2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[TheNewman]

...At the tail end of 8th edtion, we have seen Space Marines Tacticals go down to 12 points and then back up to 13 points in 9th edtition...

Tacticals are 15 points in 9th. The 'efficient horde' argument doesn't hold water when you're getting at most two extra units.

[Captain Idaho]

The thing that makes tacticals special is their ability to take a special or heavy weapon - which intercessors have no access to. Unfortunately, this doesn't make tacticals particularly any good w/o the Master Artisan CT as ONE special or heavy weapon isn't going to amount to much if they miss 1/3 of the time then fail to wound. Master Artisans makes tacticals with special or heavy weapons much more reliable.

 

In this case, some are suggesting - then don't take special or heavy weapons. Now if you do that then you might as well go with Intercessors which are arguable better at holding or taking objectives given that they have two wounds.

I'm afraid I completely disagree with this point.

 

Adding specials and heavy weapons, as well as Combi weapons on the Sergeant, makes Tactical Marines extremely useful.

 

Marines are expensive. Most of the time we take Battalions and with plenty of need for board coverage and objective holding, we need to invest in troops as they're cheaper for this sort of "waste" in frontline potential.

 

Needing to invest in troops means spending points on troops who very well may be far away or at extreme

operational ranges. If you want these units to contribute to fighting in any meaningful way, special and heavy weapons help in this way.

 

In addition, you'll be outnumbered most of the time, which includes in weaponry. This is especially true if you spend points on Assault troops and other close ranged infantry. So having those points costs going into Troops doubling up with additional firepower you will find your army will have more efficiency all round.

 

I don't dispute that there is an argument GW won't be producing new First Born Marines, but effectiveness on the table is definitely not a reason to invest purely in Primaris Marines.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Aurica]

 

 

Adding specials and heavy weapons, as well as Combi weapons on the Sergeant, makes Tactical Marines extremely useful.

 

Marines are expensive. Most of the time we take Battalions and with plenty of need for board coverage and objective holding, we need to invest in troops as they're cheaper for this sort of "waste" in frontline potential.

 

 

 

That is only 1 special and / or 1 heavy if you take 10 man squad.   Then you hit maybe 2/3 of the time and then still need to roll to wound.   That 1 weapon isn't going to amount to much unless you have some form of rerolls.    If you don't have Master Artisan you have to rely on staying close to the Captains / LTs to make it worth it.   Even so that is just 1 weapon chipping away at the enemy.   That is also why the new Primaris are all using similar weapons now.   GW is trying to make the new marines with more defined roles that are easier to grasp - more point and click as some would like to call it.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Aurica

[Dracos]

I would take 3 units of 3 Intercessors with 2 Hellblaster (1 Heavy, 1 Rapid-fire) in a heartbeat as a Troop option.

[Ishagu]

With games having smaller armies, and more focused lists, I no longer see the value in a a few scattered special weapons.

 

You want your anti infantry guys shooting at infantry, and dedicated units for dealing with other threats. If you give a bunch of unit a single special weapon, you can't bring them all to bear against the right target when you need to.

 

It offers a bit of redundancy, and has more value with Salamanders thanks to their CT and super high efficiency, but I certainly don't miss the occasional plasma scattered around my army.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Ishagu

[Mandragola]

With games having smaller armies, and more focused lists, I no longer see the value in a a few scattered special weapons.

 

You want your anti infantry guys shooting at infantry, and dedicated units for dealing with other threats. If you give a bunch of unit a single special weapon, you can't bring them all to bear against the right target when you need to.

 

It offers a bit of redundancy, and has more value with Salamanders thanks to their CT and super high efficiency, but I certainly don't miss the occasional plasma scattered around my army.

I feel the same. The game has kind of moved on and now you tend to want whole squads of special weapons. A single plasma gun just doesn't do all that much. I find it better to have the attacks with the Intercessors, so I can fight enemy troops for objectives. It's quite nice to have the Sergeant with an extra attack for whatever he's carrying too.

[Dracos]

I think the smaller boards makes using special weapons in MSU units viable. And truthfully I don’t expect my Intercessors to get any real work done other than ObSec and maybe Action Monkey. Given the stratification of the Primaris the flexibility to shove a few rando shots into a tank or monster would be nice. Less needed now with Eradicators but they’re only 3 models and if the points are there the option would be useful.

 

I never expected to see it. I always thought they went to make a Primaris and Firstborn distinct bitter recent events have proven otherwise so why not give Primaris at least a measure of the flexibility enjoyed by Firstborn ?

[WrathOfTheLion]

Making them more similar is another way to end up reducing datasheets or kits.

