GW and their recent approaches

[armarnis]

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

 

i was fuming when i read it has rules for deathguard. its like slapping our faces for buying only 1 book...

 

 

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

 

 

can you go a bit more into detail? how i it be MY STRICT WAY thats denying me the ability to play a primaris captain with a thunderhammer? its the :cuss: book that offers no option, like the captain says "ohhh bois, now i am primaris, i dont wanna carry the heavy stuff anymore!" how hard can it be to say a thunderhammer is 50 points for a primaris captain? its not like they had to cut on ink expenses in the printshop, i hope? because that would be MIND-BLOWING

Edited November 21, 2020 by armarnis

[Volt]

I would think Crusade is really not something you play with competitive mind set, it is from the ground up meant to be goofy, one of the "beer and pretzel" modes of gameplay that GW is known to have a tendency for. However in the context of how it plays, that is where making your own rules and modifications is more welcome when organising a group. Just explaining that the leveling system may be a bit jank and needs some minor tweaks so we don't have a Captain going Zangief on a Swarmlord is valid. That being said though, I feel crusade may work better as a means to help new players build an army over time, and not meant for more veteran players with an established army (though still nice for a veteran building a new army as well).

Good idea but I don't think balance was a concern for crusade.

The issue is that it's so unbalanced it becomes unwinnable after a certain point due to snowballing. Even if you just randomly generate stats to avoid purposefully breaking things, you still end up broken due to the way things stack. Especially for marines or similar elite armies, it's really biased in their favor until armies like Orks or Tyranids in a Crusade just fall behind and get ruthlessly stomped. Whoever was designing this system either doesn't mind curbstomps or simply didn't actually play it out until you start getting units above blooded, because holy crap.

 

The thing just falls apart after a while because things start stacking until you have terminator sergeants with 4 wounds, Librarians who just gak out psychic powers and vehicles that simply don't miss while shooting. Etc. Maybe it'll get better after some more codices roll out, but it definitely feels like very little critical thought on how this was supposed to work even in a beer and pretzels sense, because the buffs they hand out is just nuts. The blooded stat already would be sufficient in terms of increases, but if you were to play long enough you could literally bring a character up to the point they could bushwhack a Primarch.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

40k will never be balanced you just have to accept it for what it is.

[Volt]

40k will never be balanced you just have to accept it for what it is.

You don't need competitive balance. You just need somebody to go "are we sure that this is a good idea when after just 3 victorius play sessions this captain can now go toe-to-toe with guilliman is a good idea?", because Crusade really does not feel as it it had any thought put into it beyond "wow so coooooool" with the design team not actually thinking, ever, about what happens if somebody starts to bushwhack their friend for 5 games in a row accidentally and causes the game to fall apart. Which is the ultimate problem, it's so imbalanced that if you use buffs at all (which is also the main point of crusade) you can easily just see people walking because they literally cannot win.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Crusade is for narrative gaming it’s not intended for competitive play.

[Halandaar]

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

 

If the DE and DG rules in the Warzone book aren't also in the Codexes, or at least strictly limited to campaign games only, then I am going to be absolutely livid. Psychic Awakening (i.e. adding new content years after Codex release) is one thing, but having the Codex not be the definitive rules source from day one is outrageous.

[Tyriks]

My group has played Crusade exclusively since 9th dropped and we have had zero problems like that.  Particularly since winning the game and maximizing exp are often not mutually compatible.  The only issue we've had to address is that one specific agenda in the Space Marine codex was too good and we had to reign it in.  

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

If the DE and DG rules in the Warzone book aren't also in the Codexes, or at least strictly limited to campaign games only, then I am going to be absolutely livid. Psychic Awakening (i.e. adding new content years after Codex release) is one thing, but having the Codex not be the definitive rules source from day one is outrageous.

At best they have badly communicated this

 

Will be interesting how this (campaign) book sells

[Volt]

Crusade is for narrative gaming it’s not intended for competitive play.

...yes and this has literally nothing to do with what I said? If one player is losing every single game, or the vast majority, they are going to walk on a campaign.

 

 

My group has played Crusade exclusively since 9th dropped and we have had zero problems like that.  Particularly since winning the game and maximizing exp are often not mutually compatible.  The only issue we've had to address is that one specific agenda in the Space Marine codex was too good and we had to reign it in.  

