GW and their recent approaches

[chapter master 454]

I would think Crusade is really not something you play with competitive mind set, it is from the ground up meant to be goofy, one of the "beer and pretzel" modes of gameplay that GW is known to have a tendency for. However in the context of how it plays, that is where making your own rules and modifications is more welcome when organising a group. Just explaining that the leveling system may be a bit jank and needs some minor tweaks so we don't have a Captain going Zangief on a Swarmlord is valid. That being said though, I feel crusade may work better as a means to help new players build an army over time, and not meant for more veteran players with an established army (though still nice for a veteran building a new army as well).

Good idea but I don't think balance was a concern for crusade.

[Eternal Despair]

One of the things that still irks me to this day with GW and their store is the lack of a universal store policy with respect to the use of forgeworld models in their store, I don't care at this point if they disallow their use or not but I'm sick of walking into a local GW and not knowing if I can crack out my forge world models, whether they're for Necromunda, Titanicus or Heresy. The same goes for whether or not games of heresy are able to be played in store. Between the half dozen GW stores I've been to over the last 5 years I've gotten everything from no worries it's all good, to you can use the minis but you can't play heresy as its not a game supported in store to lastly if you bring forgeworld into the store again to play with I'm going to have to ask you to leave. And this goes beyond just gaming I've had a mate asked to remove his cerastus lancer from his armies on parade display as it isn't a "citadel" miniature.

 

And look I've heard the different arguments for and against, I understand that they don't sell FW product so in some managers eyes it doesn't make sense for them to promote it either directly or indirectly, same goes for Heresy as a game system I'm just frustrated with the fact that GW's policy on the topic of forgeworld is shrugging their shoulders and pointing at the store managers 

 

The other thing I find disappointing is that there isn't and so far hasn't been a proper starter box for the Horus Heresy, the closest we got were the Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero boxes which while absolutely fantastic value for the price still weren't proper starters. Even if you were to consider them starter boxes I have to ask, why is it the only game system that GW supports that has no starter/entry point box in production. 

 

And lastly the decision that has caused the most amount of damage in my local community by the New GW is the use of localised currency coupled with a signifigant price rise on products with which far outweigh the "convenience" benefits. Now I live in Australia and I know it's slightly different to NA who did get a warehouse and distribution centre in Memphis as well as the citadel in Texas but we were told that this change would introduce 3 benefits:

 

1. everything would be displayed in our local currency at a fixed price ie it didn't do a straight conversion of the kits value from pound to AUD

 

2. because we payed in our local currency we wouldn't be hit with any fees relating to the change of currency by our banks

 

3. a vague promise of faster shipping which at least for us in australia turned out to be same day dispatch. 

 

Unfortunately we got slapped with the typical GW price gouge for being a foreign consumer, now obviously we all expected some buffer in the price conversions because none of us expected GW to take a loss on the conversion but it was taking the piss, generally it's around a 25 is percent increase just comparing the numbers on the web page but it gets worse when you realise that the UK site includes the 20% VAT, which due to the fact they are selling to a consumer outside the EU they don't have to charge so long as they can prove they sold it to someone outside the EU and the tax they do have to pay, the GST is only 10%, well you can see why more than a few of us were upset with the change to pricing. that price difference far outweighed any fee a bank ever charged me or my mates for buying with a foreign currency. As for shipping, and all this was long before covid, was the same if not worse in terms of speed. Now granted I've only ever gotten express shipping or that I'm an international customer so maybe thats why I never saw the benefit but same day dispatching of producting has done basically nothing for me.

[AenarIT]

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

[Special Officer Doofy]

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

Haha yeah. Kind of stupid. The DG stuff should just come in the DG codex.

[alfred_the_great]

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

[armarnis]

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

 

i was fuming when i read it has rules for deathguard. its like slapping our faces for buying only 1 book...