 

If, for example, Assault Marines end up split between Assault Intercessors and another unit with jump packs, then those kits/datasheets become straight successors to the assault marine kit. They could then conceivably retire the assault marine kit without moving anything to legends, if that's the direction they want to go. Or, just leave the kit available if it continues to sell. This would be the smartest way to handle a firstborn to primaris transition if they intend to eventually have only a primaris lineup for available kits for 40k.

 

I still think balance is the main reason though. Not just with CSM, etc., but having 12 pt tacticals at the end of 8th just isn't going to work. Something had to give there.

Edited September 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Captain Idaho]

It's not about a single Heavy or Special weapon extra in your army. It's about having several Troops choices holding objectives and board control and still contributing firepower to the army (or the war effort, so to speak).

 

Also, saying adding 2 Lascannons to your list in Tactical squads isn't effective but having a shorter ranged Las talon on your Repulsor is okay, kinda contradicts the point.

 

Sure I know no one made that claim, but if I said your Repulsor Las Talon was worthless in your army because it's just 2 extra Lascannon shots, you'd rightfully dispute that.

 

Just because Tactical Marines are going to be useful in many armies now, it doesn't mean Intercessors will disappear. It likely means Intercessors will hold centre objectives and advance whilst Tactical Marines give supporting fire holding those objectives away from the main thrust of your army.

[Mandragola]

I think I’d agree more on the utility of tacticals if there were more objectives in deployment zones. The chapter approved missions tend to have the majority of them in midfield though. This means that the extra attack intercessors bring is quite often relevant.

 

Added to that, you quite often get objectives along the centre line of the board, 12” from deployment zones. You’re rewarded for advancing troops to grab these. Auto bolt rifles look like a pretty strong option for intercessors in 9th, giving you quite significantly more firepower than a tactical squad’s bolters, especially while moving.

 

I doubt I’ll often use troops to hold my backfield. Obsec is a lot less relevant back there, so it often makes sense to use something from the heavy support slot to sit there. Meanwhile the obsec units can advance to where objectives are contested.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think alot of the frustration from primaris players is caused by the 2nd wound being such a large selling point for primaris initially. I think its further compounded by the fact that from a competitive stand point the troop slot was the area where primaris shined. Hq slots have been dominated by smash captains and jump libbies. Centurions & leviathans have been fixtures in the scene as well. I think with 9th aggressors and inceptors will see a jump but alot of us can't play in tournaments so it's all theory hammer.

[The Unseen]

The biggest benefit for tacticals is being able to fit inside rhinos and razorbacks, for cheap transport that in the case of razors also provide fire support. A rhino plopped onto an objective with 2 tac squads is 10 T7 wounds with a 3+, and then 20 T4 wounds can pop out if it goes down.

Thats a lot of wounds to remove to clear off an objective, and in 9th thats crucial.

 

Even with special/combi, a tac squad with 2 wounds is going to be very difficult to efficiently kill, while also being fairly low on the priority list for your opponent to kill because of their overall low damage compared to our elites.

So they either spend prodigious firepower to chew through a rhino and 2 squads of 5 to remove an objective of yours, or you score primary points, both of which can be turned to your advantage.

 

Intercessors can do something similar with an impulsor, and while with the shield dome the impulsor is significantly more durable, it also costs nearly as much as 2 rhinos, and can only have 12 wounds inside, which means your probably better off just running up the board with autos or taking one of the infiltrating troops instead for similar results, but lower overall durability.

[jaxom]

 

The game has kind of moved on and now you tend to want whole squads of special weapons. A single plasma gun just doesn't do all that much. I find it better to have the attacks with the Intercessors, so I can fight enemy troops for objectives. It's quite nice to have the Sergeant with an extra attack for whatever he's carrying too.

 

It's not about a single Heavy or Special weapon extra in your army. It's about having several Troops choices holding objectives and board control and still contributing firepower to the army (or the war effort, so to speak).

 

Also, saying adding 2 Lascannons to your list in Tactical squads isn't effective but having a shorter ranged Las talon on your Repulsor is okay, kinda contradicts the point.

 

I think this goes to what, at least for me, was the easiest to understand but hardest to really internalize difference with 8th/9th. A single special or heavy weapon won't be likely to one-shot a model. It's just not going to to have that 100+ point swing when the 15 pt weapon kills a tank or Instant Deaths something. Quantity/redundancy became more important; it's now a matter of where it's located. On one side we have something like Devastators - one squad 5 heavy weapons - and on the other hand we have the Tactical Squad - one squad 1 or 2 s/h weapons. A Devastator squad has the perks of being a single unit. It takes up one FOC slot, it's consolidated the weapons for buffing by psychic powers, "choose a unit" abilities, and auras. But it's a single target. Five lascannons among five Tactical Squads are harder to root out, but can only all benefit from a well-positioned aura.

