2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Ironically, with Firstborn feeling less...Impatent, and having the extra wounds to justify it, I'm going to be a lot more willing to buy Primaris now. I happen to like the Bladeguard kits, but if Firstborn had been done dirty I wouldn't have bought any, just out of distaste for the decision. But not only will I likely be buying those now, I might start picking up other kits to bash out Firstborn marines in truescale, which means buying both Intercessor and Vet kits to mix and match parts. 

 

Though some of the arguing here has gotten a bit too personal, and I've regrettably contributed to that, I honestly do see this as the change most likely to heal the rift we've had in the community. 

[Blindhamster]

I think another difference is there really arent many primaris players who *are* worried. So there isnt too much vocal complaints about it. The main thing I've seen in relation to primaris has tended to be non primaris fans making memes about primaris fans being upset - projecting even.

 

Seriously, as it stands firstborn got a new lease of life, primaris didnt get worse. They still have better models (at least anyone that bought into them, otherwise why did they buy into them), their rules are still good just not an auto include compared to firstborn anymore which is also a good thing.

 

The change is good for the faction as a whole and I doubt it is a last hurrah, just a rebalance of the codex which was needed. Will we see new firstborn? Maybe! Maybe not! Time will tell.

[Doghouse]

Yeah that is how I see it as well. Primaris are here to stay and if I had my way I'd love to see the original guys stay atleast as an option as Veterans in the long, long term. One thing I would genuinely love to see is vehicles being used by all Astartes, so Primaris can use Landraiders and the like with original marines using Repulsors and the like.

 

I have never seen Primaris as replacement but more like the newbies and I love the idea of the original Astartes acting as Mentors. I also enjoy hte concepts of those that welcome their new brothers with open arms and those that do so begrudgingly. If used properly I don't see why there has to be any notion of them being phased out and should be treated as the old guard. I'm not really on board with the idea of it having to be one or the other but not both.

[Mandragola]

The clearly doesn't mark the end of Primaris. I've just spent some time looking at firstborn units I might add to my army, including Sternguard and vanguard vets. To be honest I'm not sure that they'll beat Primaris stuff to make it in.

 

The thing I really like about intercessors is that you get a troop unit that can do everything. It can fight most other people's troops and take objectives from them. Tacticals might end up having a place as backfield objective holders but I'm not sure about even that. Because the other unit we know we're about to get are heavy intercessors. 

 

The really big advantage firstborn clearly do have is in their transports. Land raiders and repulsors are arguably about equivalent, but rhinos and drop pods are unique now in being able to send 20 wounds worth of models somewhere, at pretty low cost. 

 

I can't yet tell if they're really all that much better than Impulsors. Impulsors are faster and shootier. They're fantastic for screening because they're so difficult to charge. Drop pods are only good if the enemy hasn't already taken an objective but Impulsors can send troops as close as you want - unless the enemy shoots the thing dead on turn one.

 

Multimelta veterans would look truly excellent, if it wasn't for Eradicators. As it is, Eradicators are cheaper, can move and shoot with no penalty, and are far more durable. In exchange, devastators get to deep strike. But then they're at -1 to hit and the pod itself comes with a pretty hefty price tag. Devastators with heavy bolters, or other longer-ranged guns, might do good work though - certainly better than hellblasters can.

 

There's no Primaris unit that replicates the function of vanguard vets. Outriders kind of do, but for now they have no answer to hard targets. Vanguard guys, particularly with the new storm shield rules giving them a 2+ save, could potentially be stars of the new edition.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

Personally I hope that the other codex are raised up to level marines are at. Right now marines and sisters are the only armies with doctrine style buffs and I really think every army should have them.

not necessarily, different armies should have different army rules to appropriately represent how they work on the battlefield (like guard having orders or dark eldar having power through pain or ynnari having stuff to do with death)

I should have clarified what I meant more the sisters buffs work dramatically different than marines so I do want each army to get a unique one. I just think that that adding more to other armies is better than taking things away.

