could implement simply - so the problem ends up with product development, the rules/Codex-writing devs.  What can they do?  They got to do this across-the-board thing without having to re-write every single detail, so screw it, every full-fledged MEQ from Loyalist to Chaos gets 2 Wounds.  Tactical Squads still have more flexibility with a Heavy Weapon, Primaris still good and probably preferred due to their better Wargear and 2 Attacks, but it's achievable, actionable, they just got to adjust points costs a bit upwards like we saw with TacMarines.

 

This sequence suggests something I think that is more realistic: no one has to tell the devs to specifically sell more Firstborn MEQs, just that no players are taking them.  The devs naturally want every unit to have some use, otherwise what's the point of even writing their datasheet.  It happens the players they want to please are also the customers the GW wants to sell to, therefore sometimes capitalism actually works as intended.

 

In short, despite having a real business impact imho, it may or may not have have been some top-down sales-driven mandate from the new CEO, or a bottom-up customer request.  Sometimes things just align.  It's kinda funny that doesn't happen as often as it should.

 

So it's not trying to reach an exact number like how a Chapter maintains 1,000 Marines exactly, but it's at least trying to release the pressure valve of red hot growth for Primaris and giving a bit more steam to the Firstborn MEQs, just get them both trending back to something that they can manage without selling out in 15 minutes while the rest of the stuck linger on the shelves forever.

 

I really look forward to making my Crusade of OldMarines who are just making contact with a Torchbearer fleet.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I think they're working on firstborn because this is the last major Primaris wave. There will be more primaris releases obviously but I think they'll be smaller and more focused on filling niches. So now is the time to adjust everything around them, to keep the first born only crowd (which is still sizable) and make Chaos and GK relevant.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think they are just trying to let everyone know that there are Marines, and this is their stat-line. We know the Primaris models were a Marine re-scale & re-proportion, and they needed the time to get people used to Movie Marine stats, and they needed to justify a time period of "Primaris" becoming the norm of Astartes - whether that will be reflected in the lore or not rectifying the original template with the new organs or if we and GW need to go there (Lord knows it really doesn't matter much to me personally, Marines are Marines, never needed new organs to justify things, IMO) I don't know or wish to speculate.

 

I don't think GW really anticipated that there would be an almost battle line drawing regarding Primaris in the wider hobby community to turn hobbiests on each other and lead to so much disrespect amongst player. I think they were just trying to introduce new models they thought were cool and wanted people to buy without blanket invalidating people's collections - I think they were trying to find a lore method to allow people to justify both proportion types in an army at once as well. I don't know that GW really felt that there would be so much pushback on that concept either.

 

So I think that really leads to this "Hey, Marines are Marines - play with what you want at the porportion layout you want" - non-Primaris models should be able to be equipped with bolt rifles easy enough, or come up with some good conversion work for them, and based on our own Fraters' works, we know that Primaris can look like and utilize the classic bolter and other armaments just fine as well.

 

Personally, I hope this comes to pass and GW just moves to a solid Marines are Marines stance and drops the division - armament can easily determine what type of squad is what, as can variations on paint scheme.

[Dracos]

So they tricked us into buying models that have worse rules by waiting to make them all the same for three years?

[Bryan Blaire]

I mean how did they trick you into purchases? Purchases are on each individual person... it's not like they told anyone they'd be fed or have shelter/love for life/a little while if you made the purchase. Everyone knew they weren't a necessity.

 

I bought the models because I thought they looked good and I planned on doing some cool stuff with them, including converting some to have standard bolters and hopefully even some heavy weapons.

 

If others bought them for rules superiority for an Edition, like any other rules chasing, that's on the purchaser, they made that choice. GW can change the rules at any time.

 

If people are unhappy with their purchases, they are always free to rid themselves of them in any fashion they feel appropriate/provides benefit.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I think they are just trying to let everyone know that there are Marines, and this is their stat-line. We know the Primaris models were a Marine re-scale & re-proportion, and they needed the time to get people used to Movie Marine stats, and they needed to justify a time period of "Primaris" becoming the norm of Astartes - whether that will be reflected in the lore or not rectifying the original template with the new organs or if we and GW need to go there (Lord knows it really doesn't matter much to me personally, Marines are Marines, never needed new organs to justify things, IMO) I don't know or wish to speculate.

 

I don't think GW really anticipated that there would be an almost battle line drawing regarding Primaris in the wider hobby community to turn hobbiests on each other and lead to so much disrespect amongst player. I think they were just trying to introduce new models they thought were cool and wanted people to buy without blanket invalidating people's collections - I think they were trying to find a lore method to allow people to justify both proportion types in an army at once as well. I don't know that GW really felt that there would be so much pushback on that concept either.

 

So I think that really leads to this "Hey, Marines are Marines - play with what you want at the porportion layout you want" - non-Primaris models should be able to be equipped with bolt rifles easy enough, or come up with some good conversion work for them, and based on our own Fraters' works, we know that Primaris can look like and utilize the classic bolter and other armaments just fine as well.

