2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[Closet Skeleton]

Personally I think there's nothing more to the 2 wound thing than the designers reacting against the 12point marines at the end of 8th and deciding that this wasn't the direction they wanted for fluff reasons.

 

 

I'm just so happy as a long time fan.  No more Force Org chart.  No more universal 6 inch or 12 inch movement, no more armor values, no more independent characters.  And, finally, no more 3/3/4/4/1/1/8.  3rd edition is almost entirely dead.  Long live 9th Edition!

 

Force Org is basically back with multiple detachments costing CP.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I concur with Seth’s assessment .

[Brother Tyler]

I split the off-topic discussion about the scale and silhouette of legacy Adeptus Astartes into its own discussion.

[Skywrath]

Mostly concerning the Grey Knights, but this discussion can be extended to other Space Marines as well. (Mods, this probably can be moved to SM, if you so wish). 

 

Let's assume the leaked stat-sheets applied to us, the GK, and to other non codex-SM factions such as Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc. How would they go about justifying such a response, when the primaris units are better than firstborn in every single possible way. What kind of technological/genetical enhancement would they need to imagine up, to justify that stat increase, when these units are still not primaris units?

 

Then there is us, the GK - we are special because we have the Emperor's Geneseed in us. Seeing how the emperor is comatose, how would we even get a purer geneseed from Emps, if we do get primaris, and again what kind of technological/genetical advancements do the GK need to go to throw to get that stat increase, lore-wise?

 

Discuss.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Skywrath

[apologist]

Everything you have been told is a lie!

 

 

No justification needed, really; just a soft retcon. The literature and artwork has always walked hand in hand with the models; sometimes leading, sometimes following. The statlines of marines has gradually crept up alongside the size of the miniatures and their depiction in the lore.

 

It's only the release of the Primaris that directly compared the two; and that's easily lost in time. The new rulebook mentions Primaris, but it's perhaps worth noting that they're depicted there as the culmination of what a marine has always been, rather than a new, improved version. I suspect that soft blurring is going to be the approach we get, until Primaris are seen in a similar light to another armour mark, rather than anything really contentious.

 

To put it another way, by taking the spotlight off the Primaris and stepping back, all space marines are revealed to be the superhumans the lore has long depicted them as. Primaris might be fractionally better at X, but not in a way that justifies a substantial jump in statline.

Edited August 21, 2020 by apologist

[RandyB]

Everything you have been told is a lie!

 

 

No justification needed, really; just a soft retcon. The literature and artwork has always walked hand in hand with the models; sometimes leading, sometimes following. The statlines of marines has gradually crept up alongside the size of the miniatures and their depiction in the lore.

 

It's only the release of the Primaris that directly compared the two; and that's easily lost in time. The new rulebook mentions Primaris, but it's perhaps worth noting that they're depicted there as the culmination of what a marine has always been, rather than a new, improved version. I suspect that soft blurring is going to be the approach we get, until Primaris are seen in a similar light to another armour mark, rather than anything really contentious.

 

To put it another way, by taking the spotlight off the Primaris and stepping back, all space marines are revealed to be the superhumans the lore has long depicted them as. Primaris might be fractionally better at X, but not in a way that justifies a substantial jump in statline.

Yep.

 

If, as rumored, Primaris were intended for a reboot of 40K that was abandoned in the wake of the AoS reboot and response, the best thing to do now is exactly that - minimize the rules distinction between Primaris and Firstborn units without any new lore to highlight the change.

[Silver-Fox]

Lorewise we should be close to custodes with a bit less power but psychic powers. So it would be totaly fine for me to go the golden boy route and be the psychik super elite army.

 

Then the thousand sons can be the more "horde" psychic army in the game.

 

As an excuse there is still the sealed scroll from malcador, in wich could be kind of the same "magic/psychic" ritual to create the custodes. (they have no implants and geneseed)

[Sothalor]

It's more an issue with granularity within the rules system that prevents certain expressions of nuance. Firstborn marines have more in similarity with Primaris as genetically engineered, bio-enhanced super-soldiers (W2) than they do baseline humans (W1).

 

Primaris may be tougher than Firstborn, but the gap is smaller. Think of it this way: if the 40k system were significantly more granular, you'd see finer distinctions.

 

If we had, say, a double digit system for wounds where a representative human combatant was like 9 or 10 base, Fistborn and Primaris might be something like 17 and 21, respectively.

 

Is there an objective difference? Sure, but it's a lesser degree. This change is GW trying to make all Space Marines on the tabletop "feel" like the posthuman warriors they're already presented as, not rewriting lore.

 

 

TLDR: crunch change, not fluff change

[Brother Tyler]

Note that there was a discussion in the Grey Knights forum about this change. That discussion was about Space Marines in general, not just the Grey Knights, so it was moved here. That topic was then merged with the existing topic about the change (so the link from the Grey Knights forum doesn't work now).

[jaxom]

Regardless of where the process starts, Space Marines have to have a core scheme to which additions are made. The visual identity and additions to it are well-established by now. The lore is established with the usual vagaries of contradicting authors, retcons, novel ideas, etc. The change to wounds is part of this as well. Weapon schema received a change when damage was introduced to the game. This is just catch up.

[Triszin]

heres my thoughts:

 

its a 3 part-er

 

1.  IMperium is now fully segmented ito distinct factions.

a. Marines 2+w PA

b. sisters 1+W pa

c. guard 1 w normals

- each factions playstyle and army will become more distinct and different

 

2. This is singalling primaris wave updates will take a back seat after this next wave for 9th edition.

- meaning the focus will be on everything else, AWESOME!

