GW and their recent approaches

[Bryan Blaire]

Evil Eye, I can't give you any Likes, as I'm already out, but it's appreciated. The only thing I'll say is that for some of the sticklers I've encountered, it will be easier to just accept playing against them with my Lords and Battle Leaders who are made with options not valid on Primaris as non-Primaris. Yes, it may be unreasonable, but GW has differentiated the weapons for this Edition, so it's what I've accepted as a path of least resistance in the "only official" argument.

 

I guess the flip side of that particular stance is that there shouldn't be any issue with playing a standard Astartes Chaplain on Bike as a Primaris version, right? :lol: Sadly, no.

[WARMASTER_]

No, I see very clearly that it isn't an issue for most (so why would you discuss a non-issue, but it's up to each of us to evaluate the use of our time). I also get that it's a non-issue/lack of giving a :cuss by GW, but that particular situation won't stop me griping about it, because I already give them plenty of money for me to do conversions on models with.

 

I'm not sure why it being a non-issue for others means it would need to be something I stop discussing - if others don't want to discuss it, that's fine, no one is trapped in here with me. :lol: It would be nice if the level of discourse was up to what you have been posting, BladeOfVengeance, if people do at least want to discuss it, but some folks clearly don't value that - in which case, they've got no reason to respond other than padding their post count with one liners (sadly, even on Ignore, you still see that people have posted). Seriously, there's been a lot of discourse on a non-issue, so either there is an issue to discuss, or people just want me to stop discussing it - in which case they should walk away, because I won't if they still seem interested in discussing (in this instance, I've got to interpret interest as "bringing the 'non-issue' up in a post).

 

I fully expect that any expanded options GW offered would already have the quality (for instance, the axe I'm using is being built from Gotrek and Adrax parts, so they are already sweet quality bits produced as well as any that have been produced since probably 2014 or so) we're used to in new offers, so I don't think anyone would expect a loss in quality from something like a "extra veterans weapons sprue".

I’m in no way calling it a non issue, I’m saying it seems to be a massive sticking point for some people but unfortunately until we can get new kits with other options we won’t see a change no matter how much griping we do. it’s definitely GW policy now, I’m all for getting a veterans box with loads of options who wouldn’t be?? I’d buy 50 boxes of primaris DA veterans with all the options and cloaks

 

But I also don’t believe it’s as simple as you’re boiling it down to be it’s not GW not giving a s**t nor do I believe it’s something they could fix in 30 minutes as unfortunately they do have to protect their copyright and their ability to make money from investing in the making of plastic minis (which is crazy expensive)

 

I think people get defensive on these issues because it’s either something we’ve come to terms with as a function of the game or we accept that’s the direction they had to go in for model improvements and for IP protect and honestly nothing we do will change it. but the silver lining is that it will also definitely improve as more kits are added to the range

 

Where as I also agree that the model quality was great in 2014 the kits they’re making now far outstrip them say the assault squad was released in I believe 2015 compare that to the assault intercessors from a purely model perspective they’re 10 times better and now also come with loads of options for the sergeant... so it’s definitely improving all round

Edited November 25, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Bryan Blaire]

My hope would be that if enough people really do want to see expanded options, then a call for an expanded options kit for various HQs might make its way into the Community Survey at a high enough rate to trigger a data review for them at least, which might make them go "Hmmmm" and maybe change things down the road. I fully admit that there will be zero change occur swiftly on the subject (and zero change at all on the topic of Legends), there won't be a Errata tomorrow giving out those weapon options to things like the Primaris Captains or even Autarchs (which very much had a removal of options they did have).

[The Yncarne]

@Bryan B: I don't begrudge people that want more options for models. I'd like more weapon options in squad boxes so for example, I could equip 4 las cannon devastators, but I accept that isn't possible at the moment.

 

For me, I'm just tired of juggling ever changing weapon stats in my head. It seems to slow the game down and increases list building paralysis for me. I didn't like it when power weapons got segmented. I don't care if it is an axe, club, sword, pole arm, staff etc I'd prefer a bit more streamlining at that level. I could keep weapon stats in my head 25-30 years ago but not so much now.

 

Again, my point was the difficulty assembling some models have proven for me. 

