Dealing with Mortarion (Grey Knights)

[Skywrath]

Figured I'd start this thread. I have a future DG game scheduled sometime this week (hopefully) and he's bringing Mortarion. Seeing how the entire forum is ablaze with how OP he is, I wonder whether us, Grey Knights will have an easier time dealing with him (with 4 damage smites). Anyhow, keen to hear your thoughts. I imagine he will be less of a problem to us though. 

[Weltbild]

I haven‘t faced Mortarion yet but would also tend towards lots of smites around a Brother-Captain. Draigo‘s Bane of Evil bubble could really shine as well.

[Archadeus]

He's a massive problem, especially since you can revive him with 2 cp full hp 9 inches away. His mortal wounds auras are absolutely nasty. Hes 3+4++5+++ and t8 so insanely hard to kill. Also he's a beast in combat. I recommend running circles around him until your opponent is out of cp

[Brother Lunkhead]

I haven't played against Mortarion yet, but I've been following the forum chat and his stats make him quite the beast

 

He's a massive problem, especially since you can revive him with 2 cp full hp 9 inches away. His mortal wounds auras are absolutely nasty. Hes 3+4++5+++ and t8 so insanely hard to kill. Also he's a beast in combat. I recommend running circles around him until your opponent is out of cp

This might be something to consider. A hit and run strategy can yield some good results with a weaker army. It does require a lot of flexibility and advanced planning (multiple strategic options) and a fair knowledge of your opponent (Death Guard and Mortarion in this case, and the player as well). 

 

I'll keep an eye open on what other factions are doing to counter Mortarion, and report back. Hopefully I can give you something more tangible

[The Woodsman]

I haven't played against Mortarion yet, but I've been following the forum chat and his stats make him quite the beast

 

He's a massive problem, especially since you can revive him with 2 cp full hp 9 inches away. His mortal wounds auras are absolutely nasty. Hes 3+4++5+++ and t8 so insanely hard to kill. Also he's a beast in combat. I recommend running circles around him until your opponent is out of cp

This might be something to consider. A hit and run strategy can yield some good results with a weaker army. It does require a lot of flexibility and advanced planning (multiple strategic options) and a fair knowledge of your opponent (Death Guard and Mortarion in this case, and the player as well). 

 

I'll keep an eye open on what other factions are doing to counter Mortarion, and report back. Hopefully I can give you something more tangible

 

Considering Mortarion's high mobility, I'm unsure if we really have the tools to stay out of his combat range long enough to bring him down. I'm thinking a good way of dealing with him would be by "tarpitting" him. A 10-Man unit of Paladins, with Sanctuary and Transhuman on could probably tank him long enough to bring him down/for you to get ahead on VP or bring some Smites in range. Used in conjunction with Masters of Combat, those same Paladins will be able to attack even if they die before their actual turn to attack. GMDKs should be able to lay some hurt down on him too, and with a 3++ (Sanctuary) might be able to tank just enough to hit him back. 

 

I don't think we really have the fire-power to take him down before he make's it to combat, and definitely not if you want to also deny your opponent Primary points. To sum up, your best bet is (in my opinion) to try and speed-bump the Primarch while you negate your opponent's scoring ability and use your better mobility to gain board control. Mortarion is super killy, but he can't really win a game by himself, simply because he can't be everywhere at once. 

[Gnomeo]

 

 

I haven't played against Mortarion yet, but I've been following the forum chat and his stats make him quite the beast

 

 

He's a massive problem, especially since you can revive him with 2 cp full hp 9 inches away. His mortal wounds auras are absolutely nasty. Hes 3+4++5+++ and t8 so insanely hard to kill. Also he's a beast in combat. I recommend running circles around him until your opponent is out of cp

This might be something to consider. A hit and run strategy can yield some good results with a weaker army. It does require a lot of flexibility and advanced planning (multiple strategic options) and a fair knowledge of your opponent (Death Guard and Mortarion in this case, and the player as well).

