GW and their recent approaches

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Perhaps somebody will run a legends only tournament.

 

It also seems to me that GW has moved to a sales model that involves selling fewer models, but at higher prices. This change does affect the community and sales for minis, but GW is now more than minis.

This is definitely not true all you has do is look at Necron Warrior blobs that are very highly resilient and are horde. We have only SM and Necrons for ninth edition rules so far... no way to say what will happen for other horde factions.

[Redcomet]

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Uhhhh a significant part of GW’s model range is 10+ years old

[The Yncarne]

 

Perhaps somebody will run a legends only tournament.

 

It also seems to me that GW has moved to a sales model that involves selling fewer models, but at higher prices. This change does affect the community and sales for minis, but GW is now more than minis.

This is definitely not true all you has do is look at Necron Warrior blobs that are very highly resilient and are horde. We have only SM and Necrons for ninth edition rules so far... no way to say what will happen for other horde factions.

 

 

I will agree to disagree.

Edited November 20, 2020 by The Blood Raven

[Bung]

 

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Uhhhh a significant part of GW’s model range is 10+ years old

As stated before look at Battletech 30+ years. Or other companies offering life time warranty.

[Halandaar]

You are writting as if a law existed how big a box can be and what can it contain. And as if GW prices were dictated by production costs. The issue has been repeatedly discussed on this forum and it is clear that the direct production costs for no model surpass 50%, and in case of characters sold as single models that percentage is ridiculously low. The argument from investments necessary to add an extra sprue holds true for small companies with very limited sales and consumer base but not for a company of GW scale. If GW wanted to add an extra sprue to e.g. the Intercessor box, the price change based SOLELY on the production costs would be insignificant.

 

Maybe, if you're looking at it in terms of how many pence it cost to produce a sprue, but if you look at it from the point of view of opportunity cost, every time you're producing the hypothetical extra sprue, you aren't using that capacity on a whole extra kit. The raw materials, staffing and production capacity that were previously producing 100x 3-Sprue Plague Marine kits are now only producing you 75x 4-Sprue kits. That's 25% less product available to sell from the same production resources invested, to say nothing of the increased design costs for the kit and potentially higher storage and shipping as Rik pointed out. 

 

Now on top of that 25% drop in production, your sales projections are also going to be lower because the sort of people who buy two kits to get all the options only need one, and there's less demand for bits so resellers aren't buying as many boxes either. Okay, a few people who refused to buy the kit without all the options might now do so and make up a little of the difference, but not enough to be significant. This changes the profitability maths quite substantially, and if you're wondering what GW would do about the price of a kit that now costs them more to produce but they sell less of, it ain't "eat the profit hit on a product they can barely keep in stock anyway".

 

Now before you bother jumping down my throat on this, I personally am very much in the customisation first camp and I would rather see options made available, either via bigger kits or upgrade sprues, than neutered in the rules to match kit layouts like they do with Primaris characters (which is stupid). I just think it is daft the way people expect GW to hamstring their own profitability in pursuit of some sort of nebulous good will gains from a notoriously fickle fanbase.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Halandaar

[MegaVolt87]

 

Perhaps somebody will run a legends only tournament.

 

It also seems to me that GW has moved to a sales model that involves selling fewer models, but at higher prices. This change does affect the community and sales for minis, but GW is now more than minis.

This is definitely not true all you has do is look at Necron Warrior blobs that are very highly resilient and are horde. We have only SM and Necrons for ninth edition rules so far... no way to say what will happen for other horde factions.

 

 

You are both half right. Currently points have gone up across the board in 9th,  lowering model counts while prices have increased and continue to increase in the future. In 8th, points dropped in mid-end of life of the edition, model count thus increased, expect the same in 9th. On average, model count increasing or decreasing doesn't matter because prices keep increasing so its going to be expensive either way.

 

Its just wilful mismanagement for unit loadouts, there is no good reason the new havocs box couldn't have had one less missile launcher or heavy bolter (these are also in the new CSM box) to include an extra chain cannon other than a desire to sell 4 seperate boxes of havocs to make a full unit of chain cannons. GW somehow appears to think if they make a unit and its not legends, its mission accomplished- why wouldn't players wish to buy 20 terminators just to make a legal unit of 5 with the listed basic option? Then do a surprised pikachu face when people are actually buying MORE third party bits to make a legal base loadout they can't out of the offered box. You know, I might be into getting 4 boxes of havocs to do this if the prices were very much reduced to follow that model, which actually would work if the prices were much lower because money can still be made on volume sales at a lower margin per box. 

[Bryan Blaire]

Halandaar, I agree with the points in your post, but unfortunately we don't have enough information to actually say just how much those opportunity costs really would be or if there might even more be some hidden benefits - if the same machine can handle the four sprues in the same fashion that they could handle the three sprues, then if it's designed that way from the get go, there may be no loss at all, aside from materials and shipping. That's the problem with the entire "but they could just" of any argument. We don't know for sure, so all of us are just speculating based on our personal "optimal state".

