GW and their recent approaches

[MegaVolt87]

 

My big complaint is the lack of respect for the customer who likes to know what the rues are. The sheer weight of volumes needed to know what is going on is daunting. The app promised to bring it all together but predatory pricing and poor implementation make it extremely unappealing.

 

This is one of my biggest complaints of late, too. Despite the attempt to make the App a big deal, it's still beholden to artificial dead tree divisions in the product. which really devalues it. The rules for factions are spread across so many different books, it makes the 40K App a very unappealing experience. If I buy the rules for Orks, I want all the rules for Orks, not some of them, with the rest being in separate, $50 expansions that need to be bought in order to get a few Stratagems and Relics. With paper rules, at least you have the excuse of needing a full published product. Tying the App to that just makes it feel an entirely secondary experience to printed rules, which isn't helped by the fact that it's maybe the worst general phone app I've ever seen anyone ask money for. That they want five bucks a month for it - a ludicrously high price by app standards, not to mention within a market space where these sorts of things are regularly provided free - is truly amazing, and I hope the way it's been so widely panned and ignored by the community is teaching GW a thing or two.

 

 

I think the players and market will adjust to this in time. Expect to see more "second hand" codexes instead of new, sites where you buy a codex key from a re-seller. You sit in a chat live, use pay pal to buy the key then redeem it on the spot. When I say "second hand" its brand new minus the code. Say this was happening in OZ, the second hand physical book would be AUD$50-64, if the code has already been sold for AUD$20-$30. At those prices compared to RRP its easy for secondary markets/ third parties to leverage this move to digital.

 

Codexes currently have no value IMO. They recycle art and lore, they have no army focus or hobby/ conversion guides like they used to (although that is coming into crusade books again). If every different codex every edition had 100% new art, lore, army focus, hobby/conversion guides their desirability, value and collectability would rise immeasurably.  Either the codexes/ rules increase their content + physical quality while maintaining the current prices/ price increases, reduce prices at current quality or move to 100% digital, because the current standards of the physical books are so far behind the times its a bad comedy. Its no wonder more people are embracing digital copies of 40k content- however you define it. 

[Lexington]

I think the players and market will adjust to this in time. Expect to see more "second hand" codexes instead of new, sites where you buy a codex key from a re-seller. 

 

Honestly, I don't think enough players value the app for these sorts of wide-scale adjustments to take place. The 40K App is just irrelevant to their customer base right now, and I don't see that changing without a massive overhaul.

[WrathOfTheLion]

For recent kits and customization, I do want to make note of missing dumb obvious stuff.

 

For the Lazarus/Dark Angels Master kit, they went out of their way to make it so you couldn't just have a winged helmet. This was incredibly obvious that it would be a thing the customer would want to do.

 

There's other cases of modeling decisions like this.

[chapter master 454]

For recent kits and customization, I do want to make note of missing dumb obvious stuff.

 

For the Lazarus/Dark Angels Master kit, they went out of their way to make it so you couldn't just have a winged helmet. This was incredibly obvious that it would be a thing the customer would want to do.

 

There's other cases of modeling decisions like this.

 

Not going to lie, went and checked the kit online...and you are right...that is straight up stupid decision making. I would almost say that your interrogator chaplains need to get some confessions rolling for that.

This is what I am not a fan of, the fact that GW are starting to dictate how you have the models set-up. Almost like Nintendo; you will enjoy OUR game as WE intend it. Stop trying to be a loving community and just being good wallet whales for us to harpoon! We just want customisation, we want to make cool things but GW, you don't let us. While you may own the ball, no-one can play football without friends and teams, after all; you bring the ball but it isn't you who decides what game we play because end of the day you may be able to take the ball and go home, we also can just not come and play ball with you.

 

It is a harmful and ultimately fatal course to take for any company to disregard its player base. Only the truly titanic and monolithic souless ones can afford such luxury (and no, not talking necrons, you know who I am talking about!) but the standard company needs to respond to players, talk to players and listen to players. Players want to play how they want to play, so it comes off as so paradoxical that GW wants to push "play your way" when their kits keep saying "play OUR way".