 

I'll keep an eye open on what other factions are doing to counter Mortarion, and report back. Hopefully I can give you something more tangible

Considering Mortarion's high mobility, I'm unsure if we really have the tools to stay out of his combat range long enough to bring him down. I'm thinking a good way of dealing with him would be by "tarpitting" him. A 10-Man unit of Paladins, with Sanctuary and Transhuman on could probably tank him long enough to bring him down/for you to get ahead on VP or bring some Smites in range. Used in conjunction with Masters of Combat, those same Paladins will be able to attack even if they die before their actual turn to attack. GMDKs should be able to lay some hurt down on him too, and with a 3++ (Sanctuary) might be able to tank just enough to hit him back.

 

I don't think we really have the fire-power to take him down before he make's it to combat, and definitely not if you want to also deny your opponent Primary points. To sum up, your best bet is (in my opinion) to try and speed-bump the Primarch while you negate your opponent's scoring ability and use your better mobility to gain board control. Mortarion is super killy, but he can't really win a game by himself, simply because he can't be everywhere at once.

So I think a unit of purifiers with warding staves would be the best tarpit. 2+ invul in close combat. And much cheaper than the paladins

[Skywrath]

Where are you getting a 2+ invuln from? Max you can get them is 3+, thanks to Sanctuary being capped at 3. 

[The Woodsman]

Where are you getting a 2+ invuln from? Max you can get them is 3+, thanks to Sanctuary being capped at 3. 

 

Exactly. Plus, Purifiers only have the 1 Wound, as opposed to 3. Though I'm unsure as to Mortarions damage on his sweep attack, it might come out in the wash. I think the ability to fight back even after being slain is going to be key in coming out on top on that exchange as well.

[Gnomeo]

Where are you getting a 2+ invuln from? Max you can get them is 3+, thanks to Sanctuary being capped at 3.

Yep but due to the wording of the staves of adding 1 to the roll it wprks. So technically it is a 3+ invul but you get to add 1 to the dice roll when in melee.

 

Just did thea maths and works out the same 1-2 purifiers or 1-2 paladins killed.

So it really comes down to if you need the paladins elsewhere or not as they are the same number of points if not more than morty. If you have some staves on some of paladins even better.

 

As a result terminators may actually be the better speed bump due to pts though against sweep attack you will lose 3 instead of 2 paladins on average

Edited January 22, 2021 by Gnomeo

[Skywrath]

 

Where are you getting a 2+ invuln from? Max you can get them is 3+, thanks to Sanctuary being capped at 3.

Yep but due to the wording of the staves of adding 1 to the roll it wprks. So technically it is a 3+ invul but you get to add 1 to the dice roll when in melee.

 

Just did thea maths and works out the same 1-2 purifiers or 1-2 paladins killed.

So it really comes down to if you need the paladins elsewhere or not as they are the same number of points if not more than morty. If you have some staves on some of paladins even better.

 

As a result terminators may actually be the better speed bump due to pts though against sweep attack you will lose 3 instead of 2 paladins on average

 

 

I refuse to believe that. Sanctuary's effect would not work on an invuln higher than a 3, again due to the specific wording. That being said, I understand what you are saying, but Sanctuaries rule is pretty clear, nor do I think GW would be that stupid to let that slide, even with their record of game breaking mechanics.

[Gnomeo]

 

 

 

Where are you getting a 2+ invuln from? Max you can get them is 3+, thanks to Sanctuary being capped at 3.

Yep but due to the wording of the staves of adding 1 to the roll it wprks. So technically it is a 3+ invul but you get to add 1 to the dice roll when in melee.

 

Just did thea maths and works out the same 1-2 purifiers or 1-2 paladins killed.

So it really comes down to if you need the paladins elsewhere or not as they are the same number of points if not more than morty. If you have some staves on some of paladins even better.