Problem is that XP doesn't scale equally with victory and defeat, and some units just don't seem to benefit much at all from buffs compared to others. You can slather traits on Ork Boyz but it doesn't really help them not just get wiped off the board, especially if there is literally no space to use Da Jump. But if you use traits on just say, tactical marines, they can get pretty gnarly at just blasting orks off the table. Crusade is heavily biased to elite armies when it comes to boons, either their HQ's or troops. It's going to get very nasty for Crusade games when Custodes and Death Guard get their rules, as you could conceivably turn units into Primarch equals.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve seen some Crusade games on YouTube and it looks like fun to me. Play with like minded people.

[Volt]

I’ve seen some Crusade games on YouTube and it looks like fun to me. Play with like minded people.

Dude you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Look over the Crusade rules and start randomly generating traits or slapping relics on units while also factoring in WT's and codex relics. Even if you are non comp it breaks. Not in a friendly manner, but in the sense units become godlike and stupidly out-perform their native stats. Once you actually get into a Crusade, especially one where one player has eeked out an advantage, they are going to snowball. The only way to not snowball is to literally ignore the rules GW put down for Crusade by completely equalizing XP gain or by simply not using upgrades beyond a single point.

 

Which kind of defeats the purpose. The issue at hand is that GW didn't simply not balance Crusade as a narrative gameplay, they didn't even think things through to their logical end even if done purely randomly. Crusade is miserable to play if you don't manage to win an equal amount of times as your opponent, or worse get tabled/sustain mass casualties constantly. Your units are going to have negative traits pile up or have to shed XP every time they roll a 1 on a casualty roll, whereas the other player who keeps his units alive/wins with frequency becomes a monster. GW can wink and flick their nose about balance "because it's narrative" as some nonsense excuse, but fundamentally you need some level of balance where the entire idea of prolonged sequential games doesn't become statistically impossible for one player to actually win past a certain point.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I know a lot of people enjoy playing Crusade. Except for here I haven’t heard anything bad really tbh. I know this thread is all about what’s wrong with GeeDub but like I said I find if you play with people that want the same thing fun can be had .

[Evil Eye]

 

I’ve seen some Crusade games on YouTube and it looks like fun to me. Play with like minded people.

Dude you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Look over the Crusade rules and start randomly generating traits or slapping relics on units while also factoring in WT's and codex relics. Even if you are non comp it breaks. Not in a friendly manner, but in the sense units become godlike and stupidly out-perform their native stats. Once you actually get into a Crusade, especially one where one player has eeked out an advantage, they are going to snowball. The only way to not snowball is to literally ignore the rules GW put down for Crusade by completely equalizing XP gain or by simply not using upgrades beyond a single point.

 

Which kind of defeats the purpose. The issue at hand is that GW didn't simply not balance Crusade as a narrative gameplay, they didn't even think things through to their logical end even if done purely randomly. Crusade is miserable to play if you don't manage to win an equal amount of times as your opponent, or worse get tabled/sustain mass casualties constantly. Your units are going to have negative traits pile up or have to shed XP every time they roll a 1 on a casualty roll, whereas the other player who keeps his units alive/wins with frequency becomes a monster. GW can wink and flick their nose about balance "because it's narrative" as some nonsense excuse, but fundamentally you need some level of balance where the entire idea of prolonged sequential games doesn't become statistically impossible for one player to actually win past a certain point.

 

Explains why it's been pretty well-received and regarded as one of the best things to come out of 40K in recent years. Oh wait.

 

[Scribe]

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

I adore blaming the player. Tell me more about your newsletter.

[chapter master 454]

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

 

Not even playing ultra-strict, you want that go play 4th with a rhino blocking LoS to a unit on top of a 6" tall terrain piece. I am just playing with the book GW sell only physical copies of now (no e-pubs anymore) and will likely have more content added via other publications that are physical only and thus by the time we are done I will have a thunder hammer worth of books to cave in the doors of GWs team responsible for these actions! I jest ofcourse relating to knocking down doors but you get the idea.

No the app is not acceptable. It would barely pass if e-pubs were still around but since it is trying to fill what they left, it falls flat.

