2 wound marines: musings on reasoning

[Ishagu]

 

Tacticals are massive winners in the new codex.

Why do you say that? Is it merely the extra wound and 2 points cheaper than Intercessors?

They're a lot better than they were and can take a few weapons to shore up shortcomings in your list, although I personally don't do that.

 

Probably the best objective holders point for point now, unless Incursors are cheaper?

 

Tacticals also get access to the cheapest transports and drop pods.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm thinking might see a lot more mixed arms and flexibility there, maybe tacticals in rhinos whilst primaris push forward more in impulsors. Will probably experiment with doing some of that.

 

Transhuman physiology being primaris only is only a blow to a few units from firstborn, notably Terminators and Wulfen for Space Wolves. Hopefully we see something more to go with terminators, but Wulfen I think could end up being big losers with their significant reduction in durability.

[Ishagu]

Definitely, from a gameplay perspective.

 

I think I like the Primaris models too much to drop any, however.

[Skywrath]

Well color me angry, so that's one more kick in the ribs for the Grey Knights. Two if you consider that the exclusion of transhuman for us means we won't get primaris. See you in tier 4 boys.

[WrathOfTheLion]

What does this have anything to do with the Grey Knights codex and what they will do in the future for a faction using a different book?

 

As for mixed arms, I like both the Primaris and Firstborn, so I think this is a good change. I'll end up taking some of each I think. Don't think I'll really be dropping any of either. I think with the addition of Bladeguard to Deathwing for instance as well as new speeders/bikes for Ravenwing, we're seeing quite a lot of expansion for those forces that will be very interesting for DA players.

Edited October 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Boldthreat]

 

Based on one of the BL books (not sure which... Crusade?), the idea with Inceptors is that they can be dropped directly from orbit without needing some kind of drop pod or a thunder hawk. There's kind of a weird gap right now in that it isn't explained how Primaris guys and their non-flying vehicles get down out of orbit. I'm fairly sure they don't just drop repulsors from strike cruisers, especially since they'd have no way to get back up again after they were finished.

 

That book said that Cawl had even given marines new Primaris-specific ships, equipped with stuff like racks for dropping Inceptors. They had sort of a stick that the Inceptors stuck on and it then poked out the side of the ship, dropping them into the high atmosphere.

Dark Imperium describes it, including Repulsors dropped from low orbit with squads inside. I can’t remember if the Repulsors are dropped from Overlords or fleet ships.

In Dark Imperium a new kind of ship was introduced. I don’t know if it’s known as the Rudense class officially, but it was the name of the ship mentioned. It is described as knife like and really fast. It’s goal is to brush up against a planets atmosphere and drop assets like Inceptors directly into battle. I would assume that it would be a logical thing to drop Repulsors from the same. This ship does not have drop pod capabilities. I would also assume Overlords could launch from it, as it’s supposedly bedecked in small hangars. Things like Reivers and Suppressors would make some sense as well.

 

Tactically, it makes sense to do away with drop pods and let the superior space marine technology and physiology deal with the hostile insertions. It would be better than 1 Marine is lost by AA fire and not 5 or 10.

 

The Repulsors have the same concerns and benefits as drop pods, though now they can move and advance with the Infantry. That’s a straight upgrade. Whilst it’s risky to have so many eggs in one basket... if you are dropping Repulsors then it’s a heavy engagement anyway.

 

I can only assume that the Overlord doubles as the primary recovery vehicle of assets on the ground. Has it been said If the Overlord is capable of vehicle lift capabilities? I haven’t read the latest novels. Since you have to recover the marines anyway, this would make sense.

 

It’s my main gripe with the bikes... the fact that they are wheel based requires a delivery vehicle. A bike with Repulsor tech would be so cool! I imagine the new Speeder would be droppable from orbit as well.

 

The only issue is this new ship only can handle 50 marines. I wonder if a company has two of these attached to their Strike Cruisers or not. Would love to get a in depth look at a Primaris only Chapters operations. We have had a lot fleshed out. But we need it fleshed out more. Traditional Space Marines could still use these and I wonder how incorporated these Ships are in any given Chapters Fleet.

[Skywrath]

What does this have anything to do with the Grey Knights codex and what they will do in the future for a faction using a different book?

Because we still use half, if not most of the generic space marine stratagems, even if we arent considered "space marines"..?

Edited October 3, 2020 by Skywrath

[Captain Idaho]

Definitely, from a gameplay perspective.

 

I think I like the Primaris models too much to drop any, however.

This right here is a great reason to keep anything.

 

I love my Cataphractii Terminators and I feel with the lost of Transhuman Physiology and a 4+ Invulnerable save, I'm sure I'd prefer them over regular Terminators but for the aesthetic.

[WrathOfTheLion]

If we look glass half full, it does mean WYSIWYG I can use those inner circle knights cenobium as deathwing knights with some work and it don't matter one bit.

[Ishagu]

 

Definitely, from a gameplay perspective.

 

I think I like the Primaris models too much to drop any, however.

This right here is a great reason to keep anything.

 

I love my Cataphractii Terminators and I feel with the lost of Transhuman Physiology and a 4+ Invulnerable save, I'm sure I'd prefer them over regular Terminators but for the aesthetic.

Honestly that Relic datasheet did really disappoint me, however it does allow for some nice weapon selections and Terminators are more durable in general.