[Dracos]

I’m not going to pull quotes but I am amused by the haters who as little as a week or two ago were complaining something needed to be done because Space Marines were too powerful and it’s bad for the game, are now praising the whole Astarte range as finally getting a stat line they feel is a long time coming.

 

 

@ Captain Idaho: the above statement in no way was pointed at you. To the contrary, thanks for taking me off my soapbox a bit back. I do want to say my personal concern has nothing to do with Primaris viability or competitiveness. But I’m not a Lore Monkey And the rules define the difference from one faction to the other for me. Otherwise we all just paint our Marines purple and play <counts as> new hotness and while I don’t revile meta chasers as some elitist here do, I’m just not built that way.

 

I still believe GW doesn’t plan to Legends the Firstborn as a whole. Maybe the occasional model but that’s going to happen in any faction. I would like to see a distinction between Firstborn and Primaris on the tabletop. I like stormbolters over stubbers but if being an all Primaris army means stubbers then so be it. They are different I want to see that same difference between the Intercessors and the Tacticals, the Incursors and the Scouts etc.

 

I want those distinctions to be fair and balanced pointwise but I want to see a difference. Matter of fact give me a Codex for an all Primaris army - which is supported in the lord - and I’ll be a happy camper.

 

Then I’ll start crusading for a Black Templar Supplement. ;)

Edited August 17, 2020 by Dracos

[Snazzy]

As a long time player, i'm just glad to see one of the last vestiges of the Dull Ages going away.  3rd edition stripped Space Marines of their extra rules that made them fearsome in RT and 2nd ed, and that stat line was somehow sacred for almost 30 years.  GW has been, through fits and spasms, been willing to push the envelope on the complexity of the game.  I don't believe that this change is meant to just drive down model count and speed up games.  8th, and now 9th edition has so much minutia.  The trend has been towards more things to track, mark, remember and decide.  The net effect is that Space Marines are going to seem more like the genetically engineered superhumans they were supposed to me.

 

I'm just so happy as a long time fan.  No more Force Org chart.  No more universal 6 inch or 12 inch movement, no more armor values, no more independent characters.  And, finally, no more 3/3/4/4/1/1/8.  3rd edition is almost entirely dead.  Long live 9th Edition!

[Boldthreat]

Man I can go either way on this one. On one hand, I absolutely believe Primaris is the future of the Space Marine line. But this development, which I like, makes me wonder why go down this road narratively in the first place at all?

 

On the other... the possibility to kitbash and make primaris versions (model wise) of firstborn units to be a bit more viable. At least 2 Hellblaster squads are going to merge with their Intercessor brethren’s and make me some Tactical Squads. And Assault Intercessors are getting jump packs!

 

It’s a win/win for everyone I think. Now I just gotta think how I’m going to turn Aggressors into terminators... I need some Tartoros terminators... I got ideas...

[Dracos]

I would be leery of kitbashing Primaris models and calling them some Firstborn version if you ever plan on going to a tournament. It’s the kind of thing that causes confusion especially if you are also using Primaris models as Primaris. You might think it should be simple but in an environment wear painting your model a particular color scheme can be an issue RAW is more important than RAI

[Bryan Blaire]

Draco, you've already pointed out yourself how Primaris are still different from standard Astartes. They aren't a different faction and shouldn't play 100% differently - maybe like 10% differently - which they still do.

 

Now I do agree that based on the fluff, the developers have some room to do some other things with the Primaris Marines - they could make them tougher and stronger, if the upgrades really do make them a "game point more" in those respects (really only determinable by an internal GW developer & author discussion). They could also make a rule for the Belisarian Furnace, as blindhamster pointed out, maybe some kind of Feel No Pain roll. But if you go down the road of expanding everything too much stat-wise or you make a lot of extra dice rolls for everything, you will begin to get complaints as well, some like that it's verging too much into an RPG-lite/skirmish/adventure game and not a war game, etc. But again, Primaris aren't that much better than Marines even in the lore, so ultimately they should still fall back to being Marines and not a completely different faction - because they aren't.