 

What I am sure about is that they know more than they are letting on to us, and they have some very smart folks analyzing most of their decision making in an effort to optimize sales, which may even run counter to the wishes of their own artists. They won't always get it right, but I have no doubt they are doing (at least their level best at) it. There are likely even reasons we have no way to even look at that they've already weighed into the thoughts on pros and cons of options, extra sprues, etc. I think everyone would agree that just like there's no universal acceptance of all elements/Supplements, etc., of the game, there is no universal agreement on whether those decisions and reasons are right/wrong.

[Scribe]

In fact, as we get further into the "New GW" era, I think it's much more useful to view their games less and less as actual games, and more as interactive marketing efforts that kind of look like games, but with mechanics that are motivated more by sales funnels than by actual game design concerns. Now, I'm sure at this point some deeply insightful people are just itching to explain that it's always been that way, and that's true to an extent, but that extent has changed pretty radically over the last several years. I think the player base should act on that fact accordingly.

Ding Ding.

 

We have a winner as usual from Lexington.

 

My biggest problem with GW is when they get away from the GAMES in Games Workshop.

 

Making sure that only GW Stamped and Approved Models, Units, Battalions, and Army Boxes complete with specifically tailored rules are valid, is the sure fire fastest way to lose my interest.

 

If it's not obvious by now, I absolutely hate the direction of the game, and it's only continued to get worse since 6th.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s not true at all... games like Necromunda and Warcry are super popular .

[Scribe]

Yes, and those I believe are with AT the better offerings from GW.

 

Which is possibly why they keep forcing us down particular option paths for the larger games.

[Bung]

That’s not true at all... games like Necromunda and Warcry are super popular .

Not everywhere.

Shadespire lost interested after they started that season stuff like Magic.

Warcry doesnt even sell here after people realized they had to buy the official terrain boxes, too.

After the one they pulled with Necromunda and the Hardcover rules release a year after the box game people refuse to buy that too.

[Halandaar]

Big ole post of sense

Absolutely. All of us are guessing and trying to apply our various viewpoints and biases to the situation to try and make sense of it. The only thing we can be absolutely sure of, as you say, is that there are people at GW who do have the relevant data and make (or advise) decisions based on that data.

 

I think that the "solution" of no options outside of kits is something they have thought out in great detail, weighing up the pros and cons of the other options and ultimately deciding that this is the thing that both gets them the most profits and causes them the least amount of grief. Its not what I'd prefer, but then I'm an external observer with no inside information, not a decision maker at the UKs most successful company of the last year.

[Rik Lightstar]

 

That’s not true at all... games like Necromunda and Warcry are super popular .

Not everywhere.

Shadespire lost interested after they started that season stuff like Magic.

Warcry doesnt even sell here after people realized they had to buy the official terrain boxes, too.

After the one they pulled with Necromunda and the Hardcover rules release a year after the box game people refuse to buy that too.

That's straight up not true about Shadespire in the UK, up until lockdown hit I could go to a 20+ player tournament within an hours travel every 2 or 3 weeks and if I'd been prepared to travel 2 ½ hours I could have pretty much played 3 weeks out of 4.

 

Rik

[Volt]

That’s not true at all... games like Necromunda and Warcry are super popular .

Warcry is a terrible game from an objective point of view by having virtually every part of it being entirely randomized to the point of making strategy functionally impossible. Warhammer Underworlds is a far superior system in terms of good game design, and that's probably because it's driven by a single dude with a clear vision and overarching design. Similar to why the Heresy (for its flaws) was still solid under the direction of Bligh.

[Bung]

 

 

That’s not true at all... games like Necromunda and Warcry are super popular .

Not everywhere.

Shadespire lost interested after they started that season stuff like Magic.

Warcry doesnt even sell here after people realized they had to buy the official terrain boxes, too.

After the one they pulled with Necromunda and the Hardcover rules release a year after the box game people refuse to buy that too.

That's straight up not true about Shadespire in the UK, up until lockdown hit I could go to a 20+ player tournament within an hours travel every 2 or 3 weeks and if I'd been prepared to travel 2 ½ hours I could have pretty much played 3 weeks out of 4.

 

Rik

I am from Germany.

There wasnt even one tourney in travel distance for me and the 2 Flgs i visit have it in the shelf but they are only bought for cheap painting miniatures not for gameing.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

 

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Uhhhh a significant part of GW’s model range is 10+ years old

 

Hehehehe... might want to fix that '1' to a '2'.

 

...20+ years. 

 

Ork boyz come to mind. My god, if Ork boyz were made to look like the Orkz we see on the Speed Freekz vehicles, and lost the dumb gorilla stance (or at least - give the option to NOT pose them that way with extra legs) I would be all over them. 

[Klod]

 

That’s not true at all... games like Necromunda and Warcry are super popular .