 

As a result terminators may actually be the better speed bump due to pts though against sweep attack you will lose 3 instead of 2 paladins on average

I refuse to believe that. Sanctuary's effect would not work on an invuln higher than a 3, again due to the specific wording. That being said, I understand what you are saying, but Sanctuaries rule is pretty clear, nor do I think GW would be that stupid to let that slide, even with their record of game breaking mechanics.

Thats fine if you don't play it that way. I do the same with tide of shadows. However rules as written it works. Thats why gw changed the wording of heed. They originally just changed sanctuary but people could still use heed as it was a +1 to roll not for the invul to be improved.

 

Honestly I am fine with it atm as you can only do it on purifiers and characters. It only works in combat and takes up that precious sanctuary and a strat.

 

Gw are definitely that short sighted enough. when they released salamanders you could make your whole army untargetable with a single stratagem

[Skywrath]

I'm not in the business of cheating my opponent even if GW is hillariously short sighted. That being said, may I turn your attention to this topic:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Grey_Knights/comments/j1kmdw/purifier_squad_w_warding_staves/

 

 

Regardless of ordering, or trying to move the stacking of effects around, that specific wording tells you that Sanctuary can't be part of getting more than a 3+ (or 3++) invuln save. That doesn't mean that a unit affected by sanctuary cannot achieve a 2+ invuln save, but it does specifically state that sanctuary can't help you get there.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

 

I'm not in the business of cheating my opponent even if GW is hillariously short sighted. That being said, may I turn your attention to this topic:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Grey_Knights/comments/j1kmdw/purifier_squad_w_warding_staves/

 

 

Regardless of ordering, or trying to move the stacking of effects around, that specific wording tells you that Sanctuary can't be part of getting more than a 3+ (or 3++) invuln save. That doesn't mean that a unit affected by sanctuary cannot achieve a 2+ invuln save, but it does specifically state that sanctuary can't help you get there.

Thats why I dont use the full rules as written for tide of shadow. So that link is to reddit which is opinon based and there are numerous arguments back and fourth.

RAW however yes sanctuary means you have a max of 3+invul 100% agree. So this means you need a 3 or more after modifiers. Warding stave is a modifier to the dice roll. So a 2 then becomes a 3 making it a success.

 

How people want to interpret the interaction is between them and there opponent. I was putting this here purely as another option for morty. As RAW it is legal. Personally I am more ok with this than tide of shadows as it requires a lot of resources and only works in melee (so useless against tau).

[The Woodsman]

I feel like we're getting slightly off-topic, just wanted to point that out before Brother Lunkhead intervenes. 

 

Agreed that if you can get to a 2+ invul with Purifiers then they definitely work well as a speed bump. I still think that the Paladins will do better in actually hitting back and possibly bringing him down, thanks to Masters of Combat and their base 3 attacks. Whatever survives will have a much better chance at killing him, especially if you turn on Fury of the Proven.

 

This does, however, mean a huge investment in CP just to get rid of Mortarion, but points-wise your 10-man unit of Paladins (who will most likely all but get eviscerated in the attempt) is a fair trade-off for getting rid of or tying up Mortarion long enough to snag a victory.

 

Otherwise, what are your impressions on how well we'll do against Death Guard in general? Their new Disgustingly Resilient seems to negate most of our "quality" firepower (aka Psycannons, Convergence/Psybolt Storm Bolters)... though with so many shots coming from Storm Bolters, perhaps the S6, -1 is enough? 

 

Contagions are going to be a problem too, I feel, as we usually need to operate fairly close (and in a good amount of instances in combat range) to enemy units to be fully effective. Any thoughts on how to work around that nasty -1 toughness?

[Archadeus]

Why would you sacrifice your best unit to tie him up for a turn or 2? You need your paladins for the rest of his army.