[MegaVolt87]

40k has always been about creativity, however I am sure GW now regret that past legacy by seemingly moving from it. I bet if GW had a time machine, they would do what warmahordes does with its named characters. So for example, there would be say, first captain Calgar, chaptermaster Calgar, primaris chaptermaster Calgar. Each would have diffrent equipment, rules and stats and only one named Calgar version could be taken in an army. There would be no generic DIY characters. The game would have still been able to evolve as "herohammer" etc. It would also open up new named character iterations such as pre black rage captain Tycho, old marine Tor Garadon etc. Sure it shrinks the univers somewhat, but we would have a much more robust and diverse set of named characters. Plus, there could always be a stream of releases for everyone so no one would be missing out. Also the young ones GW is after like the set named personalities and hero's if we look at vidya/ comics/ superhero revival and following their character arcs. If its one thing GW know how to do well its named character sculpts.

[Lexington]

On the serious side of the discussion Bryan the facts now remain that GW will not give you rules in a codex for model options they don’t produce, we can debate all day why (even though we know it’s because of several law suits they lost and I’ve personally seen the explanation been given to you many many times but it never seems to stick)

I know the feeling, as someone constantly reminding people that this is almost certainly not the real explaination, yet the meme remains. :p

[ThePenitentOne]

40k has always been about creativity, however I am sure GW now regret that past legacy by seemingly moving from it. I bet if GW had a time machine, they would do what warmahordes does with its named characters. So for example, there would be say, first captain Calgar, chaptermaster Calgar, primaris chaptermaster Calgar. Each would have diffrent equipment, rules and stats and only one named Calgar version could be taken in an army. There would be no generic DIY characters. The game would have still been able to evolve as "herohammer" etc. It would also open up new named character iterations such as pre black rage captain Tycho, old marine Tor Garadon etc. Sure it shrinks the univers somewhat, but we would have a much more robust and diverse set of named characters. Plus, there could always be a stream of releases for everyone so no one would be missing out. Also the young ones GW is after like the set named personalities and hero's if we look at vidya/ comics/ superhero revival and following their character arcs. If its one thing GW know how to do well its named character sculpts.

 

The Deathwatch Codex has a Young Chaplain Cassius, while the Ultramarines have post injury Cassius; I haven't checked, but I think some of the characters who have crossed the Rubicon still have Legends rules for their Old Marine versions (could be wrong here).

 

If you wan't characters that grow over time, that's what Crusade is for; it's actually easier and better than having named characters grow, because PLAYERS choose how the character grows, not the company. This way we avoid "Well I loved sergeant X, and I liked Captain X, but Lieutenant X wrecked it for me." Because now players choose every step- heck, a marine character can even become a dread. A BA character can succumb to the rage and join the Death Company.

 

Even without Crusade, the Master Librarian, Master Apothecary, Chapter Master schtick allowed you to level your character, or play two different versions of them interchangeably. There's still plenty of creativity in 40k- it just isn't in matched play because I think GW are trying to accommodate matched players who understandably worry about balance every time something creative interferes with it.

[MegaVolt87]

 

40k has always been about creativity, however I am sure GW now regret that past legacy by seemingly moving from it. I bet if GW had a time machine, they would do what warmahordes does with its named characters. So for example, there would be say, first captain Calgar, chaptermaster Calgar, primaris chaptermaster Calgar. Each would have diffrent equipment, rules and stats and only one named Calgar version could be taken in an army. There would be no generic DIY characters. The game would have still been able to evolve as "herohammer" etc. It would also open up new named character iterations such as pre black rage captain Tycho, old marine Tor Garadon etc. Sure it shrinks the univers somewhat, but we would have a much more robust and diverse set of named characters. Plus, there could always be a stream of releases for everyone so no one would be missing out. Also the young ones GW is after like the set named personalities and hero's if we look at vidya/ comics/ superhero revival and following their character arcs. If its one thing GW know how to do well its named character sculpts.

 

 

The Deathwatch Codex has a Young Chaplain Cassius, while the Ultramarines have post injury Cassius; I haven't checked, but I think some of the characters who have crossed the Rubicon still have Legends rules for their Old Marine versions (could be wrong here).

 

If you wan't characters that grow over time, that's what Crusade is for; it's actually easier and better than having named characters grow, because PLAYERS choose how the character grows, not the company. This way we avoid "Well I loved sergeant X, and I liked Captain X, but Lieutenant X wrecked it for me." Because now players choose every step- heck, a marine character can even become a dread. A BA character can succumb to the rage and join the Death Company.

 

Even without Crusade, the Master Librarian, Master Apothecary, Chapter Master schtick allowed you to level your character, or play two different versions of them interchangeably. There's still plenty of creativity in 40k- it just isn't in matched play because I think GW are trying to accommodate matched players who understandably worry about balance every time something creative interferes with it.

