GW and their recent approaches

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My main complaints of recent corporate behavior are:

 

• removing the Books/e-Pub option
• requiring hardcopy purchases to unlock the app's version of the codex
• app design (from my initial impressions)
• having to buy the rulebook for crusade rules while getting the matched play rules and core rules in the GT book
• slim pickings for ~5 years for my factions' models and unit options

I've lived through editions of "all marines, all the time" and I'll live through this one though I hope it isn't a whole edition lifecycle.

Hang in there soldier.

 

First we need to know why they don’t/don’t want to.

 

 

Depending on how you choose to view it, they don't want to add any customization beyond what's on the shelves because either

• They don't want anything in a Codex that you can't buy in a store, or
• They don't want to give any opportunities to 3rd party bits makers

I've heard both from reliably connected sorts, and it's likely that there's multiple "real" answers to the question. What's clear is that the lack of customization has nothing to do with the game in and of itself. In fact, as we get further into the "New GW" era, I think it's much more useful to view their games less and less as actual games, and more as interactive marketing efforts that kind of look like games, but with mechanics that are motivated more by sales funnels than by actual game design concerns. Now, I'm sure at this point some deeply insightful people are just itching to explain that it's always been that way, and that's true to an extent, but that extent has changed pretty radically over the last several years. I think the player base should act on that fact accordingly.

Actually we know they can do customization for Primaris due to chapter blisters they have released.

[Lexington]

 

Depending on how you choose to view it, they don't want to add any customization beyond what's on the shelves [...]

Actually we know they can do customization for Primaris due to chapter blisters they have released.

 

We're operating from very different definitions of "what's on the shelves," apparently. 

[NovemberIX]

That’s comparing apples to oranges at best.

I'd call it comparing one company to another company they want to emulate. At the end of the day, they are both corporations that manufacture an unnecessary but enjoyable product. If there's one point about support I wanna make it's this, Legends is great, and I'm glad it exists as a stopgap, but what about the things that don't make it into legends? The Land Raider Ares? Razor Back Rikarious? Badab War units? Apoc formations? Siege Dreadnoughts?! IF GW keeps this way, at some point it ends up like back when Enzo's service department annoyed Ferruccio into making more than just tractors. Let's just hope I haven't walk away before then.

 

 

No doubt if you paid them for it, they'd even be able to find you ways to incorporate and update engine parts and possibly even some body features to get you some of the latest gadgets (you know, like how we pay GW for Codexes to use products we bought from GW).

Luxury products tend to like supporting customers, because word of mouth is a great way to get new customers. When there's a lack of support, bad word of mouth builds, and then the company doesn't expand as much as it could, etc.

Continuing to stretch the automotive analogy,  Jaguar now offers drop in electric motors to modernize the classic 1960's E-types, that's the kinda thing I want outta GW, just ongoing support, but I admit it would be cool if GW had a Special Projects division and Henry Cavill asked them to cast his Custodes out of pure gold cause he feels the same way about painting we all do :D

 

One last automotive related tangent, most brands have a halo car that is an aspirational goal and supposed to inspire buyers to their products, I think it's pretty clear Imperials have the biggest aspiration goal right now with the Warlord Titans, but what equivalent is there for Xenos?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would never compare geedub to an automotive manufacturer that is an equation for disaster. Also a lot of people can afford plastic minis but not Uber expensive sports cars.

[MegaVolt87]

I would never compare geedub to an automotive manufacturer that is an equation for disaster. Also a lot of people can afford plastic minis but not Uber expensive sports cars.

Actually, GW is more like Mercedes Benz. Plastics are C class and up, FW are AMG/ S class in terms of asperations. There is no denying GW considers themselves as a premium brand such as Merc/ Ferrari etc. Their pricing model is definitely prestige pricing, not average joe consumer pricing model.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mercedes is a much better comparison especially if you EU.

[NovemberIX]

I think Mercedes is a great fit for the analogy, I only use Ferrari as GW themselves have said their intent was to be "the Ferrari of miniatures".

[MegaVolt87]

I think Mercedes is a great fit for the analogy, I only use Ferrari as GW themselves have said their intent was to be "the Ferrari of miniatures".

EDIT Redacted- don't jojo and post people.

 

 

GW Completely delusional thinking they're ferrari, Merc at best lol.

