2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[Captain Idaho]

Incidentally, I asked GW for a Throne of Skull tournament they hosted whether they would allow me to use HH Recon Marines to represent Eliminators, since they both have power armour and sniper rifles and answer was a "no" on the grounds of size.

 

Oddly enough, I have email confirmation that any model of Tigurius could be represent the current rules for him, with any issues of base being dealt with by bringing a larger base for him to sit on etc.

 

So it seem WYSIWYG doesn't like the scale divergence.

[Closet Skeleton]

So let me ask you guys this...are we at the point with the nearly merging of the statline, that I could take a bunch of intercessors, give them heavy bolters/grav cannons/plasma cannons, etc and call them devastators? Or would that not fly at competition level events.

 

I ask because I cannot merge the scales of my armies. It looks weird to me, aesthetically.   Either all Jrs or all Primaris, but not mixed.

 

I've already seen guys use converted primaris marines as old marines at events.

 

No one has ever been kicked out of a serious event for putting too much effort into their models, no matter what they were doing with them.

 

 

Incidentally, I asked GW for a Throne of Skull tournament they hosted whether they would allow me to use HH Recon Marines to represent Eliminators, since they both have power armour and sniper rifles and answer was a "no" on the grounds of size.

Or you just sounded like you were looking for excuses to proxy. If you'd sent them pics of HH recon marines on rock bases to increase the height and some actual conversion work they might have been more willing to consider it.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Mandragola]

 

No one has ever been kicked out of a serious event for putting too much effort into their models, no matter what they were doing with them.

 

This is the key point I think. There's a difference between a proxy and a conversion. If you've made an effort to make tactical marines out of intercessors because you want them to look good, and they do, then people will be happy.

 

There's no advantage in doing this. It doesn't help you to have marines that are a few mm taller. This is where you might want to be careful about the appearance of modelling for advantage, for example if you were to start converting drop pods to be larger so they'd make sense holding bigger marines. That would create models that blocked LoS more effectively.

 

I wonder how the guys at Warhamer World will treat this. I think I remember using my scouts there but I can't be sure. Certainly no opponent has ever had an issue with it.

 

I haven't seen what an intercessor with a tactical marine's bolt gun would look like. Possibly not great. You'd definitely want to use the Intercessor's arms. My plan would be to use the reiver carbine with the extra grip at the front removed and maybe a gun sight added. I don't know if that would work though.

[Vermintide]

This is all really splitting hairs honestly- For a tournament sure you have to be really anal about it but I think in any sensible player's mind, they're gonna know a bolter is a bolt rifle when you say "Hey, I'm playing these tacs as Intercessors." I'm fairly sure it's become common by now- The number of Smash Captains I've seen who are made out of kitbashing various Primaris pieces has been impressive, and I don't think anyone's ever been confused why the jump pack captain has Primaris style knee pads.

 

I've been doing it the other way round, in occasional games of 3rd ed where I use a mix of Intercessors and Hellblasters to represent tactical squads with a plasma guns as their special weapon. Amazingly enough the game still works ;) The stats will most likely be bumped up to "official" proxy by the time the datasheets are sent to Legends.

[Captain Idaho]

It's funny how people always assume the most negative reasons for anything, which just colours the world with inaccuracies and misunderstanding.

 

Sure, it's possible I was just trying to get an advantage out of a proxy in a tournament. It's also possible I was engaged in a decent conversation in an email chain with staff about my hobby and how I can fit as many Horus Heresy models as possible into my army for their event to fit my theme (which is already solidly 30K).

 

;)

[Blindhamster]

i dont think they were saying you were modelling for advantage, i think they were saying that GW staff may have viewed it as such if it was a straight proxy. If anything, you're assuming the worst of your fellow Frater.

 

IMO. if your recon marines are on 40mm bases, they're fair game, eliminators come both stood up and kneeling so the height thing really can't come into it. I'd personally not expect you to convert them either as they have unusual style bolters already  and have cloaks so are equipped appropriately too. But the base size should be 40mm, that's all. If you were going to make them las fusil eliminators, it would be nice for them to have clearly las-type weapons obviously

Edited August 24, 2020 by Blindhamster

[9x19 Parabellum]

...