 

As for maybe the players are the problem? Hmm...me thinks someone is missing the point here. The people are the players and players are the source of money. However there is more to 40k than just money. Player good will goes a long way and it can even be related to things happening over in Magic the Gathering. Companies just looking for a quick buck and not knowing the power of having those that give word of mouth and old guard players who show new players the ropes.

Disenfranchising your old player base, your die-hard fans will outright kill your game if not now but eventually. AoS only survived by effectively the sheer force of luck if anything by my records, being panned heavily by many and only now has it really become respectable.

 

If GW has a problem with players then maybe they should stop making them mad? Not sure but if players are a problem maybe they should adjust to what players want?

Naturally this forum creates echo chambers and vocal minorities are easily seen over the content majority because the minority is making a lot of noise so that can be a case that what we see here is just a minority, me and a handful of fraters aren't happy and we are trying to discuss it. However if we get upset enough to walk then I suppose no loss to you really if we are a minority, GW doesn't care really. However the question there is what if the majority isn't happy and walks? That would be a problem for everyone.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is it possible to know how many are truly unhappy? Often it is said there is a vocal minority that has issues... people who enjoy the gaming are content.

[NovemberIX]

 

 However if we get upset enough to walk then I suppose no loss to you really if we are a minority, GW doesn't care really. However the question there is what if the majority isn't happy and walks? That would be a problem for everyone.

 

I wanna add to this, in my case, if I walk, it's not just me who stops buying from GW, my family and friends that buy stuff around Christmas, birthdays, and just because, my buddy who mainly tags along because I'm interested in it, my nephews who I am just introducing to the hobby are all out. Maybe it influences my gaming group, especially since I host most games, so if we change systems, that's 4 more guys and their friends and their family lost. Being established players, we're pretty comfortable with regular purchases, often large, because we wanted to model something new, or wanted a new faction, or there was just a cool new release.  At some point, that insignificant loss of income becomes pretty significant.

None of us would be here complaining to the audiant void that is a discussion forum on the internet if we didn't want to prevent that for ourselves, and other consumers of games workshops products.

 

I would hazard to say, at some point this thread or another needs to ask the question, there are problems, what gets fixed, and how?

[Dark Shepherd]

Is it possible to know how many are truly unhappy? Often it is said there is a vocal minority that has issues... people who enjoy the gaming are content.

This site whilst awesome is probably not the best bellweather as its very deep in the bubble/hardcore/niche

 

Not scientific but...facebook might be the better barommeter, not just warcom but things like goonhammer, auspex tactics, or vaguely soundly modded fb groups

[MegaVolt87]

Crusade as a product probably wasn't intended for you to max out your stats/ upgrades. Kinda like D&D where you seen to conclude before the party can trivialize the GM's campaign. If you hit the point of where the level ups are overbearing, it's probably time to wrap up the campaign and plan the next one from scratch.

 

The bigger issue isn't the crusade stuff, but the new faction rules that are basically day one dlc like videogames that complement new codexes. What is in added to the new DG dex via this new expansion will give us the answer on GW's 9th ed game model.

[Gederas]

The bigger issue isn't the crusade stuff, but the new faction rules that are basically day one dlc like videogames that complement new codexes. What is in added to the new DG dex via this new expansion will give us the answer on GW's 9th ed game model.

Same thing as the last Crusade Mission pack. Special rules for the specific factions that are involved in said warzone. Pariah Nexus had SPECIAL RULES for Space Marines and Necrons in the missions. They were mission-specific rules.

 

[tychobi]

My big complaint is the lack of respect for the customer who likes to know what the rues are. The sheer weight of volumes needed to know what is going on is daunting. The app promised to bring it all together but predatory pricing and poor implementation make it extremely unappealing. The hostile take over of ITC assets cements my belief that GW is determined to claw in all the profit they can community be damned. Spending money on lame hype is not community engagement, its marketing. I would love to be proven wrong and see GW make moves that truly foster the community that pays the bills. But shareholders rule gamers drool.

[Stofficus]

My big complaint is the lack of respect for the customer who likes to know what the rues are. The sheer weight of volumes needed to know what is going on is daunting. The app promised to bring it all together but predatory pricing and poor implementation make it extremely unappealing. The hostile take over of ITC assets cements my belief that GW is determined to claw in all the profit they can community be damned. Spending money on lame hype is not community engagement, its marketing. I would love to be proven wrong and see GW make moves that truly foster the community that pays the bills. But shareholders rule gamers drool.