Edited November 20, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[chapter master 454]

The car analogy is not exactly....fitting in any context really. For a company like Ferrari who make each piece in a far more costly and bespoke manner, it is a far cry from what GW have to do. However it is their short term choices in relation to this matter that hurts. They have opted to create moulds for rather weak selling power models such as many of the primaris line in my opinion, while things like even the relic age eldar kits still hold selling power beyond even just the unit within. The matter at hand is that those moulds are extremely expensive to make and use due to the special machinery involved, you can't just make those moulds on a whim nor on a product that won't sell past 3 units to a customer. Even for the most popular faction, you need to be sure the faction can sell the kit over and over again via hooks, such as being unique beyond easily magnetised guns or having actual options that most opponents wouldn't even know which part was the wargear (which the Repulsor chassis suffers from...so...baneblades have 11 barrels of hell...guess repulsors have 110 barrels of annoyance!).

The tactical squad box is empowered by the same fact that the vanguard box is empowered by the same fact that the sternguard box is empowered by the same fact the assault squad box is empowered by the same fact that the devastator box is empowered by the same fact the command squad kit has: they are all interchangable. I'm sorry but what game system has a faction where 6 different boxes that by themselves are stand-alone are also effectively expansion packs for each other. That is what made marines so cool to collect and play. That isn't even accounting for the crossing of faction related bits such as Dark Angel's robed parts, Space Wolves Nordic theme gear or Blood Angels with their uniquely relic looking detailing. The value of that makes those moulds far more valuable as when you release a new unit for that line, lets say they released some new special weapons team: boom, not only does that ADD to the current line of boxes but also is given support for customisation by the other kits.

Meanwhile, a new primaris unit gets released and it does nothing to boost anything before it. In fact it actually hurts those that come before as people just want to get their set of it and move on and this may make someone just leave those kits behind due to not being as needed or good (reivers spring to mind here as the day 1 flop of primaris still to this day). If there was cross compatibility with their kits and modularity I give a good certainty that reiver kits would not be backed up as bad because their bits are very unique and have a certain flair to them (in fact I remember some people saying they would make great bits for Chaplain conversions...didn't seem to stick...I wonder why!).

 

The ability to have cross kit compatibility being literal arm, head or torso swaps actually helps weaker kits still have a place as they may often good conversion pieces for other models. Sternguard squad may not be good but by the emperor they are a gold mine for making Lieutenants! As are Vanguard vets. Needing a different heavy weapon for your tacticals? Devastator box will cover that and you still get a squad of devastators! Even assault marines have some unique bits that can't be acquired elsewhere which could make some awesome models (the two-handed chainsword springs to mind).

 

Customisation doesn't hurt sales, it improves them. Even if 3rd parties step in, they can only offer so much and even then they can also help drive sales of units if one of them makes a cool conversion kit (personally not a fan of the stormsurge default but the Stormwave conversion kit...that made me want one for that alone!). Heck, some conversions even drove GW re-designs such as the Broadside going from shoulder mount to arm mounting of the main railgun.

 

You want something to last? Build it to be enjoyed by those who come next.

"A nation grows strong when men plant trees they will never enjoy the shade of"

Edited November 20, 2020 by Dusktiger

[Tyriks]

I will say, I feel there are a few things I don't like about GW that have been brought up here that aren't actually bad decisions so much as things I just don't like.  Their movements to protect their IP me off frequently, but I doubt I would do anything differently if it was me calling the shots.  Raising prices is unfortunate but they literally can't keep stock on the shelves, so again, I would likely do the same in their shoes.  

 

But, knowing they want to move towards a 'no model, no rules' status quo, WHY are they not just making kits that have options?  This decision truly baffles me.  It lowers risk financially by increasing the number of people who might want it and increases the chances of people buying multiples, especially for characters.  I really liked the AdMech releases back in 7th because nearly every kit was a dual kit, so most of my units ended up a weird hybrid that looked at least somewhat unique.  I don't even mind the posing of Primaris (there's enough variation to avoid making identical duplicates if you try) but I would buy more kits if there were more meaningful choices, even if they were just cosmetic stuff like more heads or shoulder pads.  They've been moving in this direction long enough that models we are seeing now were designed with this in mind, so why are the options on individual models getting more restricted instead of less?  I just really can't fathom it.

 

All that said, I do think it's worth pointing out that Legends rules is support for those models.  Whether we (as a community or individuals) like it or not, or whether we use it or not, is not relevant.  I personally don't like the way they've done it (especially since I have a lot of FW units for my TS that I now can't use even with Legends), but it is support.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Dusktiger
use the swear emoji instead of cussing.

[Gederas]

I am in agreement. GW isn't Ferrari. More like Mercedes because they're over-priced and kind of garbage for what you pay. However, the comparison falls flat because at least to my knowledge, most of the people who buy GW product aren't stuck-up jerks who have more money than sense (I work for AAA and let me tell you, Mercedes drivers are the worst when they call in).