[Bryan Blaire]

Perhaps next Community Survey go-round, if enough folks ask for the full standard Astartes template options list equivalent for all factions' HQs, GW'll feel enough "pressure" to make a change in the near future.

 

I'd love to think it could actually happen and GW would listen, but my guess is that it's actually other behind the scenes decisions that keeps something like this from happening.

[Evil Eye]

Speaking as a luddite who far prefers physical books over digital rules, I'd really rather they didn't switch over to full digital. Especially, as has been pointed out, given how bad the app is (which is a real shame as IMO the AOS app is pretty good). I appreciate it's not exactly easy to "patch" a book, but I don't have to worry about it running out of power or not having internet access.

 

In the cases of some factions I almost wish they'd dispense with individual Codices for every single sub-faction and instead make bigger, all-inclusive mega-Codices containing every faction that can be played alongside each other. So rather than Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, Chaos Knights, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and whatever other factions they throw in the mix, just releasing one big "Codex: Forces of Chaos". The overall number of books needed to play is reduced and supplements/expansions/errata become that much easier to apply. Obviously some "factions" (Imperium, Chaos) will be huge compared to others (Necrons, Tau) but I personally think it would be far easier to deal with, and would make combined forces that much more doable.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Wasn't trying to amplify the point of customization, the kit actually has a good bit of that.

 

The point is that they are clearly missing things their intended customers desire, missing the forest for the trees. It has options, but it's missing the clearly obvious one everyone wants.

 

Every single DA player immediately thought 'can I stick the helmet on' when they saw the kit. Every single one. How did that not get flagged in production?

Edited November 25, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[TJ_Paints_And_Games]

I'm not going to repeat any of the bloat/books/gameplay topics talked about here already, as there is no need from more. I will however say something about painting.

 

• The painting app - Its an incredible resource, but now has not been updated in 12 months.
  
  It would also serve better to actually show the stages of the models in question, rather than a space marine backpack which doesn't always match correctly. Probably a bit late now for models already in the app, but new ones? 
   
• The Citadel Colour website - Again, from what I can tell it hasn't been updated much, since the Sisters box set, again nearly 12 months ago? All it is really is a seperate host for the YouTube video (and not even direct links, actually separately hosting the videos, WHY?????)
  
  This is frustrating as the boxes now all point to this website. But you can't find any info on how to paint your shiny new Lokhust Heavy Destroyer? Not good.
   
• Box/book/painting app colour recipes - Mentioned a while back in this thread, but it is clear the 3 or 4 colour recipe is not correct in a lot of cases.
   
• Inconsistency on the level of support models get for painting videos - Yes I know, Covid, and if there are already videos in the back catalogue.
  
  However, they should also make sure to cover the complicated or unusual elements. Example: Indomitus/Szerakhan Necrons got 2 long videos to paint them in the new scheme, Great! The Silent King, Monolith, and Void Dragon all have unusual colours however. These are VERY expensive models and it can be incredibly disappointing/off putting to 'have a go' and ruin it, particularly with those not capable of stripping the paint back off.

I think what I'm saying is for painters, and newbies, support in the hobby can be inconsistent and lacking. Other content creators are a great gap filler, and I'm very thankful for them. The Twitch streams are good, but not everyone has time to watch every one of them every week for an 3/4 of a year. Plus lets be honest, and I mean this in all types of online content creator to fan/viewer relationships, its generally the same featured or engaged people, thats just the way it is, so its difficult to get a response if you are stuck.

This year will have been difficult for newbies , not being able to get to GW stores or FLGS etc etc will make it difficult for them to get into the hobby. The same applies for people teetering on the edge of potentially joining, or leaving the Games Workshop hobby, so I am surprised that the app and website haven't been updated. 

Yes I know part of the fun sometimes is that you can go ahead and try it out yourself, but the store/FLGS is a vital component in the hobby engagement process. 2019/2020 was the period in time to sort all that out. 

IMO, I think they've missed the mark.

[WARMASTER_]

Not going to lie, went and checked the kit online...and you are right...that is straight up stupid decision making. I would almost say that your interrogator chaplains need to get some confessions rolling for that.

