Bryan Blaire Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Won't touch the "same breath" comment then - I don't think that's what you actually meant. I get what you are saying - however, consider the flexibility you have model-wise when all you've got is a "fusion rifle" or a "power weapon". A power weapon could be defined as any Melee weapon with an energized field generator, and can be modeled as a sword, spear, axe, maul, bat, hammer, baton, scythe, helmet forehead, etc., and of any styling amongst myriad factions. A fusion rifle could be any weapon that utilizes a fusion shot of some kind, and could be modeled as a "melta gun", "plasma gun", "fusion six shooter", "fusion repeating slug shooter", or any number of xenos weapons that could potentially also be used among other factions (think of all the potential IG options from various forge worlds). Heck, you could potentially even do a "keyword" system for weapons, that way you could layer the "Daemon" rule on top of a "power weapon" and have a daemon sword, mace, or even a horn on a helmet represent it, and have simple rules interactions for it. I would think that considering their improved sprue packing, there's actually more room to do options for a model like a "Primaris Captain in Tacticus armor" than there was while they were pouring white metal. You don't need to make 30 models in plastic "just for options", you need to design a model for options and have them on the sprue - we already know they know this from things like Adeptus Titanicus, where they build in magnet holes, or the Venerable Dreadnought, where the gun arm was tight enough to almost hold all the options without even needing to use magnets. Then you've got the ability to swap weapons from other kits within the same faction, the way Marines used to do (shoulder or wrist - if you were really good, you could even design for elbow swapping, but that could get tricky), and like how you actually can with arms with the different Eldar factions (provided you want to do a little trimming/GreenStuff work). Transitioning to plastic is definitely not the issue, if you go into the design process knowing that you want to create the ability to have options, and it's even easier to do with 3D computer modeled stuff. Even the "dynamic pose" thing isn't an issue if you do it well, and with partial arms that have a wide enough space to accommodate multiple weapons without clipping into the model and requiring trimming/other solutions. Volt 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 But individuals within this thread have in previous discussions put forward the suggestion of completely standardizing weapons across the game (so "Basic assault gun" etc), which doesn't to me at least quite gel with the idea of wanting full customization options for everyone. Eh, I don't think this is really hypocritical, per se, assuming one is dealing with different hypotheticals. Fr'ex, I'd be all for the idea of standardizing a lot of infantry weapons in a theoretical future version of 40K, especially power weaponry - the current system seems needlessly granular. However, so long as we're dealing with the actual 9th Edition that we have before us, I'd advocate for more weapon options on characters, because it's a little silly to restrict them in the way they are now. It's a perfectly concordant set of views, they're just applying to very different scenarios. Volt and Bryan Blaire 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 There are many options for Primaris Captain for example especially when you consider relics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 There are many options for Primaris Captain for example especially when you consider relics. There are? Did I miss the rule where I didn't have to be SW to take a power axe on my primaris HQ's? Or DA to take a power sword and plasma pistol? Because that's what I want to do for primaris, but can't because its not supported by rules I am forced into. A relic is just another variation of a base weapon. For example the Emperor's sword is still a sword etc because they switch the base weapon. There is no melee relic that switches from say a sword to a maul. How can you say that with a straight face when you compare to the old marine captain? Volt, Wraith776, Bryan Blaire and 2 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Though I will say, I find it quite ironic that some people will bemoan the loss of the ability to give a Primaris Lieutenant a power axe instead of a power sword and then in the same breath complain that every faction should have completely standardized weapons and wargear with no real flavour or distinction between them. Somewhat self-defeating, I feel. Who's doing that? I don't think I've seen any "same breath" posts like that. Personally, we could just return to "power weapons" and that would be fine with me - best of both worlds for conversions - would make the rules a bit more sticky with regards to some of the Relics though. Everyone has the same right to complain - there's not a limit based on anything. Ah, that would be naming names. But individuals within this thread have in previous discussions put forward the suggestion of completely standardizing weapons across the game (so "Basic assault gun" etc), which doesn't to me at least quite gel with the idea of wanting full customization options for everyone. Personally I quite