 

-------------

 

As far as people and their models - do what you think looks good with your models. If people want to convert some extensions onto old boltguns to make bolt rifles for their shorter Marine models, awesome! If people want to take Terminators and convert up some beefy melta rifles on them for Eradicators, that's a cool project too! If people want to cut down or use old bits to create larger scale/less "heroic" proportional standard template Marines of various squad types, awesome! All of these things are cool Marine projects.

 

If TOs really have an issue with it and you think those modeling projects are cooler than playing in tournies, you are probably on the right track - make the decisions you need to.

 

On the other... the possibility to kitbash and make primaris versions (model wise) of firstborn units to be a bit more viable. At least 2 Hellblaster squads are going to merge with their Intercessor brethren’s and make me some Tactical Squads. And Assault Intercessors are getting jump packs!

I would personally use actually standard template gear - bolters, bolt pistols, plasma guns, plasma cannons, etc., personally, to better reflect the gear being used or convert up your own that you can style consistently - but you could go "this guy with the Assault Incinerator is my plasma gun, and this guy with the heavy plasma incinerator is my plasma cannon" - the Assault Intercessor thing, you might be best served by using non-heavy bolt pistols of some variety though.

 

Now I just gotta think how I’m going to turn Aggressors into terminators... I need some Tartoros terminators... I got ideas...

There's some neat conversions merging the two together floating around the board - would be interested to see what you end up doing with the Tartaros - don't think I've seen that yet.

[Dracos]

The flood of Intercessors as troops at the end of 8th would indicate there is an advantage to a 2W troop choice. My thought currently is if that extra wound is worth 3 point to a vanilla marine ... What is it worth to a 18 pt chaos marine troop choice with a 5++/+++ save? If that makes them 33% more survivable then should t they cost 33% more? 3 points would seem to light for a troop choice with an inherent invulnerable type of save but 6 points? Not seeing that either. They definitely should be above 20 imo though.

St.Lazarus’s look much better than mine.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Dracos

[jimbo1701]

Late to the party chaps but will share some of my thoughts.

 

I’m primarily a firstborn player, with many different armies I’ve collected over the years. I embraced the new primaris model range and started a new, primaris only army, but mainly continued playing firstborn. I loved the new models but wasn’t 100% sold on the direction the chose with advancing the storyline. The traditional chapter company structure was all over the place. I was also concerned that with all the points adjustments firstborn were creeping towards being more horde and less elite. Then of course there was the ever looming threat of my armies being reduced to legends if and when that comes to pass.

 

The 2 wound move makes a lot of sense. More for keeping chaos marines relevant than firstborn imo. It also drives up the base cost of marine armies and gives them a more elite feel than was the case when people were filling up troops slots with scouts (now elites, another good move) then spamming executioners, thunderfires, centurions etc.

 

I’m looking forward to seeing a lot more varied armies out there between this change and other weapon / stat changes. Primaris are still very relevant, with their own unique strats and wargear. There is also a lot we still don’t know. Primaris and firstborn may be able to use vehicles interchangeably now. Primaris may get their own inherent rule (unlikely) associated with their keyword, such as 6+ fnp.

 

I think it’s an exciting time to be a marine player regardless of which side you favour.

[Mandragola]

I would be leery of kitbashing Primaris models and calling them some Firstborn version if you ever plan on going to a tournament. It’s the kind of thing that causes confusion especially if you are also using Primaris models as Primaris. You might think it should be simple but in an environment wear painting your model a particular color scheme can be an issue RAW is more important than RAI

Shouldn't be an issue at all. Primaris and Firstborn have the same base sizes. Being a few mm taller is a marginal disadvantage if anything, but in general it will make no difference.

 

I've got a squad of scouts made out of Reivers that I've used in tournaments including the London GT and stuff at Warhammer World. I stuck some more of them on bikes to create a scout biker squad. Never had a single issue.