This is what I am not a fan of, the fact that GW are starting to dictate how you have the models set-up. Almost like Nintendo; you will enjoy OUR game as WE intend it. Stop trying to be a loving community and just being good wallet whales for us to harpoon! We just want customisation, we want to make cool things but GW, you don't let us. While you may own the ball, no-one can play football without friends and teams, after all; you bring the ball but it isn't you who decides what game we play because end of the day you may be able to take the ball and go home, we also can just not come and play ball with you.

 

It is a harmful and ultimately fatal course to take for any company to disregard its player base. Only the truly titanic and monolithic souless ones can afford such luxury (and no, not talking necrons, you know who I am talking about!) but the standard company needs to respond to players, talk to players and listen to players. Players want to play how they want to play, so it comes off as so paradoxical that GW wants to push "play your way" when their kits keep saying "play OUR way".

I don’t know man I hear this a LOT from the same 10/15 fratters and it’s clearly a huge sticking point for you guys but really the game isn’t going to die because you cant take a axe of on captain is it??

 

There’s a echo camber effect on these threads and everything becomes doom and gloom, people aren’t suddenly “whales” because your issue isn’t one for them..

 

Were we quite restricted on only new sculpts when primaris were first released, yes definitely! Are we now? Not really what are we missing a few weapon option? With more models coming out all the time

 

I just don’t think it’s as big an issue as people make on these threads to the vast majority of people it’s whatever but it it’s always the same voices decrying it. Coupled with the fact the game is bigger than ever so GW are clearly making the right decisions somewhere with regards to model quality over customisation, have there been slips ups and mistakes obviously is it getting better every couple of months options wise also definitely

Edited November 25, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[chapter master 454]

Blade, I am fully aware of echo chambering, especially on this forum. It happens a lot and skews perspective and that is something I always get concerned about, sort of the skinner meme really. "Am I wrong? Am I the one who needs to get with the times?" but instead of it being a straight obvious answer you have to stop and think...analyse and understand why you feel the way you do.

 

Do I feel irked? Yes. The kits are great, I won't deny it. I think they look great but why were they needed to be made in such obviously awkward manners? Why not stick with the "legs, torso halves, 1 arm with holding hand, 1 arm with gun, head and backpack" approach, it wouldn't reduce the poses they have.

 

But I do concede that this isn't a great sample grouping for any real decisions, this thread as I have stated before is for people to constructively vent out some notions that I was seeing pop up in other threads so decided that this may be a good health check for some fraters. I feel it has been and I will say it has surprised me this thread lasted now 15 pages...fraters were in need of a good vent and in a constructive manner, some bumps happened but those do happen and the mods did a wonderful job moderating this thread.

[WARMASTER_]

No I agree with you on the core principle really! I myself am I BIG converter always have been and it’s getting harder no doubt! but then I look at the old marines and the quality of the new ones and I’m content with converting up baseline models to Commanders with the freedom of arms And poses I can achieve, because while the results are different, I still believe we’re going in the right way model wise as they do generally look way better than before... if slightly more restrictive

 

I also often think myself surly we could have just had a free arm here to convert?? But then I’m not a model designer so I guess it’s just my option?

 

I do think the torsos attached to legs though is much better you wouldn’t believe how many models I’ve seen it the weirdest back breaking angles so posed legs/torsos with arm options is definitely better I believe, although again we loose some freedom

 

Personally I hate ETB kits but I also realise there’s not aimed at me and they’re probably aimed at the younger kids getting into the game (I’ve still got scars from with I was 9 making Errant Knight kits haha) so I get the no glue thing but it’s still something that annoys me when that’s all that’s on offer.

 

so I agree with many points you’re saying but I also feel on these threads people can get sucked into very negative thinking and that to definitely sque perspectives one way instead of a healthy discussion

 

Edit Spelling (I should type while having a convo)

Edited November 25, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s no reason you can’t use an axe for the model and say it’s got the rules for master crafted power sword.

[Bryan Blaire]

There's no reason to say you can't use the model for a Biovore and say its got the rules of a Shard of the Void Dragon... except that people do. Officially, it doesn't matter how big or small the difference is, one thing is not the other. Unofficially, we can do whatever the hell we want.