 

Edit: You know what, calling him out isn't worth the effort

Edited November 20, 2020 by Gederas

[Halandaar]

But, knowing they want to move towards a 'no model, no rules' status quo, WHY are they not just making kits that have options?

Because it costs more, and players typically rail against higher costs. Wargear options take up sprue space and then something has to give, either in terms of fewer bodies relative to wargear options (which drives complaints of lower value), or more sprues in the box which increases the price (which drives complaints of lower value).

 

A perfect example is the Multipart Plague Marine kit. When it came out there were complaints that it was the same price as the Rubric Marines kit despite having three fewer models in it. That extra sprue space was taken up by a huge amount more wargear options than Rubrics have, but it didn't stop the complaints. Then to add an element of farce, there were just as many complaints that there weren't enought components on the PM kit to build all the possible loadouts listed on the datasheet. The only way GW could have resolved that one would be to include an extra sprue with all the extra bits on, which would increase the price further and lead to even more complaints about how expense a box of 7 guys is.

 

So the solution GW seems to have come up with is to limit the datasheets strictly to what the kits can fit on them, which prevents people complaining that they can't build their preferred loadout from the kit, and reduces the need for a second-hand or third-party bits market to fill in the gaps. This, as we are seeing in this thread, also leads to complaints (loss of customisation).

 

Its a no-win situation for GW really. If they have a unit with limited options supported by a kit that contains them all, people complain. If they have a unit with lots of options that aren't on the corresponding kit, people complain. And if they increase the price of kits to accommodate extra options and supporting components, people complain.

 

I'm not saying that I think the current paradigm is the correct one (I don't), but I can to some extent understand why it exists and presume GW think that this is the option that prompts the fewest overall number of complaints.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Halandaar

[Cpt_Reaper]

Chaos Terminators come to mind. Ypu cannot build a squad with their default loadout with the box.

 

A box must be able to build every member with the default loadout, and then include 1 of each optional upgrade. Want a full squad of a certain loadout? You'll need multiple boxes. Third party can provide those options? Another reason GW need to make their own weapon frames. The Mk II/III/IV weapon frames from Forge World are exactly what GW needs to do in plastic for each faction.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

 

But, knowing they want to move towards a 'no model, no rules' status quo, WHY are they not just making kits that have options?

Because it costs more, and players typically rail against higher costs. Wargear options take up sprue space and then something has to give, either in terms of fewer bodies relative to wargear options (which drives complaints of lower value), or more sprues in the box which increases the price (which drives complaints of lower value).

 

 

 

You are writting as if a law existed how big a box can be and what can it contain. And as if GW prices were dictated by production costs. The issue has been repeatedly discussed on this forum and it is clear that the direct production costs for no model surpass 50%, and in case of characters sold as single models that percentage is ridiculously low. The argument from investments necessary to add an extra sprue holds true for small companies with very limited sales and consumer base but not for a company of GW scale. If GW wanted to add an extra sprue to e.g. the Intercessor box, the price change based SOLELY on the production costs would be insignificant. However, GW wants to maximize profits and keep them  growing as fast as possible, they want their money right now, so a revolutionary idea of selling more on lower prices with longer-term gains is anathema to them. And come on, GW is ok with FLGS selling their stuff at 80% of GW price, what means even now there is huge reserve to amortise the extra costs IF they wanted to keep the prices unchanged. But they don't. They have every right to conduct their buissiness however they want, even more if, as it seems, their current strategy is working and consumers are OK with it, but don't defend them with production costs.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

 

How would you solve all their problems if they made you CEO tomorrow chief

For starters, good CEO's listen to other experts and advisors, along with market research/ customer feedback in decision making. Also clever ones don't get their community managers/ PR people to prune off complaints from corporate socials. The even better ones address the public directly, apologize for mistakes and announce step's to correct the problem along with a timeframe. New GW may be engaged far more with the community than ever before, however they are talking at you, not with you and that's something a lot of people have failed to notice about "new" GW

 

Agreed, they're "engaged", but they don't actually talk. Ever seen adults brush off toddlers and young tikes?

 

"...and then the bear went and ate the carrot, but there weren't any carrots"

 

"that's great sweetie, I love you, go to that corner and drink your juice for me okay?"

 

"What about the bear mom? What are we gonna do?"

 

"No really, that's lovely"

 

The above was an actual exchange I heard outside a daycare here, and I was just passing by. GW is the same way.

 

 

GW socials merely re-post/ like hobby content. The few rare questions/ responses they respond to are softball questions from known GW positive people or are to praise posts. Hard questions and legitimate respectful complaints are swiftly deleated or radio silent on. That social engagement level is peak talking at your customers/ community, not with them.