There certainly seems to be a drive to monetize rules as aggressively as possible. The sheer number of books involved in just keeping up with one faction is pretty daunting, which strongly dis-incentivizes playing multiple factions. 

 

There was a point in early 6th where I had Death Korps, regular IG, Marines and Tau on the go simultaneously, whereas nowadays which I still have some of those model collections, I don't bother updating anything beyond my Marines - it's already a case of codex, core rulebook, major expansion, chapter approved + who knows almost every year, which increase the "boring" part of my hobby expenses anything above an absolute minimum? I'll drop 50 euro pretty easily on a cool unit - for a bunch of rapidly obsolete books? Not so much. 

 

I can still use the very first Cadians I bought in the fuzzy mists of history, but I've got more useless books than I'd like to think too hard on, with GW eager to get more and more out of me. 

[MegaVolt87]

 

The bigger issue isn't the crusade stuff, but the new faction rules that are basically day one dlc like videogames that complement new codexes. What is in added to the new DG dex via this new expansion will give us the answer on GW's 9th ed game model.

Same thing as the last Crusade Mission pack. Special rules for the specific factions that are involved in said warzone. Pariah Nexus had SPECIAL RULES for Space Marines and Necrons in the missions. They were mission-specific rules.

 

I think you mean Beyond the Veil? That's also a crusade book like plague purge. Warzone Charadon looks like a traditional campaign book that will add content for the factions to use in both matched and narrative play. Its got DE in it as well, their dex is announced, so its possible ad mech and imperial knights are the next two codexes to come to tie in with this book. It still is basically day one DLC if its matched play related. 

[ThePenitentOne]

 

The bigger issue isn't the crusade stuff, but the new faction rules that are basically day one dlc like videogames that complement new codexes. What is in added to the new DG dex via this new expansion will give us the answer on GW's 9th ed game model.

Same thing as the last Crusade Mission pack. Special rules for the specific factions that are involved in said warzone. Pariah Nexus had SPECIAL RULES for Space Marines and Necrons in the missions. They were mission-specific rules.

 

 

 

Not true. The new agendas, relics battle traits and scars, as well as the cool investigation rules could be used by any and every faction in the game, as could the Theatre of war rules. They were not a part of the missions; they appeared in a separate section before the mission chapter begins.

 

PA: Pariah + Pariah Flashpoint series in WD talk about the forces in the Pariah Nexus; Beyond the Veil contains very little information of this type by comparison.

 

I would expect the new campaign book to be similar to the PA: Pariah and Flashpoint articles, while the mission pack will be similar to Beyond the Veil. I think the guys in the preview video even used the word "Flashpoint" to describe the point in space where the new books will be set. The forces described in the campaign books and flashpoint articles are the dominant forces in the battles fought in that theatre of war, and yes, the campaign book is certainly going to give those forces special rules.

 

But they are not necessarily the ONLY forces to fight in that theatre, and if the pattern holds, the mission pack will give Crusade specific content to any army that fights in that theatre, not just those who drive the story that appears in the associated Campaign book.

[Lexington]

My big complaint is the lack of respect for the customer who likes to know what the rues are. The sheer weight of volumes needed to know what is going on is daunting. The app promised to bring it all together but predatory pricing and poor implementation make it extremely unappealing.

 

This is one of my biggest complaints of late, too. Despite the attempt to make the App a big deal, it's still beholden to artificial dead tree divisions in the product. which really devalues it. The rules for factions are spread across so many different books, it makes the 40K App a very unappealing experience. If I buy the rules for Orks, I want all the rules for Orks, not some of them, with the rest being in separate, $50 expansions that need to be bought in order to get a few Stratagems and Relics. With paper rules, at least you have the excuse of needing a full published product. Tying the App to that just makes it feel an entirely secondary experience to printed rules, which isn't helped by the fact that it's maybe the worst general phone app I've ever seen anyone ask money for. That they want five bucks a month for it - a ludicrously high price by app standards, not to mention within a market space where these sorts of things are regularly provided free - is truly amazing, and I hope the way it's been so widely panned and ignored by the community is teaching GW a thing or two.