 

Unfortunately there are definitely plenty of people (I run into them at two of the three FLGSs all the time) that only want to play by the official stuff.

[WARMASTER_]

While I don’t want this to devolve into an argument as me and Bryan tend to have very different hobby views,that wasn’t my point. (although swapping an axe to a sword is definitely different to using a different model entirely, I mean how many friendly games have you actually played when someone says “that power sword is actually a Chainsword sorry” or some such like and it’s never really an issue is it?? as long as it’s discussed before hand and if it is an issue you’re being “that guy”)

 

My point was because of loud vocal minorities the issue is made to look disproportionate to the actual issue, we’re not actually missing very many options on primaris now really and it’s getting better all the time,

 

To most players they look at the current models on sale, buy them and are happy to play with the options on the model, as there’s now literally LOADS of brilliant plastic HQ models and they couldn’t care less if the model can’t let’s say have an axe or a combo plasma

 

Or in my case I convert an intercessor model into HQ with the 7 load out options available (well actually 9 for me because I play DA) or 2 options of Gravis or Phobos orrrr the 7 possible Lieutenant load out options (9 for DA)

 

My point was yes to begin with it was very restrictive but now not so much there loads of great models and combos and while people are still griping just as hard I believe the current situation has improved leaps and bounds

[Bryan Blaire]

I've played an entire game where a Necron army was represented by a single unit of Necron Warriors, a bunch of Orks of various load-outs, and the aforementioned Biovore standing in for a Nightbringer. It was a fun game.

 

I'm not sure why "having a fun game" means anything to "calling for the complete suite of options that Marines have always enjoyed to be officially added" and how that can be considered a bad thing by anyone - other than the arguments of "it's good enough for me" or "you have enough options". I have yet to see an argument as to why adding some more options to say HQs that SGTs and LTs can get would be a big deal.

 

People will gripe about things that they feel are important.

 

My question to those of you who are engaging in this discussion that are opposed to the things is "Why does it matter to you if people gripe or want things to be different?" If you are happy and don't think it's an issue, then do you really have a reason to argue? Go play a game you are happy with, paint models you are happy with, etc. It won't change my frustration that my current conversion work on a Primaris Wolf Lord will remain officially playable as a standard template Wolf Lord until GW changes things, and I will continue to call for those changes.

 

----------------

 

Let me ask it another way - "What's important to you about GW not spending the 15 minutes to an hour or so it might take to update the Primaris Captain and Lieutenant, and expand the Intercessor Sergeant, options list to a Wargear list that contains all the standard veteran Astartes gear? Why is it important that not happen?"

 

"Why is it important to you that Legends options remain in a separate, optional document, rather than being contained in the Codex? Why do you view it as it important that those things not be incorporated/reincorporated into the Codex?"

 

There's got to be a reason folks would argue for "no more official options," so let's hear them.

 

How about books - "Why is it important to you that the current book production model remain as it - don't change it, it's fine. Why is it fine?"

 

-------------

 

Let's have a serious discussion on it - but don't just trot out "Well, it's not the way GW has it" or one of the company's already tired and heard lines - those don't help anything and wreak of not articulating a point yourself, for whatever reason.

[The Yncarne]

Speaking of model options, I have no concerns with the trend towards limiting options, especially on character models. On the other hand, some multipart models that can only be built into a single option such as the Death Jester or AoS Necromancer model are a right pain for me to correctly assemble.

[Bryan Blaire]

Speaking of model options, I have no concerns with the trend towards limiting options, especially on character models. On the other hand, some multipart models that can only be built into a single option such as the Death Jester or AoS Necromancer model are a right pain for me to correctly assemble.

Is there a reason why you have no concerns with it, Blood Raven, beyond you just aren't interested in them?

 

Do you feel like there would be some kind of negative to the game by having additional options? Is there something lost overall in the game (or even in fluff) to Autarchs officially having more access to Exarch equipment, Primaris Captains officially having the full suite of Marine veteran weapon options, standard Chaplains officially having a Astartes bike, or other options I can't pull out of my head now?