 

I think it comes down to what the other points are bringing to the table. The extra 320 points of the Tactical Squads brings an extra 20 marines (four of whom are Sergeants) to the table. But then if we look at a Repulsor compared to two Tactical Squads it swings the other way. The Repulsor is a single unit, but costs more and we're comparing 16 ablative wounds (in the form of the marines in the two squads) with 8 rapid fire Str 4 weapons to 15 ablative wounds (without the benefit of Damage shenanigans, like D3 on a 2W model) with a degrading profile. But! It's a transport with around 13 anti-infantry ranged attacks. I would assume the question is which supports the rest of your list better?

[Ishagu]

I think alot of the frustration from primaris players is caused by the 2nd wound being such a large selling point for primaris initially. I think its further compounded by the fact that from a competitive stand point the troop slot was the area where primaris shined. Hq slots have been dominated by smash captains and jump libbies. Centurions & leviathans have been fixtures in the scene as well. I think with 9th aggressors and inceptors will see a jump but alot of us can't play in tournaments so it's all theory hammer.

I don't think there's any frustration. For me it's all about the best looking models.

 

Primaris were sub par, rules wise, for YEARS after their release. I still collected them because the kits look fantastic on the tabletop. After the last codex the rules became a match for the models.

[Dracos]

Jaxom @ I like your POV. It brings up another issue. The Heavy slots are glutted with great choices. With 3 being your max. Elite on the other hand is hit and miss with a few excellent choices depending on your style. Placing a cheap plasma rifle or lascannon into 3 backfield tactical squads is a cheap ObSec unit. Never give the opposition a chance to pop an Executioner and give them sweet VP because you didn’t protect your backfield. That leaves Assault Intercessors for midfield to reinforce your Incursor/infiltrators. Thunder Hammers for my Sgts please.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I think alot of the frustration from primaris players is caused by the 2nd wound being such a large selling point for primaris initially. I think its further compounded by the fact that from a competitive stand point the troop slot was the area where primaris shined. Hq slots have been dominated by smash captains and jump libbies. Centurions & leviathans have been fixtures in the scene as well. I think with 9th aggressors and inceptors will see a jump but alot of us can't play in tournaments so it's all theory hammer.

I don't think there's any frustration. For me it's all about the best looking models.

 

Primaris were sub par, rules wise, for YEARS after their release. I still collected them because the kits look fantastic on the tabletop. After the last codex the rules became a match for the models.

As an early adopter of primaris because of the new scale I agree. I just tend to be sensitive to comparative discussion because alot of players don't want Primaris to exist which has made me a bit defensive.

[Mandragola]

Jaxom @ I like your POV. It brings up another issue. The Heavy slots are glutted with great choices. With 3 being your max. Elite on the other hand is hit and miss with a few excellent choices depending on your style. Placing a cheap plasma rifle or lascannon into 3 backfield tactical squads is a cheap ObSec unit. Never give the opposition a chance to pop an Executioner and give them sweet VP because you didn’t protect your backfield. That leaves Assault Intercessors for midfield to reinforce your Incursor/infiltrators. Thunder Hammers for my Sgts please.

While it's true that heavy support choices are a bit limited, I don't think that matters too much to this discussion. There's no shortage of units with really serious firepower in the elite and fast attack slots. One of the effects of having such an enormous codex is that there's always another option.

 

Wiht the rules for bolt rifles as they are, I don't really see a case for a unit with bolt guns and a special weapon. Auto rifles or stalkers will do comparable damage for around the same price, and you also get the extra attack in melee.

 

You could potentially have some tacticals to sit back and shoot while sending intercessors into midfield. But tactical squads do not provide efficient shooting at range. If one person spends 300 points on tactical squads with heavy weapons and the other person buys a couple of tanks or a leviathan instead, the person with the leviathan wins.

 

I think the single heavy weapon really lost out in the move from 7th to 8th. You used to have a chance to one-shot tanks and so it kind of made sense to have lascanons (or equivalent) dotted around the place to make pot shots. Now you need to hit things several times and that requires you to bunch weapons up a lot more - and litanies, stratagems etc. reward you for doing so. If anything, I find myself wanting to take larger units so that I can get the most value out of stratagems that I use on them, rather than MSU units with weapons spread around.

[jaxom]

 

Wiht the rules for bolt rifles as they are, I don't really see a case for a unit with bolt guns and a special weapon. Auto rifles or stalkers will do comparable damage for around the same price, and you also get the extra attack in melee.