My friend asked about a picture that showed some photography of marines on their main 40k page, inquiring where are the Firstborn - the community team blanket statement'd "The picture is cropped, there's a lot more marines in the picture and background, some of which are Firstborn". Picture came out in a codex, aaaaaaand that was a lie. He even likes primaris, and HE felt slapped by that. 

 

 

 

My main complaints of recent corporate behavior are:

• removing the Books/e-Pub option
• requiring hardcopy purchases to unlock the app's version of the codex
• app design (from my initial impressions)
• having to buy the rulebook for crusade rules while getting the matched play rules and core rules in the GT book
• slim pickings for ~5 years for my factions' models and unit options

I've lived through editions of "all marines, all the time" and I'll live through this one though I hope it isn't a whole edition lifecycle.

Hang in there soldier.

 

First we need to know why they don’t/don’t want to.

 

Depending on how you choose to view it, they don't want to add any customization beyond what's on the shelves because either

• They don't want anything in a Codex that you can't buy in a store, or
• They don't want to give any opportunities to 3rd party bits makers

I've heard both from reliably connected sorts, and it's likely that there's multiple "real" answers to the question. What's clear is that the lack of customization has nothing to do with the game in and of itself. In fact, as we get further into the "New GW" era, I think it's much more useful to view their games less and less as actual games, and more as interactive marketing efforts that kind of look like games, but with mechanics that are motivated more by sales funnels than by actual game design concerns. Now, I'm sure at this point some deeply insightful people are just itching to explain that it's always been that way, and that's true to an extent, but that extent has changed pretty radically over the last several years. I think the player base should act on that fact accordingly.

Actually we know they can do customization for Primaris due to chapter blisters they have released.

 

I would hardly call their upgrade 'blisters' in-depth customization. 

 

Chaos Terminators come to mind. Ypu cannot build a squad with their default loadout with the box.

 

A box must be able to build every member with the default loadout, and then include 1 of each optional upgrade. Want a full squad of a certain loadout? You'll need multiple boxes. Third party can provide those options? Another reason GW need to make their own weapon frames. The Mk II/III/IV weapon frames from Forge World are exactly what GW needs to do in plastic for each faction.

The Chaos Terminators are GREAT sculpts. The box is goddamn depressing. If you want five chainaxes, you have to buy five boxes. If you want a full squad of paired lighting claws, you need three boxes. If you want chainfists, I think it's five again. 

 

That's really bull:cuss. They want to limit 3rd party really badly, but then they go ahead and do something like this? At least include enough in the box for the *basic* load out you have in the codex at the time of release, y'kow?

 

 

 

 

How would you solve all their problems if they made you CEO tomorrow chief

For starters, good CEO's listen to other experts and advisors, along with market research/ customer feedback in decision making. Also clever ones don't get their community managers/ PR people to prune off complaints from corporate socials. The even better ones address the public directly, apologize for mistakes and announce step's to correct the problem along with a timeframe. New GW may be engaged far more with the community than ever before, however they are talking at you, not with you and that's something a lot of people have failed to notice about "new" GW

I disagree geedub is doing so much better at PR now seriously.

 

There are questions like how to bring back customization that need a real well thought out answer.

 

They really aren't though. Radio silence when asked hard defining questions. Or asking for better communication. They don't tell us their thoughts, we get pissed off. All the Last-chance-to-buy scandals? When they wouldn't announce it ahead of time, no email either  - just poof it's LCTB on the website. Repeat a dozen times between 2018-2020. The huge movement on socials about #BringbackCalth, with thousands of posts numbering lots of tweets and likes? Yeah - you have to be willingly blindfolded if you work for a companies' social media platforms to NOT have seen those waves.

 

Instead - silence. Let's say they WERE good at PR. (They aren't) The response that's neutral enough, but appeasing enough to soothe things over (and at the very least prevent tag spamming and filter it out a bit) would be;

 

"Hey, we hear you loud and clear. We can't talk about this at all at the moment, apologies." Alt;

"Your voices are heard." (even more vague, but thats corporate speak for ya')

 

 

 

 

There are questions like how to bring back customization that need a real well thought out answer.

As I see it, “you can replace [basic weapon] with any any option from the [weapon type] List” doesn’t really require much thought. Heck, even if that’s melting brains in the Studio, they could just open up one of the ancient tomes collectively known as “any Codex released before 8th Edition” to see how it’s done.

 

Very cheeky, I like that. 

 

 

 

-edit- my posts got double posted for some reason, I think I removed all the duplicates? Apologies!