That's the rub. You are missing already the potential loss of what if storytelling for your no name characters. I say if you never had the option, crusade format could still work with exclusively named characters. In place of a custom bespoke character, you would exchange that with a "what if/ alternate timeline" for a named character. So, could do a dreadnaught Tycho etc via narrative play. A named character can make the same style of player narrative progress as a generic one. Comic characters are constantly re-written by the holding entities. In a 40k case, it would be GW officially setting the direction, the player's create the circumstances of alternative arcs etc. 40k could definitely exist without generic character's.

[chapter master 454]

I do want to state that character growth can occur by a player alone. My Warboss for my orks is called GubSkul and he started out as a lowly cheap Nob from a boyz kit. He only had his 'Uge Choppa and Slugga but he led his small group of boyz in a fight against some of those there red beakies who knew howz to have a proper fight!

 

Within that battle, he slew a small group of 5 death company marines (note this game was extremely small, something like 500 odd points just for fun) by himself outright. This would actually become his main thing he always had with him throughout his incarnations. After that little scuffle, he had made a name for himself and with some teef he "Acquired" from his boyz, he got himself a proper Power Klaw with kustom middle claw! He even took one of the shoulder pads from the death company beakies as a trophy. He would go on to again face more beakies that again saw more death company. He eventually after some time managed to get himself a suit of mega armour, and by the by managed to snipe multiple marines with the shoota on it somehow...don't ask but it for some reason was incredible accurate (or was GubSkul lucky?).

 

That warboss took on his own life through custom models that I used. Each one past the first actually had some calling card for the death company on him (the mega armour had the saltire painted onto one of the shoulder plates) and was always something I considered part of his character: he liked fighting them Red Beakies, especially when they brought along those black beakies!

 

However, that sort of fun can be lost if all you have a final product models that have to be set in stone by GW. I mean beyond marines there are a ton of options that are missing across various codices for no reason. Mega Armour warboss? You take thraka or get the zog out. Autarch on foot that isn't Yriel? Get the bone out! Want a HQ variety in Tau Empire without picking Tau Sept? Get the greater good out! (and no shadowsun doesn't count because despite having a special rule for it, she doesn't work with anything outside her own sept: Tau).

 

Ork Warbosses are supposed to be the top ork, capable of having personal battlewagons (something I think should be a mechanic, like one battlewagon being a dedicated transport or whatever) and the best gear yet they can't take mega armour, something that is a symbol of status! Autarchs, master of all the paths of war and yet they never take anything outside of the incredibly underwhelming spear and shield thing. Tau Empire have only 3 HQ options, 1 is limited per detachment and the other 2 are hard locked options with one being a walking banner and the other being a glorified marker drone that improves rapid fire!

 

Headquarter choices should be the very essence of custom. They are the leader, the figure head of your army. The top dog, the noble hero, the vile villain, misunderstood primarch (he did nothing wrong). Not a Stock Photo image!

 

 

However to further another point and sort of go against the grain for Bryan here: there is another crux of my argument that says why they can't fix problems easily which is the moulds. The moulds for Injection Moulding are expensive due to the need to be precisely machined and cared for as the two halves must close together perfectly or cause issues in manufacturing which isn't just a strain on making them physically but also in designing them. You can't just replace these moulds so easily or haphazardly, each one must be made and created with great care and forethought.

Which is why I have concerns for Primaris. Each of those moulds are expensive and must make back their money, however each time it sells it a box the item it creates loses value as it doesn't have value outside of itself. How many Intercessor kits will you need? I would say a good few however after some time, you won't buy anymore for any reason unless you are starting a new primaris army (why? Same models dude. They didn't change). This means eventually those moulds will just be dead weight and not making as much money as other moulds from other lines that may have value.

Firstborn kits have this. They have value outside of their own box. If you make a new firstborn kit and it is made to have the same cross compatibility with it, you not only get the sales from the box itself but also it improves the sales of other kits around it because of people wanting to kit-bash it. Thus those moulds continue to be relevant past their prime while Primaris...well when you release eradicators you won't be boosting any sales of aggressors, in fact...you will be dropping the sales of aggressors if anything.