like having bespoke profiles for different weapons, though I feel the actual execution could be better. I would definitely agree that some of the limitations for weapon options are rather odd and annoying (Noxious Blightbringers only being able to use plasma pistols for example, and likewise the utter lack of options on the Lord of Contagion), but at the same time I do feel like with the transition to everything being in plastic it's a little inevitable. It's not like before when they could make a thousand different sculpts of unit champion/lieutenant/whatever in metal, with the much cheaper moulding process that entails. They've gotten better with it to be fair; the Sisters of Battle Canoness has a surprising amount of alternate parts for example, even if she is somewhat monopose, and there's always going to be the dilemma of range of options/poses versus level of detail and quality/fluidity of overall sculpt. I never said that. The thread I posted was about how specific weapon loadouts are both monumentally stupid on the scale of war 40k is meant to simulate (above the squad level) and how it restricts modelling options compared to simply generalizing loadouts for an anything goes style of play. Because fundamentally, you don't win the battle because you were shooting a bolter or a light caliber autocannon. You win because you out-maneuvered the enemy, pressed them into a disadvantageous position, and wiped them out after pinning them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 What weapons can a generic Primaris Captain take: Power Sword/Master-Crafted Power Sword/Burning Blade Power Fist/Master Crafted Power Fist Boltstorm Gauntlet/Master-Craft either Bolt Rifle (various) Plasma Pistol Relic Shield I may has miss some but that’s fairly extensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) You are missing the point, being unable to mix options is a black mark on the primaris characters. They are also missing things entirely like the flamestorm gauntlet on the gravis captain. Again, please tell me how its possible to take a power axe on my captain/ Lt without being a SW, you can't and its things like that people take issue with when old marine characters are able to be made however you like regardless of chapter. Edited November 16, 2020 by MegaVolt87 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Can't take the following on a Primaris Captain/Chapter Master at all: Chainsword Lightning claw Power axe (not even on a SW one) Power maul Thunder hammer Hand flamer Neo-volkite pistol You know who can take various of those weapons? Primaris Lieutenants and Sergeants. This is the very definition of dumb. You also can't take a plasma pistol without a power fist. You can't take a special-issue bolt carbine unless you are Unforgiven. You can't take a heavy bolt pistol without a sword and board. You know who can do those things? Primaris Lieutenants and Sergeants, and in the case of heavy bolt pistols, normal damn Marines. This continues to add to the definition of dumb. This also leads to a situation where Primaris Captains and Chapter Masters, the very people who should have unlimited access to a Chapter's Relics, are unable to take the Teeth of Terra. You also can't take the Primarch's Wrath unless you are Unforgiven, meaning that stock Codex, only the Primaris sons of the Lion can take a weapon rumored to be from Roboute Guilliman's own weapon horde. This continues the litany of the dumb. A version of a combi-weapon doesn't even exist for Primaris at this point, even though it clearly isn't too complex an item to manufacture, since it seems they are still being made. To top it all off, these restrictions also ensure that Primaris Captains and Chapter Masters can also not access Chapter gene-line specific Relics. This just continues to build on the dumb. So right off the bat, you're restricted from certain themes that would be best suited for certain types of characters, such as Space Wolves, Executioners, Salamanders, and I'm sure others I'm just not thinking of right now. All in all, these kinds of things are dumb. Just saying "But you have five to six limited options, don't ask for things or think it's wrong, because it's okay, this list is sooooo extensive" continues to follow the pile of dumb - it also ignores the fact that the number of things you can't take is more extensive than the things you can. How dumb is that? :lol: :lol: :lol: Dumb is not oooooookay, it's just limiting. Tyriks, Lexington, Gederas and 8 others 11 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Can't take the following on a Primaris Captain/Chapter Master at all: Chainsword Lightning claw Power axe (not even on a SW one) Power maul Thunder hammer Hand flamer Neo-volkite pistol You know who can take various of those weapons? Primaris Lieutenants and Sergeants. This is the very definition of dumb. You also can't take a plasma pistol without a power fist. You can't take a special-issue bolt carbine unless you are Unforgiven. You can't take a heavy bolt pistol without a sword and board. You know who can do those things? Primaris Lieutenants and Sergeants, and in the case of heavy bolt pistols, normal damn Marines. This continues to add to the definition of dumb. This also leads to a situation where Primaris Captains and Chapter Masters, the very people who should have unlimited access to a Chapter's Relics, are unable to take the