Edited November 20, 2020 by Hungry Nostraman Lizard

[chapter master 454]

I would say yes, there is an issue with the chaos terminator kit there but that is a failing on the sprue designers. Clearly a mistake by all accounts.

 

If GW were so receptive to a few people complaining about a sub-faction of a faction they hardly care about right now with comparison to another sub-faction they hardly care about at all then I would think GW may of not kept on the Primaris line so long nor done them the way they have!

 

Kind of funny though...7 marines was it...was GW actually showing a sign of a soul with a fun reference to Nurgle's number?

 

I will counterpoint however that the tactical box has never had all the options it needs (core of that is heavy weapons) but yet people love it. I think for all my kneejerk to Primaris, while some of it I feel has overtime maintain some valid points, GW needs to not take Day 1 release reviews as gospel what people want and see how well the kit holds up after 6 months to a year. Is it still selling? Is it just bottomed out and never sells again? Is it steadily always selling? Those sort of questions need to be asked, reviewed and then considered for future kits. Primaris are a crux of this, why buy more once you are "done" with your allotment allowed in game? Unless you are a Whale and intend to make ANOTHER primaris army, you don't have much reason to (and whales are the anomaly of the hobby, not the rule. We all wish we were whales!). But I still have reason to buy a tactical box.

 

A kit needs more reason to exist outside of "this unit is busted good"..."for now". I present the Executioner your honour, executed for crimes not its own.

[Dark Shepherd]

Executioner is a good example of price gouging

€15 more than a Repulsor for one changed sprue, not additional, changed

 

Impulsor is €60...imagine what Gladiator will be

 

My favourite other aggregious example is Fenrisian Wolves. Very simple, 2 part models, gone from €17.50 to €30 since start of 8th

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

Chaos Terminators come to mind. Ypu cannot build a squad with their default loadout with the box.

 

A box must be able to build every member with the default loadout, and then include 1 of each optional upgrade. Want a full squad of a certain loadout? You'll need multiple boxes. Third party can provide those options? Another reason GW need to make their own weapon frames. The Mk II/III/IV weapon frames from Forge World are exactly what GW needs to do in plastic for each faction.

The Chaos Terminators are GREAT sculpts. The box is goddamn depressing. If you want five chainaxes, you have to buy five boxes. If you want a full squad of paired lighting claws, you need three boxes. If you want chainfists, I think it's five again. 

 

That's really bull:cuss. They want to limit 3rd party really badly, but then they go ahead and do something like this? At least include enough in the box for the *basic* load out you have in the codex at the time of release, y'kow?

 

Just want to make sure I didn't fail to word my point right.

 

Yes, they are lovely sculpts. The reason I refuse to buy any new Chaos Terminators is because I don't want to go through the amount of kitbashing I went through to give my squad power swords back in...I wanna say 5th or 6th Edition. The new box is like being given a brand new car (this thread mentioned cars a lot so...yeah) and finding out it only has 1 wheel, half a roll cage, a tank tread, the instructions to a supercharger that isn;t included and an engine snorkel. if you want all 4 wheels you need to buy another three cars but now your other 3 cars are stuck with tank treads.

 

A squad box should be able to build the default loadout of their datasheet. The Terminator box cannot do that.

 

Just jumping onto Forge World, and looking at Horus Heresy Infantry Upgrades I can see:

• Catachpractii Special Wapons set - $50AUD: one reaper autocannon; one plasma blaster; two combi-weapons, each with four optional attachments to create combi-flamers, combi-meltas, combi-plasmas, or combi-grenade launchers; two power mauls; three thunder hammers; and five Cataphractii Terminator armour left arms, making this set compatible with plastic Cataphractii Terminator armour.  
• Mk III weapons set - $60: ten melta-bombs, five pairs of arms, three Phobos-pattern bolt pistols, three power fists, two lightning claws, two power axes, two power swords, two power gladius, one sheathed gladius, two chainswords, two hand-flamers, two plasma pistols, two volkite serpentas, a thunder hammer, a power maul and a heavy chainsword.

Now $50 and $60 AUD isn't super cheap, I'll agree with anyone who brings that up. However:

• Chaos Terminators are $98
• the above listed packs are resin kits from Forge World. I assume it would be chaper in plastic. 5 metal marine special weapons are $17 AUD. Primaris upgrade frames are $22. Ravenwing Accessory Pack (arguably the clost thing to what I'm trying to desribe) also $22.
• the same kits could be chaper from 3rd party designers but won't have that exact 40k vibe. They will get close but will only ever get close (even if they are down right gorgeous in their own right).

If GW charged say $30AUD for a pack of weapons for each race I'd okay with that. Also means you can take options out of Legends and back to legit choices.