 

 

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

 

 

can you go a bit more into detail? how i it be MY STRICT WAY thats denying me the ability to play a primaris captain with a thunderhammer? its the :cuss: book that offers no option, like the captain says "ohhh bois, now i am primaris, i dont wanna carry the heavy stuff anymore!" how hard can it be to say a thunderhammer is 50 points for a primaris captain? its not like they had to cut on ink expenses in the printshop, i hope? because that would be MIND-BLOWING

Edited November 21, 2020 by armarnis

[Volt]

I would think Crusade is really not something you play with competitive mind set, it is from the ground up meant to be goofy, one of the "beer and pretzel" modes of gameplay that GW is known to have a tendency for. However in the context of how it plays, that is where making your own rules and modifications is more welcome when organising a group. Just explaining that the leveling system may be a bit jank and needs some minor tweaks so we don't have a Captain going Zangief on a Swarmlord is valid. That being said though, I feel crusade may work better as a means to help new players build an army over time, and not meant for more veteran players with an established army (though still nice for a veteran building a new army as well).

Good idea but I don't think balance was a concern for crusade.

The issue is that it's so unbalanced it becomes unwinnable after a certain point due to snowballing. Even if you just randomly generate stats to avoid purposefully breaking things, you still end up broken due to the way things stack. Especially for marines or similar elite armies, it's really biased in their favor until armies like Orks or Tyranids in a Crusade just fall behind and get ruthlessly stomped. Whoever was designing this system either doesn't mind curbstomps or simply didn't actually play it out until you start getting units above blooded, because holy crap.

 

The thing just falls apart after a while because things start stacking until you have terminator sergeants with 4 wounds, Librarians who just gak out psychic powers and vehicles that simply don't miss while shooting. Etc. Maybe it'll get better after some more codices roll out, but it definitely feels like very little critical thought on how this was supposed to work even in a beer and pretzels sense, because the buffs they hand out is just nuts. The blooded stat already would be sufficient in terms of increases, but if you were to play long enough you could literally bring a character up to the point they could bushwhack a Primarch.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

40k will never be balanced you just have to accept it for what it is.

[Volt]

40k will never be balanced you just have to accept it for what it is.

You don't need competitive balance. You just need somebody to go "are we sure that this is a good idea when after just 3 victorius play sessions this captain can now go toe-to-toe with guilliman is a good idea?", because Crusade really does not feel as it it had any thought put into it beyond "wow so coooooool" with the design team not actually thinking, ever, about what happens if somebody starts to bushwhack their friend for 5 games in a row accidentally and causes the game to fall apart. Which is the ultimate problem, it's so imbalanced that if you use buffs at all (which is also the main point of crusade) you can easily just see people walking because they literally cannot win.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Crusade is for narrative gaming it’s not intended for competitive play.

[Halandaar]

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

 

If the DE and DG rules in the Warzone book aren't also in the Codexes, or at least strictly limited to campaign games only, then I am going to be absolutely livid. Psychic Awakening (i.e. adding new content years after Codex release) is one thing, but having the Codex not be the definitive rules source from day one is outrageous.

[Tyriks]

My group has played Crusade exclusively since 9th dropped and we have had zero problems like that.  Particularly since winning the game and maximizing exp are often not mutually compatible.  The only issue we've had to address is that one specific agenda in the Space Marine codex was too good and we had to reign it in.  

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

Should we add the DG and DE day 1 dlc (the new war zone something act 1 book for 40k) to the list of GW’s recent approaches to cash grabbing?

If the DE and DG rules in the Warzone book aren't also in the Codexes, or at least strictly limited to campaign games only, then I am going to be absolutely livid. Psychic Awakening (i.e. adding new content years after Codex release) is one thing, but having the Codex not be the definitive rules source from day one is outrageous.

At best they have badly communicated this

 

Will be interesting how this (campaign) book sells

[Volt]

Crusade is for narrative gaming it’s not intended for competitive play.

...yes and this has literally nothing to do with what I said? If one player is losing every single game, or the vast majority, they are going to walk on a campaign.

 

 

My group has played Crusade exclusively since 9th dropped and we have had zero problems like that.  Particularly since winning the game and maximizing exp are often not mutually compatible.  The only issue we've had to address is that one specific agenda in the Space Marine codex was too good and we had to reign it in.  