 

-----------

 

Negatives I've seen put forward:

- Cost for kits may go up - how much, we don't know, that part has been very speculative

- Time burden on GW - how much, we don't know

- Possibly an extra book to carry around - GW has clearly indicated (with the continuing campaign rules having faction rules in them again) they don't care and would do it to us anyway, so I don't think that's much of a point (but I'd love for that to go away too)

- Might somehow damage GW's IP protection to have options they don't have in a specific kit

[WARMASTER_]

On the serious side of the discussion Bryan the facts now remain that GW will not give you rules in a codex for model options they don’t produce, we can debate all day why (even though we know it’s because of several law suits they lost and I’ve personally seen the explanation been given to you many many times but it never seems to stick)

 

And we also know that rightly GW has made the decision to drastically increase detail and the quality of a miniature at the expense of some flexibility and options so until GW has made all the options available on a miniature, which I’m sure they will at some point, your issue isn’t going to change

 

But my point again was as this is clearly a very negative point for you I’d wager you’re not seeing clearly that for most people it’s really not an issue loosing some flexibility and the expense of quality

 

I myself would prefer a few more options..who wouldn’t? But with the increase in quality of the minis we now get to collect, Paint and game with I’ll take the hit

[Bryan Blaire]

No, I see very clearly that it isn't an issue for most (so why would you discuss a non-issue, but it's up to each of us to evaluate the use of our time). I also get that it's a non-issue/lack of giving a :cuss by GW, but that particular situation won't stop me griping about it, because I already give them plenty of money for me to do conversions on models with.

 

I'm not sure why it being a non-issue for others means it would need to be something I stop discussing - if others don't want to discuss it, that's fine, no one is trapped in here with me. :lol: It would be nice if the level of discourse was up to what you have been posting, BladeOfVengeance, if people do at least want to discuss it, but some folks clearly don't value that. Seriously, there's been a lot of discourse on a non-issue, so either there is an issue to discuss, or people just want me to stop discussing it - in which case they should walk away, because I won't if they still seem interested in discussing (in this instance, I've got to interpret interest as "bringing the 'non-issue' up in a post).

 

I fully expect that any expanded options GW offered would already have the quality (for instance, the axe I'm using is being built from Gotrek and Adrax parts, so they are already sweet quality bits produced as well as any that have been produced since probably 2014 or so) we're used to in new offers, so I don't think anyone would expect a loss in quality from something like a "extra veterans weapons sprue".

[Evil Eye]

To be honest I would absolutely be down for more options for character wargear. I'd personally suggest them bringing out more sculpts for the same unit with different options (like the old days, but with plastic instead of metal/resin), though I suppose that would be expensive to produce for models not a huge amount of people will buy. Plastic molding is expensive after all.

 

As has been mentioned before, something like the AOS hero builder (Anvil of Apotheosis was it?) would be fantastic as a simple way of working in "your dudes" heroes. Not even like it has to be narrative only; the points value assignment for it is a piece of cake to use, the result being that you can basically make any hero you want for any game you want (within reason).

 

As far as the current rules go and working around those without resorting to homebrew, I think minor stuff like "Yeah, that power maul counts as the stock sword" is eminently acceptable as a compromise, especially if you're of the mindset that power weapons (with exceptions such as fists) should be generic anyway. As long as it's clear what he's actually armed with and there's no advantage-modelling going on I think it's a reasonable solution anyway.

[Bryan Blaire]

Evil Eye, I can't give you any Likes, as I'm already out, but it's appreciated. The only thing I'll say is that for some of the sticklers I've encountered, it will be easier to just accept playing against them with my Lords and Battle Leaders who are made with options not valid on Primaris as non-Primaris. Yes, it may be unreasonable, but GW has differentiated the weapons for this Edition, so it's what I've accepted as a path of least resistance in the "only official" argument.

 

I guess the flip side of that particular stance is that there shouldn't be any issue with playing a standard Astartes Chaplain on Bike as a Primaris version, right? :lol: Sadly, no.

[WARMASTER_]

No, I see very clearly that it isn't an issue for most (so why would you discuss a non-issue, but it's up to each of us to evaluate the use of our time). I also get that it's a non-issue/lack of giving a :cuss by GW, but that particular situation won't stop me griping about it, because I already give them plenty of money for me to do conversions on models with.