Teeth of Terra. You also can't take the Primarch's Wrath unless you are Unforgiven, meaning that stock Codex, only the Primaris sons of the Lion can take a weapon rumored to be from Roboute Guilliman's own weapon horde. This continues the litany of the dumb. A version of a combi-weapon doesn't even exist for Primaris at this point, even though it clearly isn't too complex an item to manufacture, since it seems they are still being made. To top it all off, these restrictions also ensure that Primaris Captains and Chapter Masters can also not access Chapter gene-line specific Relics. This just continues to build on the dumb. So right off the bat, you're restricted from certain themes that would be best suited for certain types of characters, such as Space Wolves, Executioners, Salamanders, and I'm sure others I'm just not thinking of right now. All in all, these kinds of things are dumb. Just saying "But you have five to six limited options, don't ask for things or think it's wrong, because it's okay, this list is sooooo extensive" continues to follow the pile of dumb - it also ignores the fact that the number of things you can't take is more extensive than the things you can. How dumb is that? Dumb is not oooooookay, it's just limiting. I feel like good time to elaborqte on previous point(s) I mentioned in thread my feeling about conversion and monopose. This what you mentioned here is exactly the problem in that when originally Primaris Captains had only like two options it didn't matter they were armed with in model form to some extent. Assuming everyone knew the singular legal loadout. Now because its: Stalker + PowSword Stalker AutoRifle + PowSword AutoRifle Plasma Pistol + Fist MasterRifle + Fist (DAngels only) SShield + MasterSword etc And more I might be confusing some Primaris Liutanents w/ Captain options here but still point is just as true for Primaris Liutanents now we have plethora of options. The option of modeling a model however you right and not affecting rules is gone (well I lie you still can but is much more confusing/harder for a player) so at this stage once they expanded it they really should just expanded it OR atleast do "If a Tacticus model can take it the Captain can take it" Bryan Blaire 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I truly don't get why GW doesn't make character boxes like a modern version of the Space Marine Commander for every faction. Bryan Blaire, MegaVolt87 and Dark Shepherd 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I truly don't get why GW doesn't make character boxes like a modern version of the Space Marine Commander for every faction. Cuts the datasheet bloat and I would probably buy more than now to convert up for HQ's. Missed opportunity for sure. I spend a lot on converting CSM and old marine characters, GW is losing a lot of money from me with these limited option primaris characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 What weapons can a generic Primaris Captain take: Power Sword/Master-Crafted Power Sword/Burning Blade Power Fist/Master Crafted Power Fist Boltstorm Gauntlet/Master-Craft either Bolt Rifle (various) Plasma Pistol Relic Shield I may has miss some but that’s fairly extensive. No it isn't. Relic Swords are the same as Power Swords.The bolters are likewise all the same. The only variant in armament a Primaris captain has is a sword, a fist, a shield, and a plasma pistol. That's literally nothing in terms of armament even compared to Lieutenants, nevermind Sergeants. And also happens to be a lot of godawful weapons in terms of comp use that basically ensures the Primaris captain will never actually be useful. He's objectively complete and utter garbage compared to all of the firstborn options. Kheotour 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 If I may make a suggestion as to the Marine Captain headache: Captain - can take any weapon available to Firstborn Terminator Captain - May take any weapon available to Terminators Primaris Captain - May take any weapon available to Tacticus units Phobos Captain - May take any weapon available to Phobos Units Gravis Captain - May Take any weapon available to Gravis Units Throw in some special things like Relic Shields, Jump packs/bikes and bam...Robert is your father's brother. Want to run a Heavy Bolter Captain? Done. Dual wielding neo-volkite gravis captain? Done. Axe and Sword Wolf Lord. Double done. hell, this needs to be a thing for Eldar Autachs again. Swooping Hawk with Dark Reaper Missile Launcher and Striking Scorpion Helm, or how about a Howling Banshee Mask with Dire Avenger surikan catapults riding a Jetbike? Dark Shepherd and Bryan Blaire 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Melee weapons that inflict a single point of damage are a waste on characters like a Primaris Captain so it’s a bit pointless to wish for things like axes and claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Balance wise its argueably that he has an extra attack over his firstborn brothern to be fair. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Melee weapons that inflict a single point of damage are a waste on characters like a Primaris Captain so it’s a bit pointless to wish for things like axes and claws. Unique and different loadouts are more important to people than apparently best in slot choices. You advocate needless primaris loadout gatekeeping at this point. Slave to Darkness and Wraith776 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 No what I’m saying a character of rank wouldn’t take a lesser weapon . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 No what I’m saying a character of rank wouldn’t take a lesser weapon . No such thing as a lesser weapon in the lore for a space marine in 40k, every power weapon is considered precious and an honour to carry. Power weapons haven't been disposable since the GC/ HH. Keep moving those goalposts mate, I'm sure no one else is noticing. Wraith776, bristlybadger, Special Officer Doofy and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaosRaptor Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Melee weapons that inflict a single point of damage are a waste on characters like a Primaris Captain so it’s a bit pointless to wish for things like axes and claws. Yeeaaahhhh.....not to people who like to model unique characters that they can also play games with and not have to discuss it with their opponents first. No what I’m saying a character of rank wouldn’t take a lesser weapon . Game rules do not necessarily equate to fluff. A Primaris character wouldn't take a sword over lightning claws because they're worse. That's not a thing in-universe (aside from perhaps a specific character/chapters preferences). A Primaris character only takes a sword, and not claws, because GW decided to not make a model with them, so no rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Okay gang, no need to get into arguments about the value of weapons to an Astartes. This entire thread can be summed up as: We feel that GW isn't acting in the best interests of their customers. Again, i don't feel "vote with your wallet" is a viable action. I don't see the value in online petitions so feel an email (is campaign the right word for it?) would be better suited. GW needs to address this displeasure now, before 9th edition goes too far into "this edition ruined the game" that every edition ends up being. Hungry Nostraman Lizard and Slaanbull 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 The whole argument about weapons choice is outside the OP since this ‘issue’ is nothing new while the discussion is supposed to be about recent things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 What do you think that we, the community and customer base, need to do to fix these issues? Because GW don't appear to be changing anytime soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Is never been an issue for me, I remember being very excited to get the Primaris Captain with a power fist and plasma pistol. Is easy to kitbash as well. Just take a firstborn Captain if you just has to have an axe or claw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Like any other Captain’s weapons, they would get Master-Crafted, so damage upgrade, and can lead to additional Relics. Oddly enough, logic defeats water-carrying once again. There’s no argument that can be made against more options that a sane person can make. It doesn’t even cost GW anything except the time it takes to copy and paste the entries. Just because it isn’t your cuppa doesn’t mean that it isn’t important to others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) What do you think that we, the community and customer base, need to do to fix these issues? Because GW don't appear to be changing anytime soon. As I've been saying for a long while the issue can literally be solved any day by the community if they simply 3D Print/sculpt/etc their own models and just write their own models. The only reason there's a problem in the first place is because the fanbase has a bizarre loyalty to the company and seems to think that the only content can come from the company, even though this wasn't true for much of wargaming's history - nevermind other wargames. Like it's not even hard to vote with your wallet and completely cut off from GW content, a 3D printer that can print models with competitive quality to GW sculpts (barring the absolutely massive things, trying to make something like the Archaon model will be a nightmare for you) just involves putting 300-500 usd on a good 3D printer and the supplies to run it, and either making your own CAD files or getting them from one of the many paid groups or free stuff on thingverse. And as for rules, those can also be made any day by fans such as Grimdark Future, it really isn't hard to make a (fairly solid) ruleset over the course of a year and just spending your free time on it. And if it takes enough of a chunk out of GW's profits over time, maybe they'll wake the hell up and change things, or maybe they won't. The trick is that it doesn't actually matter because the whole issue is that the community doesn't *need* GW; GW needs the community to make a profit and stay in business. And if GW does change, great, then people can vote for their wallet and support positive changes in the wargame. Or they don't and the community can move on to the world of DIYing. At the end of the day the only reason corporations for hobbies are even needed is because of community apathy. Edited November 17, 2020 by Volt Hungry Nostraman Lizard 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/367424-gw-and-their-recent-approaches/page/7/#findComment-5632292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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