 

Cross Compatibility between kits strengthens the model line without question. Even the Tau Empire have cross kit compatibility in their crisis suits and commanders, fire warriors and pathfinders and all their drone bits all work with other drone bits due to being universal. So why do Primaris suddenly buck this trend? Why are all the kits just a "1 and done" deal when most kits in the past relating to infantry have use beyond (I mean...bits boxes are kind of a major part of this hobby).

[WARMASTER_]

 

On the serious side of the discussion Bryan the facts now remain that GW will not give you rules in a codex for model options they don’t produce, we can debate all day why (even though we know it’s because of several law suits they lost and I’ve personally seen the explanation been given to you many many times but it never seems to stick)

I know the feeling, as someone constantly reminding people that this is almost certainly not the real explaination, yet the meme remains. :p

My point was more the outcome than the reason why but go on I’ll bite, why do you believe they’re doing it?

[WARMASTER_]

@ Chapter Master 454, I agree with all your point about moulding apart from the perceived long term value of the intercessors because they only have one function, I agree the kits very limited and the assault intercessors are definitely a vast improvement with way more weapon options but the game is growing fast and most people start with space marines, so most people starting the hobby will be buying a few boxes of intercessors, I’ve just bought 2 boxes for more poses of bodies for my Assault guys, then you have vets starting yet another chapter lol. even though they’re a more basic kit the amount people will buy would surprise us all

 

I’m hoping the Assault intercessors are a step forward though, actually having weapon option for conversions in future is a massive bonus to the kit for me also! so I hope GW keep it up as I’m sure they will

[Rik Lightstar]

The cost of the steel injection moulding "tool" for GW has dropped dramatically over the last decade these are pretty much all because of their much wider use of CAD.

 

There are a couple of major reasons:

• They can get the layout of the sprues to be FAR more efficient than they ever could manually for number of components per sprue
• They can simulate the process of using the designed sprue and immediately identify overhangs that would stop the "tool" working
• They can simulate the distribution of injection points to ensure that the entire sprue will be cast every time

The last two of these are the main cost reduction as previously if you got these things wrong the entire "tool" had to be written off and remade which also made for huge delays on expected production dates.

 

So while the actual cost of a single steel "tool" has remained largely the same, they're no longer having to remake the failed ones, as they can just simulate the casting and then rotate pieces or add injection points as required. 

 

They still have a cost and it's unlikely they'll make them willy-nilly, but it has enabled them to do things like the Catachan characters as smaller releases without making a loss.

 

Rik

[Lexington]

 

 

On the serious side of the discussion Bryan the facts now remain that GW will not give you rules in a codex for model options they don’t produce, we can debate all day why (even though we know it’s because of several law suits they lost and I’ve personally seen the explanation been given to you many many times but it never seems to stick)

I know the feeling, as someone constantly reminding people that this is almost certainly not the real explaination, yet the meme remains.

My point was more the outcome than the reason why but go on I’ll bite, why do you believe they’re doing it?

 

It's a sales/marketing thing. Rules exist, first and foremost, to sell models. If a model isn't on the shelf, why would you put it in the rules? GW's business model relies primarily on new players, and telling new players "well, that particular weapons combination doesn't have a model, but you can cut up you expensive new miniature and maybe put it together from parts from a different miniature..." isn't a great way to bring them into the hobby. You want a player to be able to see a Datasheet, say "I want that," and give them the ability to make that transaction as quickly and easily as possible. "New GW" is as much about creating a smooth sales funnel as it is about audience communication.

 

From a legal standpoint, GW has all their model options locked up just fine. One of the big copyright rulings that apparently* came down from the Chapterhouse brouhaha is that just publishing rules or artwork for a concept isn't enough to secure ownership of it in a different medium (ie. models), which is where I think the perception that this was a copyright-based decision comes from, but it actually doesn't apply to GW very often. What it does mean is that you won't see another Tervigon situation, where a new unit entry goes years without a corresponding model, but GW's made Space Marine and Meltagun miniatures forever. They own those, and can combine them in any way they like within a Codex without any worries about a fly-by-night operation beating them to the punch on a miniature.

 

Now, the timing of things suggests that, post-Chapterhouse, GW took a real hard look at not only plugging any holes that particular case brought to light, but their entire strategy in how rules relate to models, and the current situation probably came from there. So I suppose one could technically say this was "because" of the lawsuit, but not in the way that phrase is commonly understood.