 

I'm not sure why it being a non-issue for others means it would need to be something I stop discussing - if others don't want to discuss it, that's fine, no one is trapped in here with me. :lol: It would be nice if the level of discourse was up to what you have been posting, BladeOfVengeance, if people do at least want to discuss it, but some folks clearly don't value that - in which case, they've got no reason to respond other than padding their post count with one liners (sadly, even on Ignore, you still see that people have posted). Seriously, there's been a lot of discourse on a non-issue, so either there is an issue to discuss, or people just want me to stop discussing it - in which case they should walk away, because I won't if they still seem interested in discussing (in this instance, I've got to interpret interest as "bringing the 'non-issue' up in a post).

 

I fully expect that any expanded options GW offered would already have the quality (for instance, the axe I'm using is being built from Gotrek and Adrax parts, so they are already sweet quality bits produced as well as any that have been produced since probably 2014 or so) we're used to in new offers, so I don't think anyone would expect a loss in quality from something like a "extra veterans weapons sprue".

I’m in no way calling it a non issue, I’m saying it seems to be a massive sticking point for some people but unfortunately until we can get new kits with other options we won’t see a change no matter how much griping we do. it’s definitely GW policy now, I’m all for getting a veterans box with loads of options who wouldn’t be?? I’d buy 50 boxes of primaris DA veterans with all the options and cloaks

 

But I also don’t believe it’s as simple as you’re boiling it down to be it’s not GW not giving a s**t nor do I believe it’s something they could fix in 30 minutes as unfortunately they do have to protect their copyright and their ability to make money from investing in the making of plastic minis (which is crazy expensive)

 

I think people get defensive on these issues because it’s either something we’ve come to terms with as a function of the game or we accept that’s the direction they had to go in for model improvements and for IP protect and honestly nothing we do will change it. but the silver lining is that it will also definitely improve as more kits are added to the range

 

Where as I also agree that the model quality was great in 2014 the kits they’re making now far outstrip them say the assault squad was released in I believe 2015 compare that to the assault intercessors from a purely model perspective they’re 10 times better and now also come with loads of options for the sergeant... so it’s definitely improving all round

Edited November 25, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Bryan Blaire]

My hope would be that if enough people really do want to see expanded options, then a call for an expanded options kit for various HQs might make its way into the Community Survey at a high enough rate to trigger a data review for them at least, which might make them go "Hmmmm" and maybe change things down the road. I fully admit that there will be zero change occur swiftly on the subject (and zero change at all on the topic of Legends), there won't be a Errata tomorrow giving out those weapon options to things like the Primaris Captains or even Autarchs (which very much had a removal of options they did have).

[The Yncarne]

@Bryan B: I don't begrudge people that want more options for models. I'd like more weapon options in squad boxes so for example, I could equip 4 las cannon devastators, but I accept that isn't possible at the moment.

 

For me, I'm just tired of juggling ever changing weapon stats in my head. It seems to slow the game down and increases list building paralysis for me. I didn't like it when power weapons got segmented. I don't care if it is an axe, club, sword, pole arm, staff etc I'd prefer a bit more streamlining at that level. I could keep weapon stats in my head 25-30 years ago but not so much now.

 

Again, my point was the difficulty assembling some models have proven for me. 

[MegaVolt87]

40k has always been about creativity, however I am sure GW now regret that past legacy by seemingly moving from it. I bet if GW had a time machine, they would do what warmahordes does with its named characters. So for example, there would be say, first captain Calgar, chaptermaster Calgar, primaris chaptermaster Calgar. Each would have diffrent equipment, rules and stats and only one named Calgar version could be taken in an army. There would be no generic DIY characters. The game would have still been able to evolve as "herohammer" etc. It would also open up new named character iterations such as pre black rage captain Tycho, old marine Tor Garadon etc. Sure it shrinks the univers somewhat, but we would have a much more robust and diverse set of named characters. Plus, there could always be a stream of releases for everyone so no one would be missing out. Also the young ones GW is after like the set named personalities and hero's if we look at vidya/ comics/ superhero revival and following their character arcs. If its one thing GW know how to do well its named character sculpts.