 

3. this is also to move older stock thats been sitting. prepping for the late 9th wave release of upscaled tacticals and other units (to primaris scale)

[War Angel]

You mean space Marines will take a back seat

[Vermintide]

I fully subscribe to the theory that this is part of a gradual merge that GW has intended all along.

 

All Marines getting 2W means that Tacticals, Devastators, and other old units that don't see a direct Primaris replacement, will still retain compatibility in the future- It addresses the concern of people who didn't want to buy a whole new army to replace the venerable 2nd ed marines they've had for 30 years. They will still more than likely be bumped out of the codex and into Legends at some point in the future- But if the basic statlines have been bumped up to be directly comparable, it will be much less egregious if people want to use their old Tactical Marines as "proxy" Intercessors, because by then, Intercessors simply will be the new version of Tacticals, and so on.

 

The whole reason this is happening is because they wanted to refresh the Marine line and its rules, but couldn't do so with everything tied to bizarre conventions which had to be upheld just because that's what the model kit came with in 1993.The end result will be a refreshed, upscaled Space Marine line, which more or less resembles the original one, with the exception of rules tweaks. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[SvenIronhand]

I think Primaris should go up a point and get a 6+ FNP in exchange. This would represent their superhuman durability and regenerative properties of the Belisarian Furnace. It would also allow Primaris to keep their durability edge while not invalidating outright the Firstborn.

 

Iron Hands would go up to a 5+++.

Edited August 22, 2020 by SvenIronhand

[War Angel]

 

With the drip feed of 9th being what it has been I think that we're only seeing a handful of pieces of a much bigger jigsaw puzzle that will be 9th edition. While I can't see into the future I think this will be the first of many revelations that will make more sense once the big picture is in focus.

 

This is definitely the case; GW always takes this sort of "sugar to make the medicine go down" approach to how the release information about their games.  The biggest example of that I can remember is when as they were teasing 8th edition they were talking up how tactical squads could now have multiple targets, which was such a big deal when they teased it. 

 

And then the next week they revealed Primaris, totally eclipsing tactical squads.  lol.

So what bad thing is coming?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think nothing bad, the situations aren't really comparable.

 

There are very good reasons to do this, both for internal balance and external. So I think it's probably as simple as that.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So let me ask you guys this...are we at the point with the nearly merging of the statline, that I could take a bunch of intercessors, give them heavy bolters/grav cannons/plasma cannons, etc and call them devastators? Or would that not fly at competition level events.

 

I ask because I cannot merge the scales of my armies. It looks weird to me, aesthetically.   Either all Jrs or all Primaris, but not mixed.

[Blindhamster]

So long as units are clearly what they're meant to be (appropriate weapons etc) I don't see why it would be a problem honestly

[jaxom]

The base sizes are the same so it’s not a stretch. I think the thing would be consistency and making sure the weapons are WYSIWYG.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just keep it wysiwyg.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Mandragola]

I'll certainly be making any Firstborn units I end up using out of Primaris. I'm not ready to start chopping stuff up just yet, I want to see the codex first, but I agree it doesn't look good to have the two model ranges together.

 

This is my scout squad, which I made out of Reivers. Don't know if they'll see much use in 9th but other comparable stuff should be easier than this I think.

 

 

I do think that we'll need to do pretty significant conversions for this to be ok. It's no good to just call an intercessor with a bolt rifle a tactical marine with a bolt gun. But a combination of weapon swaps and maybe a slightly different paint scheme ought to do the trick.

[Ishagu]

I don't think anyone should be worried about the implications.

 

I didn't collect Primaris for the rules, and no one should. Rules change often, power rises and falls, etc. Invest in models you like for armies you want to collect.

 

That being said, I do think the Primaris should have an inbuilt 6+++ in general, as should the Custodes.

 

As for what I think will happen:

 

The next wave of Primaris will be the last for a while, and I imagine future releases will be limited to a special characters and/or an occasional unit.

Gradually over the course of several years some of the classic units might be consolidated, removed from production or added to Legends.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Ishagu

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I suspect that after this wave we will get more niche releases (characters on bikes, a flyer, special units for the codex compliant first foundings possibly via upgrade sprues) not all at once but spread out. I do think we'll see another marine wave with tacitcals, dev's, vanguard, and Termies upscaled to match the chaos size but it will probably be a few of years out.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So long as units are clearly what they're meant to be (appropriate weapons etc) I don't see why it would be a problem honestly

 

Just keep it wyiwyg.

 

By this you guys mean the "gun" essentially determines what they are right?

 

Ie, an "Intercessor" model holding a boltgun (not a bolt rifle) is a tactical marine.

a "Hellblaster" model armed with a lascannon is a devastator marine.

 

That's what you're driving at, right?

Edited August 23, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[jaxom]

 

So long as units are clearly what they're meant to be (appropriate weapons etc) I don't see why it would be a problem honestly

 

Just keep it wyiwyg.

 

By this you guys mean the "gun" essentially determines what they are right?

 

Ie, an "Intercessor" model holding a boltgun (not a bolt rifle) is a tactical marine.

a "Hellblaster" model armed with a lascannon is a devastator marine.

 

That's what you're driving at, right?

 

 

That's my thinking. The base sizes are the same, the overall look is close enough, it's the weapons that are truly unique.