You could potentially have some tacticals to sit back and shoot while sending intercessors into midfield. But tactical squads do not provide efficient shooting at range. If one person spends 300 points on tactical squads with heavy weapons and the other person buys a couple of tanks or a leviathan instead, the person with the leviathan wins.

 

I don't disagree, but I think this is another example of where the quantity/redundancy lies. Anti-tank weapons have a lot of swing, technically two lascannons can kill a Rhino while it would take six Stalker Bolt Rifles to do that. Yet, looking at  damage averages, it's more like three lascannons compared to those six Stalkers (I'm assuming all these weapons hit and wound, just to keep things simple). 120 points for six T4 2W 3+ bodies to go with the Stalkers, no ablative wounds and additional shooting, no ablative wounds. 270 points for three T4 2W 3+ bodies to go with the lascannons, 12 T4 2W 3+ ablative bodies and 12 Bolters which can fire at other things. The question, from my perspective: do the ablative bodies fit into what I want to do with my army or not0? Looking at, "I want to sit at the edge of the board," then the Bolters aren't appealing and range may offer more protection than more bodies. 

[TheNewman]

 

I think alot of the frustration from primaris players is caused by the 2nd wound being such a large selling point for primaris initially. I think its further compounded by the fact that from a competitive stand point the troop slot was the area where primaris shined. Hq slots have been dominated by smash captains and jump libbies. Centurions & leviathans have been fixtures in the scene as well. I think with 9th aggressors and inceptors will see a jump but alot of us can't play in tournaments so it's all theory hammer.

I don't think there's any frustration. For me it's all about the best looking models.

 

Primaris were sub par, rules wise, for YEARS after their release. I still collected them because the kits look fantastic on the tabletop. After the last codex the rules became a match for the models.

I don't know about anyone else, but I suddenly have frustrations.

 

1) Firstborn look kind of funny in the first place and it's going to be worse now that they're going to be W2.

 

2) Between Assault Intercessors and Bladeguard Vets I now have all the tools to kit-bash much better looking Tac, Dev, Assault, and Vet squads and an excuse to do it (gonna be W2...) but I already have too many painted first-born to justify the project.

[jaxom]

 

1) Firstborn look kind of funny in the first place and it's going to be worse now that they're going to be W2.

 

2) Between Assault Intercessors and Bladeguard Vets I now have all the tools to kit-bash much better looking Tac, Dev, Assault, and Vet squads and an excuse to do it (gonna be W2...) but I already have too many painted first-born to justify the project.

 

Personally, I view the 2W change as a way for people who do like the Firstborn models to get a good Marine experience (as envisioned by the codex writers) when they are on the table. Those who like Primaris will keep Primaris'ing along. Other marine players have to wrestle with what are they willing to accept or do if they're not keen on Primaris-specific aesthetics or lore (use models which are out-of-scale, true- or tall-scale conversions, convert Primaris to Mk7, etc). 

 

I was reading a book about computer engineering and one of the things that came up was automation. The idea was, it's not a good idea to automate what you're already doing because automation is different than by-hand. Instead, figure out the goal and automate for that. For example, don't automate screws-and-bolts; the goal is a join, welding is a better choice for automation. I think this can be applied to any paradigm shift. 

 

2W Firstborn are now a thing and Primaris are now a thing. It may be frustrating for some, it may be a cause of celebration for some. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. Each of us has to look at our own likes and dislikes within the hobby and ask ourselves: what's the goal? What am I looking to get out of the hobby moving forward and how can I work towards that?

[Dracos]

Give me Assault Inceptors with storm shields and Thunder Hammmersband I’ll forgive Firstborn stepping on my 2W Primaris toes ;)

[jaxom]

Give me Assault Inceptors with storm shields and Thunder Hammmersband I’ll forgive Firstborn stepping on my 2W Primaris toes

 

On my list of things I would do once 9th edition codex comes out if I had more resources: Sanguinary Guard and Vanguard Veteran Blood Angel rules, but all converted from Primaris bodies.

[Guest Triszin]

Give me Assault Inceptors with storm shields and Thunder Hammmersband I’ll forgive Firstborn stepping on my 2W Primaris toes

at most I could see them gain the option to swap out the pistol or chainsword for a storm sheild

[Rik Lightstar]

Give me Assault Inceptors with storm shields and Thunder Hammmersband I’ll forgive Firstborn stepping on my 2W Primaris toes ;)

If you converted up 5 you could run them as Vanguard Veterans....

 

 

Rik

[Waking Dreamer]

Well, I'm glad that Strike Squads which cost just as much as Primaris Intercessors are now more or less, equally survivable. Also by extension, the iconic Terminator armour is similarly as beefy as the new Gravis armour, rule-wise.