[Bryan Blaire]

Guys, don't get too hung up on the brand of car - plenty of the durable goods companies provide service and support for products long after they are "obsolete", and most of the time that they can't, it's because of a change in electronics or regulations - you can get a 20 year old GE fridge serviced by GE, you can get the Ford dealership to install LED light conversion wiring harnesses into a 1960s Ford truck, and my 16 year old Honda still got its clutch replaced at the Honda dealership, you can get Carrier AC parts from your Carrier service rep for a 20 year old AC (mine's almost 30, and they still seem to support it fine with OEM parts). Yes, you still pay for it - but we still pay for Codexes too.

 

Metal and plastic models can outlive your human lifespan with the right care - there's nothing other than corporate will that prevents their original producer from supporting rules for those models or even conversions of those models until the company's bankruptcy or other terminal corporate activity. If there is something other than internal will preventing them from providing that support, then they should be truthful about it and not try to feed us some sop lines.

 

As far as the options thing - the upgrade sprues are the same size sprues as the Captain, Librarian, Chaplain, and Apothecary have - the characters are two of them, with a base. It's hard to tell absolutely for sure, but there's approximately the same amount of plastic in the characters' sprues as the upgrades, given that the upgrades are more densely packed with bits than the pieces of the heroes are. The upgrade sprues have two sprues and some decals for $25, the heroes are $35. So discounting the decals, a single upgrade sprue is $12.50, while the hero sprue is $17.50. So right away, even granting some extra money for plastic, the hero sprues seem to be about $3-4 per sprue too high, and have space on them for more stuff. Even if GW needed to produce an extra "options" sprue within the hero boxes, pricing the sprues at $12.50 each would only make the price of the hero boxes $37.50, only $2.50 more than currently, and surely better value.

 

Even if GW doesn't want to increase the cost of kits with extra weapon options, if they would simply offer up some upgrade sprues with additional weapon options, it would probably ameliorate some anger people have over costs - remember, it's not just costs themselves that people take umbrage to, it's the perceived value of the kits themselves. There may be more acceptance of needing to get a second, lower cost add-on to get the full optional and optimal load-out for a squad of something.

 

Admittedly, GW would need to tred a fine line in a situation like this - if you make the optional upgrade sprues the only place you can get the optimal squad weapons, that's only going to engender more complaints of money grab antics, etc. They would either need to ensure balance amongst a squad's options in the box or that they place the adequate amount of each type of weapon in the kit. Placing only one of a basic load-out (unless it is a single character or a heavy weapon the squad can take only one of anyway) in a kit, and then requiring you to buy more to make all squad members is probably going to ruffle feathers, but as Halandaar said, GW is going to be in a rough spot no matter what. They aren't going to please everyone with their decisions.

 

The current options set up definitely seem less like an issue with the sprues and production though, and more of design decisions to prevent things like third-party bits usage - "No reason to buy that extra thunder hammer from a 3rd party dealer for your hero, you can't use it anyway! Clearly we aren't going to produce any options that you can't take."

[Rik Lightstar]

To play Devil's Advocate and offer some counterpoints:

 

The Legends topic and references to ongoing support for them keeps rearing its head, here's the text from the Legends documents which people seem to be misinterpreting:

 

 

The rules here can be used in any type of play – open, narrative or matched, and full points are provided to help you balance your forces. Warhammer Legends will not form part of our ongoing balance review for the wider Warhammer 40,000 game – and we don’t recommend Legends units for competitive tournaments.

 

This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee that everything they’re gaming with is easily available to everyone and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process.

 

Of course, organisers are also free to specify that they will be including Legends rules if they like, allowing the use of the full classic range at their event.

 

it's pretty clear that the rules are intended to be useable for any play outside of tournaments.

 

That seems like a reasonable position to be taking. The only real reason I can see for the tournament exclusion is that they don't want to create a secondary market for particular Legend units if they're found to be the optimal math hammer unit.

 

Anyone outside of a tournament who refuses to play against these units is failing pretty miserably at their reading comprehension.

 

 

On unit options, I totally agree that a unit box should include everything required to make the unit with the default loadout and certainly be able to make a decent competitive build too. The Sternguard and Vanguard boxes are pretty much exactly where a boxed unit should be at on the front of contents.

 

Someone (can't remember who) said there's no cost to putting more sprues into a box, this isn't quite true as the boxes come in a number of standard sizes and adding a sprue could easily take something from the 6"x9"x1" standard "unit" box to the next size up which is 9"x12"x3" so SIX times the shipping and shelf space volume which have noticeable costs associated.