 

To be fair, those are pretty major conversions, with a lot of armour plates cut away and replaced with GS to look like cloth. You'd need to do a fair bit of work on any other conversions too. I'd be wary of just using four intercessors with bolt rifles and a hellblaster to represent a tactical squad. Bolters shouldn't look the same as bolt rifles. I think I'd do some more kitbashing, probably based on the Reiver bolt carbine, to create bolters - probably with the foregrip removed. One of those with the ammo box from an auto bolt rifle and a gun sight would make a good special issue bolt gun. I'd also want to add details to show that the Sternguard were veterans, and maybe that the tacticals were newly-inducted or something.

 

The fluff that new marines get their first posting in devastator squads could partially help to justify them having a slightly worse profile than most of my troops. Converting Primaris to hold heavy weapons could be tricky though, as the arms look a bit too small. You'd probably need to do some work involving Intercessor arms or something.

 

On the other hand it's not likely anyone will be confused if you gave some assault intercessors jump packs, storm shields and thunder hammers to use as vanguard vets. What else could they be?

 

I might grab a couple of boxes of the new bladeguard when they come out. I could use the bodies with Reiver arms to make Sternguard and the shields with assault intercessors (or possibly suppressors) for vanguard vets. It would be quite a pricey kitbash to create a couple of units I'm not sure I need, but might be fun.

 

Edit: Terminators are a tricky one and I don't know how I'd do them. Basing them on Gravis is an option, but they have a completely different profile to Gravis guys. Not sure at all.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Mandragola

[WrathOfTheLion]

Chaos has a different context however.

 

Because most of the legion traits are very bad and the lack of doctrine-like ability, their points are valued as lower than SM. Essentially they're baking lack of faction rules into unit costs.

 

If they suitably redid the CSM codex, then I do think reevaluating the point cost of 2W CSM would be reasonable.

 

I don't understand the want for Primaris to be a separate army. Unless you play an ultima founding chapter, that would be entirely inaccurate in lore. The fact is, in universe, they are the same army. Having separate vehicles is nonsense. The imperium is on the verge of collapse, yet these SM forces are picky on what their ride is? Having all MK X for Primaris with no modified MK VII, etc. makes no sense. What happens if they make a new primaris and they're short on MK X? Straight to the dreadnought brother...

 

All of this is a strong barrier to the immersiveness of the setting.

Edited August 17, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[chapter master 454]

I feel 8th was a prototype era really. The bridge between old and new, the rule set was incredibly stripped back to make more suitable foundations and codex writers weren't sure of what they could and couldn't do and where pushing the power may be a bit much. Some armies they just didn't give much care for while others certainly got more love in their writing, however not sure if that was lack of data or just negligence is debatable.

 

Now moving into 9th, we are seeing a lot of positive changes. Marines and Necrons getting some serious love and improvements to make them feel good, both an Imperium faction and a Xenos faction. It appears that each army will be given an update yet again to be brought up to 9th edition and if current reveals are truly representative of their direction I think each faction will become a lot better off (aka, triptide won't be the only thing tau can field and actually win with).

[Sete]

Don't be under the illusion that OG Marines will have releases besides the odd special exclusive miniature release.

They are done.

Will they move to legends? Might aswell. Characters will keep getting redone primaris size.

The 2 wounds was done for Chaos to remain relevant. To think this was a boon to OGMarines is naïve.

You are better off converting Primaris and run them as OG, than buying from a line that is not supported, model wise, anymore.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Sete

[Robbienw]

GW are currently hitting us over the head with a massive metaphorical stick labelled 'classic marines are staying, come on guys' in the form of these rules upgrades, and still we have people sticking to the June 2017 hot take opinion of doom for classic marines :lol: 

 

Classics are mostly modern kits, aside from a few exceptions, they are good for years without needing an update.  I'd bet money now at this point that, when the majority of primaris units are released and they have run out of steam in several years time, there will be a return to classic designs.  