Not everywhere.

Shadespire lost interested after they started that season stuff like Magic.

Warcry doesnt even sell here after people realized they had to buy the official terrain boxes, too.

After the one they pulled with Necromunda and the Hardcover rules release a year after the box game people refuse to buy that too.

 

 

We've been playing Warcry since release. We use whatever terrain we have and try to recreate what is shown on the card, and even add our own if we feel like it's to empty. You don't have to buy the official terrain boxes.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Klod

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think we just have to accept some will always have issues for whatever reason and love to discuss about it online. Obviously most don’t feel the same because we can look at their profit and know people are voting with their wallets buying up product. I have alway be half full person myself is just how I like to roll .

[chapter master 454]

I would say their attempts to revive older games and even create off shoots of old games is good however they very often have troubled starts or just seen anaemic support. Necromunda certainly has a lot of potential but I feel part of that is lost somewhere. I mean, it has overall kept niche abilities but something about it just doesn't feel good. Maybe the leveling just doesn't work well is the issue and campaign structuring in the book as is needs some tweaking to not feel rushed. The kits are good though for the most part I there are still plenty of holes they could shore up in various places there but hey, if they don't think it makes enough return on moulds 3rd party can cover that.

 

Hmm...that seems odd...kind of feels like we went full circle...wonder why? Something about 3rd party having a place within the ecosystem of a healthy game system.

 

And I will continue to make it clear: GW may want to be a model company but what drives sales are the games. Don't care how awesome looking those primaris are if they don't have rules. Collectors don't keep the lights on for companies like GW, they never were their target audience.

[Volt]

I think we just have to accept some will always have issues for whatever reason and love to discuss about it online. Obviously most don’t feel the same because we can look at their profit and know people are voting with their wallets buying up product. I have alway be half full person myself is just how I like to roll .

The issue is that the profitable path is the one that leads to reduction of quality. Catering to the lowest common denominator (maximum profit) is not in fact actually good for the brand, as it means diluting/simplifying anything that gets in the way of accessibility. Sales does not determine actual quality, as art nouveau films will perform godawful in terms of profit compared to the ilk of Michael Bay's portfolio, unless we are to uphold the crudest as the best. Additionally, consumers tend to have zero collective awareness, never managing to pool collective bargaining to squeeze what they want out of a corporation - behaving rather as a heavily atomized herd.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like did you know FFG has straight up declared they are going out of business? That must really suck for their customers -> zero support

 

“And I will continue to make it clear: GW may want to be a model company but what drives sales are the games. Don't care how awesome looking those primaris are if they don't have rules. Collectors don't keep the lights on for companies like GW, they never were their target audience.”

 

Wait wud ?

Edited November 21, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[chapter master 454]

Like did you know FFG has straight up declared they are going out of business? That must really suck for their customers -> zero support

 

“And I will continue to make it clear: GW may want to be a model company but what drives sales are the games. Don't care how awesome looking those primaris are if they don't have rules. Collectors don't keep the lights on for companies like GW, they never were their target audience.”

 

Wait wud ?

 

My point was somewhat hazed there. Basically if there isn't a game but reason is there to get the models? Similarly that leads to the concept that if I have the models already I have little reason to get another. Much like say getting certain master grade Gundam kits, you don't get multiple of the same kit; you buy one and move on. In that environment that is fine, that is the point but in GWs shoes having a kit being marketable not just to new player but old players, to invested players, to players with a small collection, with a large collection is very useful for long term health. It retreads my point that the Firstborn kits are healthier than primaris kits, Firstborn kits have yet to even get new expiry yet many primaris kits are rapidly approaching it or have already past it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When you are wrong you are really wrong this I notice. Geedub is both a top miniature and gaming company. You love to dump on them a lot but who cares .

[Scribe]

Like did you know FFG has straight up declared they are going out of business? That must really suck for their customers -> zero support

 

“And I will continue to make it clear: GW may want to be a model company but what drives sales are the games. Don't care how awesome looking those primaris are if they don't have rules. Collectors don't keep the lights on for companies like GW, they never were their target audience.”

 

Wait wud ?

 

If there wasnt a game. I wouldnt buy another model.

[Volt]

Tangent thought, but after playing some Crusade I don't think it's actually that good of a game mode for luff that GW offered, and they really screwed it up. Units snowball way too hard. HQ's swiftly become untouchable via glut of relics, WT's and buffs. Units swiftly bloat beyond measure, and just dumping command points to make up for the difference on the opponent doesn't help. I can't help but feel that while intentions were good, nobody actually played this thing out beyond 3 games, or thinks it's "epic" when a 9 wound terminator captain that's toughness 5 suplexes the Swarmlord like he's a wimp.

 

Crusade is the right idea, but it still needs to be balanced so the player who's been winning doesn't just utterly body their opponent and feel bad. Because holy crap, some of these things are just nuts and break the game without you even needing to try.