Problem is that XP doesn't scale equally with victory and defeat, and some units just don't seem to benefit much at all from buffs compared to others. You can slather traits on Ork Boyz but it doesn't really help them not just get wiped off the board, especially if there is literally no space to use Da Jump. But if you use traits on just say, tactical marines, they can get pretty gnarly at just blasting orks off the table. Crusade is heavily biased to elite armies when it comes to boons, either their HQ's or troops. It's going to get very nasty for Crusade games when Custodes and Death Guard get their rules, as you could conceivably turn units into Primarch equals.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve seen some Crusade games on YouTube and it looks like fun to me. Play with like minded people.

[Volt]

I’ve seen some Crusade games on YouTube and it looks like fun to me. Play with like minded people.

Dude you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Look over the Crusade rules and start randomly generating traits or slapping relics on units while also factoring in WT's and codex relics. Even if you are non comp it breaks. Not in a friendly manner, but in the sense units become godlike and stupidly out-perform their native stats. Once you actually get into a Crusade, especially one where one player has eeked out an advantage, they are going to snowball. The only way to not snowball is to literally ignore the rules GW put down for Crusade by completely equalizing XP gain or by simply not using upgrades beyond a single point.

 

Which kind of defeats the purpose. The issue at hand is that GW didn't simply not balance Crusade as a narrative gameplay, they didn't even think things through to their logical end even if done purely randomly. Crusade is miserable to play if you don't manage to win an equal amount of times as your opponent, or worse get tabled/sustain mass casualties constantly. Your units are going to have negative traits pile up or have to shed XP every time they roll a 1 on a casualty roll, whereas the other player who keeps his units alive/wins with frequency becomes a monster. GW can wink and flick their nose about balance "because it's narrative" as some nonsense excuse, but fundamentally you need some level of balance where the entire idea of prolonged sequential games doesn't become statistically impossible for one player to actually win past a certain point.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I know a lot of people enjoy playing Crusade. Except for here I haven’t heard anything bad really tbh. I know this thread is all about what’s wrong with GeeDub but like I said I find if you play with people that want the same thing fun can be had .

[Evil Eye]

 

I’ve seen some Crusade games on YouTube and it looks like fun to me. Play with like minded people.

Dude you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Look over the Crusade rules and start randomly generating traits or slapping relics on units while also factoring in WT's and codex relics. Even if you are non comp it breaks. Not in a friendly manner, but in the sense units become godlike and stupidly out-perform their native stats. Once you actually get into a Crusade, especially one where one player has eeked out an advantage, they are going to snowball. The only way to not snowball is to literally ignore the rules GW put down for Crusade by completely equalizing XP gain or by simply not using upgrades beyond a single point.

 

Which kind of defeats the purpose. The issue at hand is that GW didn't simply not balance Crusade as a narrative gameplay, they didn't even think things through to their logical end even if done purely randomly. Crusade is miserable to play if you don't manage to win an equal amount of times as your opponent, or worse get tabled/sustain mass casualties constantly. Your units are going to have negative traits pile up or have to shed XP every time they roll a 1 on a casualty roll, whereas the other player who keeps his units alive/wins with frequency becomes a monster. GW can wink and flick their nose about balance "because it's narrative" as some nonsense excuse, but fundamentally you need some level of balance where the entire idea of prolonged sequential games doesn't become statistically impossible for one player to actually win past a certain point.

 

Explains why it's been pretty well-received and regarded as one of the best things to come out of 40K in recent years. Oh wait.

 

[Scribe]

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

I adore blaming the player. Tell me more about your newsletter.

[chapter master 454]

Perhaps GWs problem is the players.

 

And I'm being serious: some of the comments about Legends, about the "lack" of customisation etc, are genuinely mind-blowing.

 

It's a game, play it how you want to; but if you choose to play it in one ultra-strict way, then don't complain about the impact of your interpretation.