[Blindhamster]

i think rather than quite what you say, we'll simply see the two lines become one eventually, with identically scaled models in both styles of armour (although i doubt we'll see exactly the current designs again), but certainly more familiar with classic designs (again, like the codex cover! where there is a guy wearing what looks like a mk7/mkX hybrid.

 

Then they'll drop the primaris keyword and it'll all be back to just being marines again, just with overall better (in my opinion!) models.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Give me ascended primaris veteran kits, GW. Come on, I know you want to.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Reinhard

[Mandragola]

I'd be amazed if we ever saw another mini marine released for Imperial marines. We've seen 0 oldmarine releases in the past 3 years. GW have been very clear that the Primaris programme is fundamentally about redoing the marine line, with better techniques and at the correct scale. Given that models have driven the whole project, it would be bizarre for them to go back to the old models.

 

This 2 wound change is because the models do exist, both in our existing collections and on sale, so it makes sense for them to have good rules. Chaos and GK are really screwed otherwise, and anyway it's the stats marines always should have had.

[Robbienw]

It wouldn't be bizarre.  They can redo old designs in different scales and with different techniques, they redo existing units all the time.  New updated kits for classic units wouldn't have to conform to the exact same mechanical design layout and size as current ones.

 

It would actually be more bizarre if they never revisited iconic popular designs that are a valuable part of their IP in future, that have previously made them vast amounts of money.  Especially given they do this all the time.

 

And there have been classic marine releases (in a slightly different scale funnily enough :lol:), in the last 3 years. Lets not get into that nonsense again.

[Blindhamster]

its better to say there hasn't been mainline non limited non blind bag GW releases

There have been foregeworld horus heresy marine releases, there has been the space marine heroes, there have been a number of limited release character models. When people talk about the "no classic marine releases" I think they just mean no squads or permenantly available characters for 40k by GW (remember that Forgeworld stuff remains niche and also as its aimed at the horus heresy, of course it'll be classic marines, although technically the stuff released has been specific HH units in the last few years too tbf iirc)

I genuinely think there will come a point where classic marines and primaris just become the same thing, the lines between the two designs will blur and the units will get merged (imagine in the future that a tactical squad is an intercessor squad with access to a special and heavy weapon, it would be called a tactical squad but the marines would have bolt rifles rather than standard bolt guns, and the armour and scale would be baseline primaris but with a lot more classic marine elements mixed in such as helmet designs, shoulder designs (this has already happened with shoulders even on the basic intercessor kit to be fair) etc.

 

time will tell of course, i doubt we'll see anything like the above, or classic marine updates this edition, but maybe 10th!?

 

actually yeah, there HAS been new chaos marines - which are an entirely different faction. And I'd hope Grey Knights maybe get an update in the next three years!

Edited August 17, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Robbienw]

 

its better to say there hasn't been mainline non limited non blind bag GW releases

 

 

Indeed it is.  Saying the blanket statement "We've seen 0 oldmarine releases in the past 3 years" is an actual lie.  Saying 'yeah but i obviously meant mainline troops boxes and vehicles' is great, but if thats what you mean you should state it :lol:

 

All you have to do is add the qualifier of something like 'mainline' or 'standard squad'.  Otherwise a release can mean any model in any kind of release format...

[Captain Idaho]

I'm far less convinced First Born will be retired myself, at least for the whole of 9th. These new rules are a big support for them, as well as most of these weapons being beneficial for older Marines and their weapons.

 

I don't know what to think really. GW has left Eldar and Ork kits from ages past still in the range so maybe that's First Born then? Or maybe this is the last hurrah? Or maybe this really is the big test to see if there is appetite for the First Born still and thus new releases might come?

 

It could any direction right now and I wouldn't be that surprised.

[Blindhamster]

I think retired is the wrong word, IMO we'll see the the lines merged, you could say both primaris and firstborn would be "retired" by bringing the two back together, they might not I guess, but the marine codex has a silly number of units now, so my hope would be to see similar units merged eventually. Just my hope though.