 

* plz note that I've got no legal education and haven't read through the rulings and other goings-on from within the Chapterhouse case, but this is what I understand from legal types who have done a thorough reading of the material

[Dark Shepherd]

As roadmapping has come up a bit its interesting that in the past couple of days weve had roadmaps for Necromunda and Underworlds. So theyve clearly decided theyre the way to go for specialist games

[WARMASTER_]

It's a sales/marketing thing. Rules exist, first and foremost, to sell models. If a model isn't on the shelf, why would you put it in the rules? GW's business model relies primarily on new players, and telling new players "well, that particular weapons combination doesn't have a model, but you can cut up you expensive new miniature and maybe put it together from parts from a different miniature..." isn't a great way to bring them into the hobby. You want a player to be able to see a Datasheet, say "I want that," and give them the ability to make that transaction as quickly and easily as possible. "New GW" is as much about creating a smooth sales funnel as it is about audience communication.

 

From a legal standpoint, GW has all their model options locked up just fine. One of the big copyright rulings that apparently* came down from the Chapterhouse brouhaha is that just publishing rules or artwork for a concept isn't enough to secure ownership of it in a different medium (ie. models), which is where I think the perception that this was a copyright-based decision comes from, but it actually doesn't apply to GW very often. What it does mean is that you won't see another Tervigon situation, where a new unit entry goes years without a corresponding model, but GW's made Space Marine and Meltagun miniatures forever. They own those, and can combine them in any way they like within a Codex without any worries about a fly-by-night operation beating them to the punch on a miniature.

 

Now, the timing of things suggests that, post-Chapterhouse, GW took a real hard look at not only plugging any holes that particular case brought to light, but their entire strategy in how rules relate to models, and the current situation probably came from there. So I suppose one could technically say this was "because" of the lawsuit, but not in the way that phrase is commonly understood.

 

* plz note that I've got no legal education and haven't read through the rulings and other goings-on from within the Chapterhouse case, but this is what I understand from legal types who have done a thorough reading of the material

Where as I believe you’re right on the ease of selling kits to new players with the rules just in the box and GW has definitely stream lined this recently. It’s not a coincidence that when they released the Primaris upgrades that we saw them added to Codex as options which isn’t really stream lined as you now have to tell that same new player “oh sorry those weapons aren’t in the box, they’re in this additional upgrade box you also have to buy even though they’re in the rules”

 

unfortunately it does come back to the lawsuit, if you read over the notes one of the big sticking points you can take away from it is that GW didn’t have a claim to thunderwolf models even though they currently made a Cannis Wolf born...on a fething thunderwolf!! The IP protection was specifically for “Cannis wolfborn on thunderwolf” not thunderwolves hence why it when to court. And they had to hold off on release. IP is case specific

 

so in other words even though GW make enough part to equip your primaris captain with a thunder hammer and storm shield until the make the physical model as one they can’t protect the IP and can be challenged if someone else makes it first, that’s why we see restrictive data sheets, weirdly changed names that are copyrightable etc

 

GW own “Primaris captains with relic shield and power sword” because they physically make as one, where as Primaris captain with thunder hammer even though they have separately the parts for both they wouldn’t... it’s dumb but that’s the US system I guess

 

GW hired an IP advisor full time during the lawsuit and their practices haven't changed every since

 

So while maybe it’s not all chalked up to the lawsuit 100% and its actually for some round about way of ease of selling to new players (even though that falls short for reasons like the upgrade packs) its definitely when they started this practice and haven’t stopped since so it’s highly likely it was the main driving force

[Bryan Blaire]

GW does make a Primaris HQ with Thunderhammer - they already have it as a model. It's Adrax Agatone. GW also makes a Primaris HQ with a Lightning Claw. It's Kayvaan Shrike.

 

Anyone can challenge GW's right to IP protections on those items at any time, because that's how the legal system works. It will also likely get tossed on merit after the judge reviews it on the docket, because you would lose any challenge brought against GW/GW would win any challenge based on "parts" in those instances.

 

BladesofVengeance, you are misinterpreting the Thunderwolf ruling to apply incorrectly. They "lost" the Thunderwolf issue (all they lost was exclusive ownership, they didn't lose the ability to produce them, they simply couldn't say that others couldn't) because they didn't produce a Thunderwolf model separate from other items/in the way GW was claiming it was protected - the ruling established that you can't just write that something exists and get it protected in all forms, you have to actually produce it in the form you want it protected in. The ruling also determined that the concept of a massive wolf wasn't unique enough to base a claim on, and IIRC, the simple name combination of Thunder + Wolf isn't unique enough to cover them from other people being able to use the name. It would be like D&D trying to claim Dire Wolf because they have a specific type of wolf - it's not protected because of several factors, one of which is the name (both because it isn't unique, and because it's the name of an actual extinct species).