 

Personally, I hope this comes to pass and GW just moves to a solid Marines are Marines stance and drops the division - armament can easily determine what type of squad is what, as can variations on paint scheme.

I think that this is a really great summary of GW's reasoning for how the marine re-scaling project has played out.  The one thing that they did that I think really hurt them in this effort and brought some unneeded and unwanted distinction between the new and old marines that you didn't mention is the restrictions to transports.  That really sort of drove home the dividing line between the primaris and the firstborn in the game, and felt arbitrary and caused at least me quite a bit of annoyance.  If you had some sick Land Raiders you wanted to carry your newer bigger marines in, well, they were sort of invalidated.  Outside of that unforced error, I think the whole project was sort of an impossible situation with regards to keeping everyone happy. 

[War Angel]

I’ll wait until I see the rest of the rules, but right now, Primaris are still better, your paying 2 points for -1ap, few cases where thats not going to be useful.

 

Not sure about our Phobos units, but maybe they get some love.

 

Wish we got psyker abilities that had some teeth.

[WrathOfTheLion]

So they tricked us into buying models that have worse rules by waiting to make them all the same for three years?

I don't understand. How does increasing the firstborn to 2w 'trick' you? The Primaris units aren't any worse, now at least some people can use their armies and models. I have and like both Primaris and firstborn. The disparity was not something I was fond of, and I even would like them to go further and remove the vehicle distinction on top of it.

 

This was bound to happen, I really don't know how this was a shock. Chaos Space Marines still exist, and the disparity was completely untenable to the longevity of 40k.

 

On the equipment changes, the Primaris kits have many of those weapons. Heavy bolters are on Repulsor tanks. Multimeltas will be on Gladiators and Invader ATVs.

Edited August 16, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[N1SB]

Fraters, I hear ya, but Brother Dracos may be bringing up a sentiment that many other players/customers may share.  Let's hear him out, these are just his musings.

 

So they tricked us into buying models that have worse rules by waiting to make them all the same for three years?

 

Tell us your feelings, Brother.  Do you mean worse rules like Primaris are limited in which Transports they can take?  Or do you feel just a general sense of bait & switch?

[Lucerne]

As a firstborn fan who never cared for Primaris being "their own thing", I can't say that I'm very sympathetic at all to fans trying to throw the Firstborn back under the bus they've been trapped under for years.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

As a firstborn fan who never cared for Primaris being "their own thing", I can't say that I'm very sympathetic at all to fans trying to throw the Firstborn back under the bus they've been trapped under for years.

Something we can agree on.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

As a firstborn fan who never cared for Primaris being "their own thing", I can't say that I'm very sympathetic at all to fans trying to throw the Firstborn back under the bus they've been trapped under for years.

 

 

Agreed. It's hard to avoid having every conversation about the recent wounds change devolve into this sentiment, but after having seen my boys dragged through the mud for all of eighth I wish that Primaris players could chill out. I can't say that we haven't been noisy about being left behind in the past, but when every new book, 95 percent of Marine releases, and the entire future of the game revolves around their units, it's extremely hard to be sympathetic. At the very worst Primaris will wind up being equal to Firstborn. That is the bottom of the barrel life is horrible situation for them, to be Equals with normal marines.

 

Having an equal stat sheet, which it almost certainly will not be, won't effect the fluff or look of the army, and can only help out other marine players who haven't been having so much fun lately. Let's all just be happy that the game seems to be improving and GW is breaking out of the rut they've been stuck in.

[Dracos]

How does it not come off as a bait and switch? They feed you this line about Primaris are tougher (+1A) and faster (+1A) and stronger than the original Marines, and your like cool. Finally, I have to buy a new set of Marines but these guys play how I felt my Marines should through since 2nd edition. 

 

Then oh hey what the heck jsut trow all those rules back on the original Marines. Forget all that lore about bigger stronger faster ... but keep them behind a pay wall of more expensive tanks, dreadnoughts and transports. I'm not against Firstborn getting a 2W but I am against the fact that the whiners who were to cheap (they'll say invested) to start a new army saying they were ugly - dumbest subjective comment ever - or didn't feel like real Marines because they were too powerful are nor - hurrah - this is what my guys should have been to begin with . . . and suddenly bolters are magically 30" also. 

 

Have all the good Primaris stuff and the good cheap support units (2W Devestators for instance are uber good) to boot. Primaris are a better melee option maybe but melees not exactly most Marines strongest phase to do damage in

 

Yeah bait and switch

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

How does it not come off as a bait and switch? They feed you this line about Primaris are tougher (+1A) and faster (+1A) and stronger than the original Marines, and your like cool. Finally, I have to buy a new set of Marines but these guys play how I felt my Marines should through since 2nd edition. 

 

Then oh hey what the heck jsut trow all those rules back on the original Marines. Forget all that lore about bigger stronger faster ... but keep them behind a pay wall of more expensive tanks, dreadnoughts and transports. I'm not against Firstborn getting a 2W but I am against the fact that the whiners who were to cheap (they'll say invested) to start a new army saying they were ugly - dumbest subjective comment ever - or didn't feel like real Marines because they were too powerful are nor - hurrah - this is what my guys should have been to begin with . . . and suddenly bolters are magically 30" also. 