 

Rik

[The Yncarne]

Perhaps somebody will run a legends only tournament.

 

It also seems to me that GW has moved to a sales model that involves selling fewer models, but at higher prices. This change does affect the community and sales for minis, but GW is now more than minis.

[Bryan Blaire]

 

Warhammer Legends will not form part of our ongoing balance review for the wider Warhammer 40,000 game

Anyone outside of a tournament who refuses to play against these units is failing pretty miserably at their reading comprehension.

Or, and I know this might shock some people, they can read just fine, and simply want to play only with Codex and game material that all parties know have been part of the balancing reviews of the game. That may be more important to them than it to others, regardless of how well GW actually does balancing. It is an admission on GW's part that they can't be bothered to keep doing something, without stating why. They trotted out the line that keeps being used "can't support something forever" - and they don't have to, their company won't last forever, just explain why these units are all of the sudden not worth your time - other companies do support things long after they are sold and have ceased production.

 

I personally don't mind Legends, I just find it part of the dumb pile that GW has foisted on us.

 

GW themselves made it "non-universal" for use when they took and even admits it by saying that they don't recommend it for a certain segment of play. Doesn't matter if that's what the folks are playing, if that's important to them.

 

Someone (can't remember who) said there's no cost to putting more sprues into a box, this isn't quite true as the boxes come in a number of standard sizes and adding a sprue could easily take something from the 6"x9"x1" standard "unit" box to the next size up which is 9"x12"x3" so SIX times the shipping and shelf space volume which have noticeable costs associated.

While true, remember that it is GW that has selected these standard sizes as well. They could very easily also have a 6"x9"x1.5" box, and it would increase the price of shipping a little bit, it wouldn't require it to be six times the cost.

[Rik Lightstar]

 

 

Warhammer Legends will not form part of our ongoing balance review for the wider Warhammer 40,000 game

Anyone outside of a tournament who refuses to play against these units is failing pretty miserably at their reading comprehension.

Or, and I know this might shock some people, they can read just fine, and simply want to play only with Codex and game material that all parties know¹ have been part of the balancing reviews of the game. That may be more important to them than it to others, regardless of how well GW actually does balancing. It is an admission on GW's part that they can't be bothered to keep doing something, without stating why. They trotted out the line that keeps being used "can't support something forever" - and they don't have to, their company won't last forever, just explain why these units are all of the sudden not worth your time - other companies do support things long after they are sold and have ceased production².

 

I personally don't mind Legends, I just find it part of the dumb pile that GW has foisted on us.

 

GW themselves made it "non-universal" for use when they took and even admits it by saying that they don't recommend it for a certain segment of play. Doesn't matter if that's what the folks are playing, if that's important to them.

 

Someone (can't remember who) said there's no cost to putting more sprues into a box, this isn't quite true as the boxes come in a number of standard sizes and adding a sprue could easily take something from the 6"x9"x1" standard "unit" box to the next size up which is 9"x12"x3" so SIX times the shipping and shelf space volume which have noticeable costs associated.

While true, remember that it is GW that has selected these standard sizes as well. They could very easily also have a 6"x9"x1.5" box, and it would increase the price of shipping a little bit, it wouldn't require it to be six times the cost.³

 

 

1. Choosing not to use something is a valid personal choice, it doesn't detract from the fact that the option IS there.
2. The reasoning is pretty clear, it won't be printed in a book if you can't buy the model, again this isn't unreasonable, a Codex is a defacto Faction Catalogue.
3. Those sizes will have been selected for the reasons at the time, however NOW the vast majority of their automated warehousing and their packaging materials are set up to accommodate these, yes they COULD add a new size at "double depth" 6"x9"x2", my point was that it's not without a cost and a potentially more substantial one that the perceived material cost of just sprues and tools. Shipping especially outside of the UK will be a huge part of the product cost and volume on plastic kits will determin way more of the cost than weight, so adding 50% or 100% to the size of a "standard unit" increases the shipping costs by a similar amount.

Rik

[Evil Eye]

Re: Chaos Terminators and similar cases, I feel GW is in a bit of a pickle with how to address that, because when you have units as customizable as Chaos Terminators, there's no "right" approach to boxing them up. They did what they did and people were understandably annoyed that you can't build the stock loadout (and much besides) without buying multiple boxes or converting or whatever. They could have released them with the stock loadout, a few other options and then released the other options as upgrade sprues, but then you'd have people complaining that to get their preferred loadout (whatever that might be) you have to shell out for upgrades/DLC. They could have made the box contain enough parts to literally have any legal build of the 5 Termies in the box possible, but then the kit would have been much bigger and much more expensive...and people would have complained because the price of 5 models was too high. There's no solution that won't cause upset with someone, though personally I'm of the opinion the best answer would be to bring back upgrade sprues/bitz packs. It's not unthinkable either, seeing how Forge World has been handling the Necromunda stuff with the extra weapons for the gangers.