 

Not even playing ultra-strict, you want that go play 4th with a rhino blocking LoS to a unit on top of a 6" tall terrain piece. I am just playing with the book GW sell only physical copies of now (no e-pubs anymore) and will likely have more content added via other publications that are physical only and thus by the time we are done I will have a thunder hammer worth of books to cave in the doors of GWs team responsible for these actions! I jest ofcourse relating to knocking down doors but you get the idea.

No the app is not acceptable. It would barely pass if e-pubs were still around but since it is trying to fill what they left, it falls flat.

 

As for maybe the players are the problem? Hmm...me thinks someone is missing the point here. The people are the players and players are the source of money. However there is more to 40k than just money. Player good will goes a long way and it can even be related to things happening over in Magic the Gathering. Companies just looking for a quick buck and not knowing the power of having those that give word of mouth and old guard players who show new players the ropes.

Disenfranchising your old player base, your die-hard fans will outright kill your game if not now but eventually. AoS only survived by effectively the sheer force of luck if anything by my records, being panned heavily by many and only now has it really become respectable.

 

If GW has a problem with players then maybe they should stop making them mad? Not sure but if players are a problem maybe they should adjust to what players want?

Naturally this forum creates echo chambers and vocal minorities are easily seen over the content majority because the minority is making a lot of noise so that can be a case that what we see here is just a minority, me and a handful of fraters aren't happy and we are trying to discuss it. However if we get upset enough to walk then I suppose no loss to you really if we are a minority, GW doesn't care really. However the question there is what if the majority isn't happy and walks? That would be a problem for everyone.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is it possible to know how many are truly unhappy? Often it is said there is a vocal minority that has issues... people who enjoy the gaming are content.

[NovemberIX]

 

 However if we get upset enough to walk then I suppose no loss to you really if we are a minority, GW doesn't care really. However the question there is what if the majority isn't happy and walks? That would be a problem for everyone.

 

I wanna add to this, in my case, if I walk, it's not just me who stops buying from GW, my family and friends that buy stuff around Christmas, birthdays, and just because, my buddy who mainly tags along because I'm interested in it, my nephews who I am just introducing to the hobby are all out. Maybe it influences my gaming group, especially since I host most games, so if we change systems, that's 4 more guys and their friends and their family lost. Being established players, we're pretty comfortable with regular purchases, often large, because we wanted to model something new, or wanted a new faction, or there was just a cool new release.  At some point, that insignificant loss of income becomes pretty significant.

None of us would be here complaining to the audiant void that is a discussion forum on the internet if we didn't want to prevent that for ourselves, and other consumers of games workshops products.

 

I would hazard to say, at some point this thread or another needs to ask the question, there are problems, what gets fixed, and how?

[Dark Shepherd]

Is it possible to know how many are truly unhappy? Often it is said there is a vocal minority that has issues... people who enjoy the gaming are content.

This site whilst awesome is probably not the best bellweather as its very deep in the bubble/hardcore/niche

 

Not scientific but...facebook might be the better barommeter, not just warcom but things like goonhammer, auspex tactics, or vaguely soundly modded fb groups

[MegaVolt87]

Crusade as a product probably wasn't intended for you to max out your stats/ upgrades. Kinda like D&D where you seen to conclude before the party can trivialize the GM's campaign. If you hit the point of where the level ups are overbearing, it's probably time to wrap up the campaign and plan the next one from scratch.

 

The bigger issue isn't the crusade stuff, but the new faction rules that are basically day one dlc like videogames that complement new codexes. What is in added to the new DG dex via this new expansion will give us the answer on GW's 9th ed game model.

[Gederas]

The bigger issue isn't the crusade stuff, but the new faction rules that are basically day one dlc like videogames that complement new codexes. What is in added to the new DG dex via this new expansion will give us the answer on GW's 9th ed game model.

Same thing as the last Crusade Mission pack. Special rules for the specific factions that are involved in said warzone. Pariah Nexus had SPECIAL RULES for Space Marines and Necrons in the missions. They were mission-specific rules.