 

So GW does actually have the ability to have a Primaris hero with a Thunder Hammer (which probably isn't IP protectable in its own right anyway - there is a historical precedent for a "Thunder Hammer" in myth). Their models of those items is likely even protected, as it currently exists, meaning that you can't copy the specifically made models and sell them as your own, but it could (likely) be deemed not trademarkable due to a lack of uniqueness.

 

Lexington is much more likely to be right on this - GW doesn't want people to have to buy additional kits to make things in the rules that aren't included in the initial purchase, as I alluded to before, this provides a set of feel-bads and price gouging material.

 

Yes, the lawsuit was a driving factor, as was their IP advisor, because GW finally began to have a more full understanding of what was actually IP protected and what wasn't, including their own sales products. While GW had some good understanding before the suit, my understanding of that was that as a concept, GW's understanding was mostly in relation to how the British court system works with regard to IP protections, not how the US system works, and IP challenges have to be heard in the legal jurisdiction where the challenges occur (in the Chapterhouse case, the U.S., because that's where the alleged - and now partially determined - infringement occurred). Hence it was determined that there were things that Chapterhouse was allowed to do because GW's claims weren't unique or couldn't be substantiated due to a lack of actual production of material- therefore these couldn't be protected through IP law, while the case also upheld other claims GW made due to these same items.

[WARMASTER_]

The thunder hammer was just an example Bryan replace thunder hammer with power maul it doesn’t matter it was an example to the point that they have to produce the actual kit in question rather than Separate parts like with the thunder wolves and cannis

 

That argument on “feel bands” falls down with the ever produced upgrade kits though and how they only join official rules once released, and explaining to a new player, oh you want the chainsword on the data sheet you need to buy this

 

Also to your point of model production and IP protection you’re agreeing with my point rather than rejecting it, GW wants sole production rights why do you think as I mentioned we’ve started seeing the names changed from “space marine” to “Adeptus Astartes” or “primaris” they’re protectable names all the generic names have gone

 

And again you’re agreeing to my point when people say it’s because of the law suit, it is...

 

I can’t see how anyone feel otherwise, we literally saw a massive change of practices which included wargear restrictions directly after the lawsuit saying it’s not the cause is naive

Edited November 27, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Bryan Blaire]

I think you are still misunderstanding the actual nature of the Thunderwolf situation - there's a nuance there that isn't being picked up, but I honestly don't think it really matters to folks, because they keep misunderstanding it - you just indicated it again, even though I explained it as best my layman's understanding from my attorney friend can.

 

The issue with the Thunderwolves is multi-fold, and has nothing to do with "parts". Let me try again.

 

GW didn't "lose" Thunderwolves as an exclusively protected and reserved to them item because of their inclusion as a separate component - they lost them because they only produced one model with a Thunderwolf in it that had a very specific name AND because the concept of the Thunderwolf, including the name, wasn't unique enough to qualify for protection.

 

It has nothing to do with "produce a Thunderwolf only as a part" - except that GW wanted protections for the Thunderwolves as a whole exclusive of anything else. They didn't produce Thunderwolves at all except in the Canis kit. Thunderwolves never would have qualified for protection in the first place regardless of GW's claim, it wouldn't matter who had produced them, again, because the concept of the Thunderwolf, including the name, wasn't unique enough to qualify for protection. Just like you can't claim IP protection over "dire wolf".

 

They don't have to protect Thunder Hammers (or any other components they manufacture already) from being able to produced separately like they tried to do for the Thunderwolves, because they already produce them separately in multiple kits. They also don't have to protect Primaris HQs because they already produce them.

 

The combination doesn't have to be exclusive to be protected, because the models already exist.

 

You have the nature of the claim backwards.

 

The suit also did not award Thunderwolves exclusively to Chapterhouse - because they can't be exclusively claimed by anyone. What the suit ruling said was "GW, you don't exclusively hold rights to Thunder Wolves. Neither does Chapterhouse. Therefore you both can produce them, and so can anyone else." It would have held similarly for "Thunder Bears" or "Dire Cats" or any other generic "great beast".

 

What the ruling did uphold is that GW's unique depictions can't be copied, marketed, and sold as if produced by someone else, as copyright comes into play there - GW has unique protection for their specific depiction that is produced (copyright as a protection covers the medium produced the work is produced in, whether that's written, painted, video, audio recording, etc.).

