2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[Dracos]

 

Give me Assault Inceptors with storm shields and Thunder Hammmersband I’ll forgive Firstborn stepping on my 2W Primaris toes ;)

 

at most I could see them gain the option to swap out the pistol or chainsword for a storm sheild

You might be confusing Inceptors with Intercessors.

 

@ Rik : Primaris or nothing for me Rik. I keep thinking about running a Smash Captain, even built one from a spare Inceptor, but since getting back into the game I’ve made the choice to run an all-Primaris army and except for a Xiphon Interceptor I don’t see myself ever running anything else.

 

Is it too much asking for an Assault Jump Pack Gravis unit? In today’s game 2W and T5 are quickly becoming yesterday’s 1W T4. T5 is okay but innate deep strike and an Invulnerable same with with advance melee weapons are way better. It’ll get to the point where 1W is more efficient than 2 due to the value wasted is overkill

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think old smashy might be going bye bye soon. He will be missed.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Hopefully any further jump primaris units stay grounded, there is a special place down under for those flight stands on inceptors.

 

All in all, it's a necessary balance change. CSM and GK were always going to have to be brought up to the same level.

Edited September 7, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Blindhamster]

Well, I'm glad that Strike Squads which cost just as much as Primaris Intercessors are now more or less, equally survivable. Also by extension, the iconic Terminator armour is similarly as beefy as the new Gravis armour, rule-wise.

they're also a lot better at shooting and have significantly better melee potential and psychic powers, id expect them to cost more than intercessors.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Well, I'm glad that Strike Squads which cost just as much as Primaris Intercessors are now more or less, equally survivable. Also by extension, the iconic Terminator armour is similarly as beefy as the new Gravis armour, rule-wise.

they're also a lot better at shooting and have significantly better melee potential and psychic powers, id expect them to cost more than intercessors.

 

 

They're designed like most Grey Knight units to have the potential to put in work in all phases of the game (psychic, shooting, combat). And just like most Grey Knight units they usually don't ever reach combat - basically only contributing some storm bolter shots (24" range max) and just 1 MW smite (at base 12" range). With currently only T4 W1 Sv3+, in front of any half-decent gun line / shooting unit...is basically saying bye-bye to 100 points (and that is the GKs cheapest infantry) for just 5 models. 

[Waking Dreamer]

And I definitely expect them to go up in points (more than Intercessors), once they get to flex that extra wound. But right now to cost the same as Intercessors and be only half as survivable, for basically the same Troops role for their respective armies...the cost (20 ppm or 24 ppm IF you want the base 2 attacks like Primaris) they are charging right now, for what is essentially the closest thing to an army's "throw-away" or "screening" unit, is bordering ludicrous in comparison to the Primaris standard.

[9x19 Parabellum]

...

IMO. if your recon marines are on 40mm bases, they're fair game, eliminators come both stood up and kneeling so the height thing really can't come into it. I'd personally not expect you to convert them either as they have unusual style bolters already and have cloaks so are equipped appropriately too. But the base size should be 40mm, that's all. If you were going to make them las fusil eliminators, it would be nice for them to have clearly las-type weapons obviously

On the flip side of that, I did a unit of intercessors with the bolt sniper rifle from the eliminators kit and I'm "counts-as"ing them as intercessors with stalker bolt rifle. They are on 32mm bases so I can't imagine there should be a problem. It's just chambered in a slightly different caliber than the executioner round :-) I will get pics of these soon.

Here's the aforementioned/promised Intercessors with converted Stalker bolt rifles:

Edited September 8, 2020 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Blindhamster]

those look great!

[Mandragola]

I got hold of Shrike to maybe turn into a smash captain. A new pair of arms with a big hammer and definitely a new head, and I think he'd look good. As a bonus, he's stood on a bit of barricade rather than a flying stand. A cheaper option would be a suppressor, though then he'd be up on a silly stick.

 

So far I haven't built the guy. When we get the new book I might make a judgement on whether smash captains are even a thing. I'm vaguely considering making a small Raven Guard force, as they'd work quite differently to my Fists and I have about enough grey plastic to just do it.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Well, I'm glad that Strike Squads which cost just as much as Primaris Intercessors are now more or less, equally survivable. Also by extension, the iconic Terminator armour is similarly as beefy as the new Gravis armour, rule-wise.

they're also a lot better at shooting and have significantly better melee potential and psychic powers, id expect them to cost more than intercessors.

 

 

Melee and Psychic, yes, but better shooting? I'd say it's a wash; 1-2 longer range shots at -1 vs. 2/4 medium range shots at no AP.

I think old smashy might be going bye bye soon. He will be missed.

 

What makes you say that?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just a feeling... hopefully not though .

[Dracos]

I concur. The Outrider Chaplain is looking wicked and though I’m hoping for an Inceptor Captain, likely to see a Outeider Captain version at some point first.