 

Have all the good Primaris stuff and the good cheap support units (2W Devestators for instance are uber good) to boot. Primaris are a better melee option maybe but melees not exactly most Marines strongest phase to do damage in

 

Yeah bait and switch

 

 

You are ridiculous.

 

If you bought Primaris only for their stronger stats you deserve what you got. You should have bought them because you like their fluff, appearance, or had some sort of connection with their place in your army. It was always gross how hard GW was pushing them as tougher and stronger, and blatently transparent that every time they wrote that into the fluff or posted it in an article it was a commercial. An advertisement. They sold you super good boy uber marines and you payed for them. You should have known better.

 

If you honestly like Primaris marines then you have nothing to worry about. They're still as cool and true scale as they were before. But trying to claim that any of us Firstborn players were mad at Primaris because they were 'too powerful' is disingenuous. Our argument was always that they should have been equals from the beginning, either Primaris come down or we go up.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Wow, taste is subjective? Who knew? It's almost as if my dislike for primaris visually and in the lore isn't universal! My decision to not purchase any models that I don't like the look of is dumb, you say? So the flipside is that I should buy models I don't like, don't want, and can't afford (my wife was preggers was Primaris dropped) because...you think my taste is "dumb."

 

Wow, dude.

[jaxom]

People have a variety of reasons for doing many things in this hobby. At the end of the day we're either all ridiculous or none of us are.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well. Wounds don't equal Toughness. Toughness equals Toughness. Primaris and standard Astartes have the same Toughness. They aren't any stronger either. So if you were basing the rules on that fluff, it's never been that way, both types of Marines are the same there the whole time.

 

The extra Wound I always thought was due to the Belisarian Furnace making the Primaris get back up after they should be dead. Now, for why the standard Marines are getting that as well - couldn't tell you - not sure it will even be reflected in the fluff. But I don't mind it at all - like you said, Draco, Marines should probably have always been 2W.

 

I really don't know why people are assuming that the Veteran kit is somehow reflective of all Marines' new stat line - the WHC didn't say that all Marines are getting an extra attack and that all bolters are also getting +6" range.

 

Also, if Devastators are a better option - well, they are Marines and in the same Codex as the Primaris units, so Primaris can use them just like standard Astartes. You can even work on modeling them as Primaris Marines if you really want to.

 

I'm not understanding how you feel "bait and switched" - why? Because you chased the rules and made purchases?

 

I made similar purchases probably (although I haven't bought any Transports/Tanks yet), but not for the rules, for the models themselves - if GW changed the Biovore tomorrow to do something completely different from what they have for the past five editions (or whatever), does that mean GW bait and switched people who bought the Biovores last edition for the rules? Doesn't mean that at all.

 

Seriously, this flip side of the Primaris/standard Astartes divide is just as silly as those upset that the Primaris had better rules than standard Astartes was last Edition. Some weird, weird sour grapes going around.

[jaxom]

Here's what seems to be the rub. Eighth edition rolls out and Primaris are "the way marines should be" for many players. They invest in the new kits, the lore, etc because they can finally play marines in way that better reflects what they feel the lore describes. Now, all the old models/kits that they passed over (due to effectively being slightly better Sisters of Battle) now also feel like "the way marines should be." So if players only jumped to Primaris because they felt it was the only option to "feel like marines," perhaps selling old units or not spending on older kits they prefer aesthetically (but didn't play like they thought marines should), then this situation would be rather aggravating.

 

Personally, I don't think anyone at GW Snidely Whiplashed this together as an evil plot. I think it's the culmination of people having to make creative decisions (lore) based off business needs (can't wholesale replace a line as big as the Marines at once) and then dealing with the reality that every player of marines in eighth pointed towards that the faction type (all Astartes of any sort) feels better to play at 2W base.

[Malakithe]

Im firmly in the camp of moving the stat lines closer to each other is to ease and prepare for the full and final transition to full Primaris and the moving of all First Born to Legends. Still some years down the road but GW knows how to play the long game.

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't get the "moving standard Astartes to Legends" thing still being a thing in people's minds - they just adjusted the stats - what would be served by moving them to Legends? What would they even move? The squad types?

 

They certainly don't have to move the models due to scale.

 

We'll see what rules differences there really are in like a month and a half or so.

[Lucerne]

I'm going to seriously consider using CSM rules for my AL for perhaps the first time since I joined the hobby since power armour and terminators in that faction may not need to desperately rely on unfluffy daemonic stuff anymore for my favored Legion to be both viable and reasonably fluffy- and at the least, my options have ballooned for a small, relatively elite force. Which I'm quite happy about, thank you.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Dusktiger
removed quoted content that was hidden

[Marshal Reinhard]

So they tricked us into buying models that have worse rules by waiting to make them all the same for three years?

 

I got said models for their appearance and not the efficacy of their rules as I've stated elsewhere. If GW wants me to reinvest in old marines, they need to upgrade those with the same aesthetic upgrade and better proportions as Primaris.