 

That is a very different situation from "Can't make a Primaris HQ option with a Thunder Hammer because they don't make a kit." The option being in the kit is irrelevant to its protection because both components are already inherently protected in their produced form.

 

Someone couldn't come in and prevent GW from making a Primaris HQ with Thunder Hammer model either, because they already do.

 

GW already makes all materials necessary to provide them IP or copyright protection on the materials in question.

 

And if you think the "feels bad" argument falls flat due to the upgrade kits, then why did they not add those same options to the Primaris Captain when he has a replaceable arm (hand even), just like the Intercessor Sergeants do? The "Intercessor Sergeant with Thunder Hammer" option wouldn't have any IP protection in that situation, therefore they wouldn't have produced the upgrade kit, if it worked like you are asserting.

 

There's very likely a combination of reasons for why they haven't done it, but using the "because it isn't a unique model" wouldn't apply to any of the models that got the options added after the upgrade kits either. It's a misattribution of reason in that instance to say it is, or a misapplication/misunderstanding by GW of the ruling (which I very much believe they won't have now given the extensive nature of it and their actions in response). Marketing, limiting feels-bads, not presenting a need for third-party produced options, these are all much more likely factors than "they want it IP protected", because it already would be. It is very unlikely the lawsuit is the major reason those options don't exist - at best it's a tertiary thought on it.

[Lexington]

That argument on “feel bands” falls down with the ever produced upgrade kits though and how they only join official rules once released, and explaining to a new player, oh you want the chainsword on the data sheet you need to buy this

 

Eh, I don't think the two really work the same way. GW's happy to tack on cost after cost after cost to be able to completely field an army (as anyone who wants a complete set of army rules these days knows all too well), but they never want to require a player go full DIY in order to get there. An upgrade it? Sure, they'll happily make a customer jump through that hoop. An upgrade kit, tho, is used as directed. You can buy it, glue a Power Fist to your Intercessor Sgt., paint it according to the conveniently available painting guide, and you've got the product you saw on the box. In any case, GW is providing the full experience for you. You never have to stray from the track. This is a surprisingly big deal in customer psychology - there's a lot of comfort in being able to get from Point A to Point B to Point Z, and knowing that you've done it "right".

 

Making a customer saw a weapon off of some other model, then decide if it looks "right", then do something like pinning to make it stay properly is a very different experience, even if it doesn't seem like it to an experience hobbyist. The act is messier, the sell is harder, and it cuts GW's official guidance out of the process. This might sound nefarious, but it's really not. It's the same reason IKEA provides all the tools and instructions to make whatever delightfully modern furniture piece you've just purchased. Like GW's product, you can hack their stuff together if you want - I'm typing this message on a desk made out of an IKEA coffee tabletop clamped to a bookshelf on one end, with some DIY legs holding it up on the other - but you don't have to. That's the model GW's going after.

[WARMASTER_]

No I’m quite clear on the thunderwolf issue really again as I previously stated the generic name of Thunderwolves isn’t copyrightable which is why we saw GW change their policy after towards protectable names “Primaris” this isn’t news not me or part of a nuance I’m not seeing

 

Chapter houses claims were ideas and processes are not copyrightable, only specific expressions of facts and ideas. If someone writes down a description of a model, they have a copyright on what they just wrote not on the model described in said description. which is why the Tyranid Mycetic Spore went away completely as it was model less and Chapter house made a model based on the description before GW did, so copyright was theirs as in this instance it’s whoever made the model first had it.

 

Where as with the Thunderwolves they couldn’t get exclusive rights as GW had a prior model and artwork depictions said wolves plus the term with said to be too generic (which again I’ve already stated)

 

GW still cant own a copyright on something that they have never depicted (art work or description) or made themselves, so no model no rules still applies to my prior point

 

I understand the ruling just fine

 

The feel bad argument doesn’t fall flat at all the thunder hammer upgrade kit is completely incompatible with the primaris captain? He has a specific hand to arm piece where as the thunder hammer is a full arm piece made specifically for the Intercessor kit, the primaris captain would need a specific upgrade kit to match its specific hand alignment so it couldn’t be added to his data sheet

 

The reason me an lexington got into a debate wasn’t above though, for me it was the root cause of the lack of customisation without applicable model or parts for the model and saying the cause of the change isn’t the law suit is naive in my opinion it’s literally when we saw the change in a company that’s been operating fir decades it’s clearly the major factor surly we can agree in that??