 

IMO. if your recon marines are on 40mm bases, they're fair game, eliminators come both stood up and kneeling so the height thing really can't come into it. I'd personally not expect you to convert them either as they have unusual style bolters already  and have cloaks so are equipped appropriately too. But the base size should be 40mm, that's all. If you were going to make them las fusil eliminators, it would be nice for them to have clearly las-type weapons obviously

 

On the flip side of that, I did a unit of intercessors with the bolt sniper rifle from the eliminators kit and I'm "counts-as"ing them as intercessors with stalker bolt rifle.  They are on 32mm bases so I can't imagine there should be a problem.  It's just chambered in a slightly different caliber than the executioner round :-)  I will get pics of these soon.

Edited August 24, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can see a problem if a player wants to use OG Marines with bolters to represent Intercessors - so it’s a question where do you draw the line .

[War Angel]

Where do we draw the line between proxy and conversion. You can’t use a tactical squad as intercessors, but maybe put some spacers between the legs like dog houses true scale, now it’s converted and works as an intercessor.

 

Intercessor to tactical is a little harder, but I guess throwing a lascannon or missile launcher on one of them kinda solves the issue.

[Mandragola]

 

...

 

IMO. if your recon marines are on 40mm bases, they're fair game, eliminators come both stood up and kneeling so the height thing really can't come into it. I'd personally not expect you to convert them either as they have unusual style bolters already  and have cloaks so are equipped appropriately too. But the base size should be 40mm, that's all. If you were going to make them las fusil eliminators, it would be nice for them to have clearly las-type weapons obviously

 

On the flip side of that, I did a unit of intercessors with the bolt sniper rifle from the eliminators kit and I'm "counts-as"ing them as intercessors with stalker bolt rifle.  They are on 32mm bases so I can't imagine there should be a problem.  It's just chambered in a slightly different caliber than the executioner round :-)  I will get pics of these soon.

 

This sounds good. I think it would be better if there was more difference between the appearance of the various kinds of bolt rifle. I think I might do something a bit less significant, like giving the bolt rifles longer barrels myself, but I can see the sense of using bolt snipers.

 

I've used bolt sniper rifles for a couple of different conversions instead, to represent the relic bolt rifles some characters can have. Things like Duty's Burden for a Crimson Fist Lieutenant.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Well I figured that the differences between an intercessor with a bolt sniper rifle and an eliminator with a bolt sniper rifle are as follows:

 

-different base size

-no cloaks on the intercessors

-different type of power armor

-different heads and thus different visor optics and no hoods.

 

I figure those 4 things should be enough to visually cue the opponent into what they are supposed to be. 

 

As far as Tactical Marine vs. Intercessor...again, I think it's all about the gun that determines what the difference is (the above 'conversion' notwithstanding because there are enough other cues as to what it is).  An intercessor (plastic model) with a boltGUN (plastic model) is a Tactical marine (unit entry).  

[Closet Skeleton]

Here's warhammer world's facebook

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

They post photos from the display cabinets at events. Scroll down past the Lord of the Rings stuff and you'll get to the last 40k throne of skulls.

 

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/a.3131765100176282/3145220198830772/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/a.3131765100176282/3145220268830765/?type=3

 

These Stormfiend based grotesques are from a best army entry, so they're chosen by the staff, and were focused on by the photographer. Scroll a bit down from them and you find a Astra Milatarum army that's entirely modeled as looted grots.

 

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/a.3131765100176282/3145219602164165/?type=3

 

More on topic we eventually get to Death Wing terminators built on Aggressor bodies, again chosen by the staff and highlighted by the photographer to be posted on facebook to represent the hobby.

 

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/a.3131765100176282/3145216932164432/?type=3

 

For me at least this is a better illustration of their actual policy than sumerised email corrospondance.

 

In the 'not chosen for best army but still legal at the event and posted to represent the hobby' section we have this primaris bodied techmarine gunner.