 

I suppose it doesn't help there's a fundamental disconnect between what GW thinks is a good way to build squads and what the community (or, at the very least, a very vocal portion of the community) thinks is a good way. GW usually likes to do mixed loadouts in units, so for example a squad of Havocs with a chaincannon, a missile launcher and two heavy bolters. I personally quite like this approach, as it gives far more character to units (the one exception IMO being Tyranid Warriors, which are IMO cooler when a brood has the majority of the critters having the same weapons). Unfortunately, the current vogue seems to be for every model in a unit to have identical weaponry, exacerbated in cases where a unit will have access to one weapon that is competitively superior to the others (chaincannons for example) and everyone takes that as opposed to anything else. Now there's an argument to be made for both sides, and a discussion on the fundamental divide between rule of cool/your dudes players and the more competitively minded, but I'd be here all day if I went into depth on that. But the long and the short of it is that once again, no matter what option is taken, someone is going to be upset about it.

 

Again, I really think optional upgrade kits are the way to go about it, because unless GW either made, for instance, three separate Retributor kits each armed with all of one weapon option (not practical) or made the boxes three times as big and pricey, both for GW to manufacture and for the customer to buy (not practical either) then there is just no way to fit all the options in one box. One could even argue the recent trend of less options is to try and mitigate the problem by just having less weapons that need cramming into the box, but even if that is true, it's not a great solution. Upgrade kits aren't perfect answers, but they're probably the best.

[Bryan Blaire]

 

• Choosing not to use something is a valid personal choice, it doesn't detract from the fact that the option IS there.
• The reasoning is pretty clear, it won't be printed in a book if you can't buy the model, again this isn't unreasonable, a Codex is a defacto Faction Catalogue.
• Those sizes will have been selected for the reasons at the time, however NOW the vast majority of their automated warehousing and their packaging materials are set up to accommodate these, yes they COULD add a new size at "double depth" 6"x9"x2", my point was that it's not without a cost and a potentially more substantial one that the perceived material cost of just sprues and tools. Shipping especially outside of the UK will be a huge part of the product cost and volume on plastic kits will determin way more of the cost than weight, so adding 50% or 100% to the size of a "standard unit" increases the shipping costs by a similar amount.

Rik

1. Yes, the option is there, sort of. It's just no longer a universally accepted, continually balanced option (as much as the Codexes are, but they really are the keystone to the rules) - so that means it's not an option to some people. I mean, it's an option to drive well also, but it isn't a universal one that folks exercise, so does the fact that it IS an option mean as much?

 

2. We could continue to argue about the "reasonableness" of it for years. To me, not supporting it with some time, pen, and ink is akin to Toyota ceasing to support the driving of Supras through their service departments just because they discontinued the product line (oh, and shockingly they brought that vehicle production back). I get it, it's all about new sales for GW, trust me, I get it - it just doesn't "feel" so good to see such a sales driven decision (especially when they could still garner sales through kit-bashes, possibly even more sales for it, since it wouldn't be an "easy" option like picking something up off the shelf).

 

It may not fit how everyone sees it, and that's fine, but I'd have been fine with a lot less Primaris units to keep some of the Legends units (possibly even bringing some of the older stuff back in new plastic or wider spread production of previously limited edition items) - GW obviously isn't because they want to make sales with "new stuff", even if they still could have supported likely about 75-80% of the new stuff, while still providing that same support to old stuff (and honestly I feel like they 20-25% leeway there is really damn generous).

 

3. Of course it would require an adjustment on GW's part, which would require costs - at this point, consumers are stuck with the additoinal costs no matter what, so it's basically just GW optimizing how much cash they can squeeze out of any one player - that's pretty obviously a knock on effect/Bonus of things like the new Chaos Terminator kit. If I'm going to be stuck with additional costs, I'd at least like to get what I want, hence my argument that GW could do things differently.

 

How substantial an increase in that cost would be is totally up to personal perception though, as none of us (that anyone on the board has made folks aware of) knows actual hard data on what costs inside GW for their processes actually are.

 

Maybe a question GW could ask on their next community survey would be "If we were to add in an additional sprue to hero, troop, and elite kits, would you be comfortable with a 10% price increase in the cost of those kits - knowing that we can't add the options without doing so?" (Maybe just all kits). If (and that's a big if) people were honest and GW were honest about it, the results might be interesting.