[Mandragola]

I'm keen to see if the biker chaplain gets the bonus 2 attacks on the charge. If so, he'll be a monster. A Captain with a thunder hammer would be better still, if one ever appears.

 

If we get a jump captain I don't know if he'd be in Inceptor armour or something else. Shrike and Suppressors show that jump packs can be added to normal mkX or phobos armour, not just to Gravis.

 

Based on one of the BL books (not sure which... Crusade?), the idea with Inceptors is that they can be dropped directly from orbit without needing some kind of drop pod or a thunder hawk. There's kind of a weird gap right now in that it isn't explained how Primaris guys and their non-flying vehicles get down out of orbit. I'm fairly sure they don't just drop repulsors from strike cruisers, especially since they'd have no way to get back up again after they were finished.

 

That book said that Cawl had even given marines new Primaris-specific ships, equipped with stuff like racks for dropping Inceptors. They had sort of a stick that the Inceptors stuck on and it then poked out the side of the ship, dropping them into the high atmosphere. 

[Metzombie]

 

Based on one of the BL books (not sure which... Crusade?), the idea with Inceptors is that they can be dropped directly from orbit without needing some kind of drop pod or a thunder hawk. There's kind of a weird gap right now in that it isn't explained how Primaris guys and their non-flying vehicles get down out of orbit. I'm fairly sure they don't just drop repulsors from strike cruisers, especially since they'd have no way to get back up again after they were finished.

They have the Overlord.

[jaxom]

Based on one of the BL books (not sure which... Crusade?), the idea with Inceptors is that they can be dropped directly from orbit without needing some kind of drop pod or a thunder hawk. There's kind of a weird gap right now in that it isn't explained how Primaris guys and their non-flying vehicles get down out of orbit. I'm fairly sure they don't just drop repulsors from strike cruisers, especially since they'd have no way to get back up again after they were finished.

 

That book said that Cawl had even given marines new Primaris-specific ships, equipped with stuff like racks for dropping Inceptors. They had sort of a stick that the Inceptors stuck on and it then poked out the side of the ship, dropping them into the high atmosphere.

Dark Imperium describes it, including Repulsors dropped from low orbit with squads inside. I can’t remember if the Repulsors are dropped from Overlords or fleet ships.

[Aurica]

It's not about a single Heavy or Special weapon extra in your army. It's about having several Troops choices holding objectives and board control and still contributing firepower to the army (or the war effort, so to speak).

 

Also, saying adding 2 Lascannons to your list in Tactical squads isn't effective but having a shorter ranged Las talon on your Repulsor is okay, kinda contradicts the point.

 

Sure I know no one made that claim, but if I said your Repulsor Las Talon was worthless in your army because it's just 2 extra Lascannon shots, you'd rightfully dispute that.

 

Just because Tactical Marines are going to be useful in many armies now, it doesn't mean Intercessors will disappear. It likely means Intercessors will hold centre objectives and advance whilst Tactical Marines give supporting fire holding those objectives away from the main thrust of your army.

Well, what I just saw in the new SM Codex just confirms my suspicion.  The nerf to MA will make tacticals less reliant on taking any specials or heavies.  

Even if you DONT take specials or heavies and plain tactical with 2 wounds also won't match up to Primaris marines.

 

Transhuman Physiologoy has now been changed so ONLY Primaris can use it.  The increase in cost of all first born marines in a multi damage meta and loss of transhuman was an intended move by GW to phase out firstborns.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Aurica

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So first born are not truly transhuman ... interesting. Edited October 2, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Snazzy]

Scouts moved to Elites, too.  This is the final hour of Firstborn, and mostly in an "also starring" capacity.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Even if you DONT take specials or heavies and plain tactical with 2 wounds also won't match up to Primaris marines.

The nerf to MA will make tacticals less reliant on taking any specials or heavies.  ...

 

 

What is MA?

[jaxom]

I’d guess Master Aura, referring to chapter master full trolls affecting only 1 unit per turn.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Master Artisans. The Successor trait that has been propping up Tactical squads.

[Captain Idaho]

Meh Tacticals have decent weapons and look strong this edition, depending on the build. No one uses Transhuman Physiology on Troops and if they did they'd be wasting their CPs.

 

The loss of Transhuman Physiology for Firstborn is a big problem for their elites units, particularly Terminators. That is a big blow.

 

The biggest problem I've got is there a bunch of Strategums that help Primaris but will there be sufficient for Firstborn?

 

If there's a nice one for Terminators (alongside Fury of the First) I won't have a problem and I rescind my objections cheerfully.

[MegaVolt87]

I'm interested to see how the consolidated relic terminator entry is looking with its mixed options. 

[Ishagu]

Tacticals are massive winners in the new codex.

[UnkyHamHam]

Tacticals are massive winners in the new codex.

Why do you say that? Is it merely the extra wound and 2 points cheaper than Intercessors?