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/a.3131765100176282/3145215012164624/?type=3

 

and this jump pack primaris hero who was probably with the other Iron Knights in the best army section.

 

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/photos/a.3131765100176282/3145213855498073/?type=3

 

Scroll down to the last 40k GT and you can find more jump pack primaris heroes and primaris techmarines.

 

Where do we draw the line between proxy and conversion. You can’t use a tactical squad as intercessors, but maybe put some spacers between the legs like dog houses true scale, now it’s converted and works as an intercessor.

Intercessor to tactical is a little harder, but I guess throwing a lascannon or missile launcher on one of them kinda solves the issue.

There's no line between proxy and conversion, something can be both. There's a big difference between 'I can't be bothered to buy the right models' and 'I need to practice for a tournament but don't have this unit built yet' and then an even bigger difference from those to 'I made a custom tyranid monster but I'm using a datasheet and points value out of the codex' but they're all proxying.

[Mandragola]

Those aggressor/terminators look great. I hadn't really considered merging the kits like that but I think it's worked very well. I'm quite tempted to try a version of that conversion myself, though perhaps I'd try to get the back of the Terminator's torso on there somehow.

[TheNewman]

I suspect that the "GW was just going to reset the Marine line, AoS and the backlash happened, GW backed away from resetting the Marine line, GW is now planning to blend the old Marine line into Primaris in such a way that you can keep using the old models" theory is the correct interpretation. I'm not so sure I see a clear path from here to there though. Edited August 31, 2020 by TheNewman

[chapter master 454]

It is a muddy path. I mean at this point we may just have Primaris and Firstborn continue to co-exist within the setting, and maybe over time the line blurs between them over 3 or 4 editions in the lore but rule wise both squads still exist.

[MegaVolt87]

It is a muddy path. I mean at this point we may just have Primaris and Firstborn continue to co-exist within the setting, and maybe over time the line blurs between them over 3 or 4 editions in the lore but rule wise both squads still exist.

 

Primaris as I understand it, have 2/3 organs the primarchs have, primaris otherwise are basically a space marine with a clean bill of geneseed health, all organs functioning 100% + special organs. Dosn't this kinda rob the primarchs of their biological marvel/ mystery status, as just a SM with 3 special organs? Currently it seems that primarchs only have three implants that define what they are. I hope I have missed something in the newer lore that proves my assessment wrong from a biological difference between them all. Otherwise the primarchs are taken down quite a peg in potency. 

 

EDIT- just realised it has even more of a knock on effect to custodes and GK, not just primarchs.... 

Edited September 1, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Snazzy]

I have a nagging suspicion that this change will create a two tier meta of SMs, and Xenos/Ad Mech/Astra.  

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

It is a muddy path. I mean at this point we may just have Primaris and Firstborn continue to co-exist within the setting, and maybe over time the line blurs between them over 3 or 4 editions in the lore but rule wise both squads still exist.

 

Primaris as I understand it, have 2/3 organs the primarchs have, primaris otherwise are basically a space marine with a clean bill of geneseed health, all organs functioning 100% + special organs. Dosn't this kinda rob the primarchs of their biological marvel/ mystery status, as just a SM with 3 special organs? Currently it seems that primarchs only have three implants that define what they are. I hope I have missed something in the newer lore that proves my assessment wrong from a biological difference between them all. Otherwise the primarchs are taken down quite a peg in potency. 

 

EDIT- just realised it has even more of a knock on effect to custodes and GK, not just primarchs.... 

 

 

That's not how it works. Primaris have additional organs, yes, one of which is a fragment of a complete Primarch organ. Primarchs are far more than just Primaris with a handful of other organs, given the times we've seen Apothecaries operating on Primarchs and not being able to recognize most of their internal organs.

[The Unseen]

 

 

It is a muddy path. I mean at this point we may just have Primaris and Firstborn continue to co-exist within the setting, and maybe over time the line blurs between them over 3 or 4 editions in the lore but rule wise both squads still exist.