[WARMASTER_]

Lexington to your original point how isn’t making somebody new buy something additional just to have the option that’s in the rules not a feel bad?? I agree totally GW are happy doing it bit wasn’t your reasoning

 

If I’m a brand new player and the rules say I can have a Chainsword that the box doesn’t have and the GW guy says well actually if you want those options you can now buy all of these separate upgrade kits if you want them it’s a fell bad surely?

 

I know this has now been fixed with the assault intercessors and I’m honestly relieved myself

[Bryan Blaire]

Okay, what you said Chapterhouse's "claims" were is actually how the law is written - ideas and processes aren't protected under copyright (they can be protected under Trademark or Patent though). :lol: That's not a claim, that's a legal fact and standard. That's the part that GW apparently didn't fully understand before.

 

The feels-bad argument is the fact that they couldn't point to any kit, etc. You would have to fully customize (saw) a hand connection or arm connection to get the option to work (or modify Adrax Agatone) - that's exactly the point of the argument. The "feels-bad" of not having a kit for something, not having something directly saleable, or the feels-bad of needing yet a purchase after the fact that you didn't know you need (which is less, and GW probably ignores, because it feeds their sales), and the direct styling of third-party markets by not having all available options that they don't already directly make the parts for, those are the whole argument against why they don't put the options in.

 

That's my point.

 

All the stuff they already need to have to put the options in from a legal standpoint are already afforded protection - GW doesn't put them in not because they aren't afforded said legal protection, but because they don't have an easy way to monitize the option already...

 

Yes, the law suit and the "how can we prevent third party bits use now?" are closely tied, because previous to Chapterhouse, a lot of bits makers either just ignored GW or would comply with Cease and Desist, and GW either didn't think enough of them or they didn't make waves that GW really thought they'd have to fight - now GW knows better, both that they can't control everything around their game and that they aren't invincible, other producers have rights also. So they are trying to find other ways to limit third party markets - not having options they can't just point a kit at is one of those ways. Sadly that also limits conversions.

 

So while the lawsuit was the catalyst, it's not necessarily "the reason."

[WARMASTER_]

While I’m not replying to most of your points as I think we both disagree on why the issue has happened Bryan but I do feel we’re both of the same mind that it’s a shame? we could probably go round in circles until we’re blue in the face because we definitely have differing views and I’d say both well informed options from our respective view points

 

like in our previous debates I’m happy that even at the cost of some flexibility (imo also from the lawsuit but we’re splitting hairs now) knowing quality is improving massively, coupled with the fact I still have quite a few options on wargear, I tend not to dwell or try to gripe to much about it as the situation is getting way better especially in the last few months

 

The best we can probably do is agree to disagree?

Edited November 27, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Bryan Blaire]

Yeah - it's just a shame they didn't remove all the swords, and left only hammers and claws. I'm sure people would feel pretty differently then - it would probably even be close to a mass uprising against GW. :lol: I probably wouldn't be standing in a wind-driven urine storm that I've contributed to if so. ;)

 

It's amusing to me that the Tome Bearers Captain of the 3rd does have a non-rules available armament, and it has Matched Play points, so there's definitely some official precedent now on the armament, but yeah, it'd be nice to get the options back for all factions. I'm sure there's some cool DG HQs you could make with options as well as many others.

 

On the law suit front, I don't think there's much else to say about it anyway. The ruling was the ruling. It defined some lines for GW, told them what was legitimately their's and what they couldn't claim, and which situations applied to these things. Their response was definitely informed by what they learned third party producers are within their rights to do - that caused them to change their business. They also definitely want to streamline and focus their sales and marketing - Lexington did better job than me trying to explain why that has looked like. They also definitely want to limit 3rd party sales and use of material with their models, and have pretty clear lines what they can't stop, so they have had their adjustments to that as well.

 

It's just a shame that this was the direction they took their business, they definitely could have done differently. But then again, I'm definitely not the only person they have to please, and yes, I agree that there has been great improvements in their models over the last 10 years or so - it's too bad they haven't been able to produce more and that their designers apparently don't want to revisit too much old material for factions in the game. I'm happy with some things, not with others, there's very much a hobby mixed bag for me now, but at least I can ignore or work around most of the things that I find myself at odds with.

 

This'll be my final comment on this matter, others can continue if they want.

[tychobi]

Is it safe to say GW is protecting its IP in a way that makes that IP less appealing?