[Brother Tyler]

Well color me angry, so that's one more kick in the ribs for the Grey Knights. Two if you consider that the exclusion of transhuman for us means we won't get primaris. See you in tier 4 boys.

  

 

What does this have anything to do with the Grey Knights codex and what they will do in the future for a faction using a different book?

Because we still use half, if not most of the generic space marine stratagems, even if we arent considered "space marines"..?

 

While the Grey Knights are Adeptus Astartes they are far too different from the other Chapters to be rolled into Codex: Space Marines well. This has been discussed elsewhere (in the Grey Knights forum - you were there). As far as losing anything that is specific to the Primaris, that sucks, but follows GW's logic (i.e., why would the Grey Knights legacy Space Marines retain something that their counterparts in other Chapters are losing?).

 

Regardless, this discussion is about those Adeptus Astartes that are covered in the new Codex: Space Marines. The Grey Knights are the lone loyalists exceptions. Discussion about the impacts of changes on the Grey Knights should be taken up in the Grey Knights forum. And we shouldn't jump to conclusions. We haven't even seen any previews of the modified Grey Knights rules so we can't be certain about anything that isn't generic.

[Captain Idaho]

Honestly that Relic datasheet did really disappoint me, however it does allow for some nice weapon selections and Terminators are more durable in general.

You are right. I would have preferred them to be how they were of course but Teleporting in with a Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannons etc is better firepower and the benefits to using a Chaplain is equally super.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[GreyCrow]

Agree with Ishagu, Tacticals are the big winners there. Especially for attrition based armies like Ultras, Iron Hands and Fists. They'll be getting some serious buffs with a very strong core of Tacticals as a centerpiece.

 

I'll still field Ultramarines Primaris only though. They didn't get buff so much statistically, but their stratagems are quite beastly. I think GW managed to strike a decent balance between the Firstborn and the Primaris.

[Snazzy]

I'm not seeing it.  Tacticals are still as bad as they've ever been, fewer in number than before, and take even more to kill.  Absolutely the wrong direction for them.

[Ishagu]

I'm not seeing it. Tacticals are still as bad as they've ever been, fewer in number than before, and take even more to kill. Absolutely the wrong direction for them.

But that's not true at all. They are twice as durable, in many ways.

 

Can they be killed? Of course! But they are now notably tougher and more durable than the troops of other factions. With the exceptions of others Astartes of Custodes.

 

Keep in mind that if the opponent is using more powerful weapons to deal with your troops, it means some other unit might be left undamaged.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

I'm not seeing it.  Tacticals are still as bad as they've ever been, fewer in number than before, and take even more to kill.  Absolutely the wrong direction for them.

 

Heretic to the Codex! Tacticals are fantactics! :D

 

There's a secret to make them work, but it's not flashy and people usually hate seeing them. Even with the increased points costs, I plan to run 40 at 2000pts still.

[Snazzy]

 

But that's not true at all. They are twice as durable, in many ways.

 

Can they be killed? Of course! But they are now notably tougher and more durable than the troops of other factions. With the exceptions of others Astartes of Custodes.

 

Keep in mind that if the opponent is using more powerful weapons to deal with your troops, it means some other unit might be left undamaged.

 

 

No, they are only twice as durable against 1D weapons.  Most of the weapon choices people made to kill SMs before this upgrade are still going to smoke 2W SMs.

 

And, the comparison to other Astartes Troops is exactly what i'm talking about.  Run the math of a Bolter Boy against another Bolter Boy some time.  Tacticals didn't need another wound, a range extension, and a 3 ppm increase.  They needed their Bolters to kill more frequently, Combat Blades, or some other boost specific to Tactical Squads in order to improve their effectiveness.  Right now they are still dependent on their selections for Special, Heavy and SGT weapons to make an impact.  The  point gap between Intercessors and Tacticals will be filled by those upgrades, and the Tacticals will still be inferior.

 

 

Heretic to the Codex! Tacticals are fantactics!

 

There's a secret to make them work, but it's not flashy and people usually hate seeing them. Even with the increased points costs, I plan to run 40 at 2000pts still.

 

 

I run 40 CSM at 2K.  You'd think i'd be more sympathetic.  I'm more upset that after they made drastic changes like moving Scouts to Elites (thereby invalidating my army) they still have Tacticals running around with the exact same problems they've always had-being Bolter Boys.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Not sure what could be done then. Upgrade their bolters and you've just got Intercessors. Give them combat blades, you've got bolter-armed Assault Intercessors with 1 less attack. It's pretty much the intent of GW that if they just have basic weapons, then Intercessors are better, because they're stuck having only bolters, whereas the whole point of the Tactical Squad is that it has flexibility in weapon loadouts.

[Minsc]

As much as I like my Intercessors, Incursors and Assault Intercessors, they can't shoot 4 meltashots (or 7 plasmashots) while also punching heretics in close combat with a thunderhammer, nor can they sit safely in a Rhino or a Drop Pod.

Tacticals went from "meh" to "fine" fine in my book with the 2W-change. 

[Ishagu]

@Snazzy

 

Actually you want your troops to hold objectives and engage other infantry as much as anything.

 

Tacticals never have been, nor should they be, the main damage dealers.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It's worth pointing out that tacticals can use the melta bomb stratagem as well, which IMO is a really strong one.