Primaris as I understand it, have 2/3 organs the primarchs have, primaris otherwise are basically a space marine with a clean bill of geneseed health, all organs functioning 100% + special organs. Dosn't this kinda rob the primarchs of their biological marvel/ mystery status, as just a SM with 3 special organs? Currently it seems that primarchs only have three implants that define what they are. I hope I have missed something in the newer lore that proves my assessment wrong from a biological difference between them all. Otherwise the primarchs are taken down quite a peg in potency.

 

EDIT- just realised it has even more of a knock on effect to custodes and GK, not just primarchs....

In a HH novel, IIRC, an apothecary looks at a wounded Horus and is at a complete loss as to where to even begin, as internally Horus isn't even close to human, or Astartes. The special organ that cawl wasn't able to finish is more likely and reasonably a bit of Astartes organ that the Emperor didn't finish due to time or research constraints, and cawl got half of it up and running, as some of the recent HH books, I think Saturine, theres a female gene tech who helped the Emperor streamline and finalize Astartes, as He has trouble settling for less than perfect but he doesnt have time to totally complete them.

 

The Primarchs don't have extra organs stuck inside of an otherwise human body. They have an entirely unique physiology that big E crafted to be similar to him, so it could be implied that the Primarchs are what humanity could eventually become given time, but that is both in and out of universe speculation.

 

But that's not even including whatever warp fueled extra that big E included, as Fabius can make perfect clones of Primarchs, at leaat of Fulgrim, Ferrus, and Horus that we've seen, but they arent quite the same, they dont have whatever made the Primarchs really something beyond flesh and blood.

Edited September 1, 2020 by The Unseen

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, there seems to be a bit of an indication that Cawl didn't so much invent the Primaris organs as find the almost-finished work that was cut due to time constraints, and spent 10,000 years putting the finishing touches on.

[Aurica]

My thoughts on this subject.   It has ALWAYS been GW's plan to phase out firstborn marines so that playerbase will buy new models.  It is good for their business.    The thing that makes tacticals special is their ability to take a special or heavy weapon - which intercessors have no access to.   Unfortunately, this doesn't make tacticals particularly any good w/o the Master Artisan CT as ONE special or heavy weapon isn't going to amount to much if they miss 1/3 of the time then fail to wound.  Master Artisans makes tacticals with special or heavy weapons much more reliable.

 

In this case, some are suggesting - then don't take special or heavy weapons.  Now if you do that then you might as well go with Intercessors which are arguable better at holding or taking objectives given that they have two wounds.

 

Because of this - meta shifted towards killing primaris with two wounds.    At the tail end of 8th edtion, we have seen Space Marines Tacticals go down to 12 points and then back up to 13 points in 9th edtition

 

This means those excess damage from multi wound weapons are lost on firstborn marines.  The marines still die but excess doesn't get passed to the next model.   The much lower points cost also means you can field significantly more cheap tacticals vs intercessors.    If you put firstborns in MSU, your opponent also can't make use of the horde rule on firstborn marines.

 

This makes firstborns a very effective horde that have very little drawbacks compared to full primaris squad that has two wounds but have to pay extra cost.   By giving firstborns an extra wound and increasing their point cost.  They aim to put an end to this "efficient horde".  You can see this by GW buffing the Heavy Bolters from D1 to D2 and nerfing Master Artisans.

 

Smaller board actually works better for intercessors because of their range and 1 extra A.  You will be moving and pushing better with Primaris Intercessors.  That isn't to say firstborn don't have a role in the new codex but they are much better for holding objectives in your own deployment zone and if you don't need them to push into the enemy objectives.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Aurica

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel certain OG Marines will be phased out and they have a plan.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Firstborn aren't getting phased out while the Horus Heresy series is still earning money, and while they can expand that into including any of the other major pre-Primaris conflicts. At most, they're going to essentially combine them, until there's no more distinction between Firstborn and Primaris, and there's just Space Marines.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I meant phased out in 40k that should be obvious as there are separate forums for HH.

 

And no there will just be Primaris with only whispers regarding their lost brethren.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Lord_Caerolion]

I know, I'm just talking about the people who assume that Firstborn will be squatted entirely, and GW will never sell their models ever again. That's not going to happen while GW is still making that sweet, sweet HH moneys.