[The Woodsman]

Paladins are good mainly thanks to their survivability. Throwing them against Morty might seem like a waste, but look at it this way. They will probably get bogged down themselves if going up against Plague Marines (2W, T5 Marines that reduce damage by 1), will definitely just stall against Blightlord Terminators (3W, T5 Terminators that reduce damage by one...) that will also most likely wallop the Paladins in combat, thanks to Flails. My thinking is that while they will most likely die in doing so, they're probably the only unit we have capable of taking Mortarion down, bar maybe GMDKs. The alternative is to have them spend two turns getting through a Plague Marine unit or worse getting jammed by Poxwalkers, all the while Mortarion is cutting down power armored marines by the bucket load with his sweep attack. 

 

We have a certain "advantage" facing Death Guard in that their core models are similarly priced in points compared to ours. This puts us on an "equal" footing. Mortarion can very quickly upset said footing. I'd rather jam him with my all-star unit pretty much designed to pull that kind of weight, while I play the mission and try and get ahead on points, rather than send them against a less valuable target while Morty wipes out everything else. 

 

How would you suggest keeping him out of combat until your opponent runs out of CP? And I'm not an expert on the new Death Guard book at all, but what about Mortarion makes him less of a threat once there's no CP left?

[Ichar]

He's a massive problem, especially since you can revive him with 2 cp full hp 9 inches away. His mortal wounds auras are absolutely nasty. Hes 3+4++5+++ and t8 so insanely hard to kill. Also he's a beast in combat. I recommend running circles around him until your opponent is out of cp

Forgive my ignorance, but what ability would bring Mortarian back for 2cp? Daemonic incursion does not work on named characters. Is there another ability like this that he could use?

[The Woodsman]

 

He's a massive problem, especially since you can revive him with 2 cp full hp 9 inches away. His mortal wounds auras are absolutely nasty. Hes 3+4++5+++ and t8 so insanely hard to kill. Also he's a beast in combat. I recommend running circles around him until your opponent is out of cp

Forgive my ignorance, but what ability would bring Mortarian back for 2cp? Daemonic incursion does not work on named characters. Is there another ability like this that he could use?

 

 

Also isn't Daemonic Incursion a Chaos Daemons stratagem?

[Brother Lunkhead]

Has anyone here actually played against a DG army with Mortarion based on the new DG codex???    I think it's a bit early to talk about just throwing up our hands and walking away. Mortarion is just a new challenge. Seek out some DG players and engage. Win or lose, let us know what happens and report back. Maybe, after some practical experience, we can come up with a few effective strategies.

 

.....and if not, Mortarion will eventually go the way of all beat sticks. He'll get nerfed.

[Corvus Fortis]

A fellow GK player from my country's chat reports that he just went second on a local tournament with 15 paladins build. He was facing Death Guard in the last round - Mortarion, couple of support heroes, a bunch of poxwalkers and plague marines and 3x plagueburst crawlers. He said that he baited mortarion in front of the rest of his army but sacrificing a banner and an apothecary, smited him in escalation and finished in combat with paladins. It appears, sons of mortarion are not as scary as they seemed.

 

Just in case, the rules indeed have been new.

[The Woodsman]

Has anyone here actually played against a DG army with Mortarion based on the new DG codex???    I think it's a bit early to talk about just throwing up our hands and walking away. Mortarion is just a new challenge. Seek out some DG players and engage. Win or lose, let us know what happens and report back. Maybe, after some practical experience, we can come up with a few effective strategies.

 

.....and if not, Mortarion will eventually go the way of all beat sticks. He'll get nerfed.

 

Fair play! 

 

My next game should be against Death Guard, my buddy and I have been waiting for the codex to drop to throw down, and we're waiting for Covid restrictions to die down a little before scheduling a game. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

My next game should be against Death Guard, my buddy and I have been waiting for the codex to drop to throw down, and we're waiting for Covid restrictions to die down a little before scheduling a game. 

Looking forward to hearing how your game goes. Good fortune to you

 

Auspex Tactics put up a nice overview of the current DG problem on his YouTube channel today. He gives a good summary

of the challenges and alternative tactics and strategies, some of which we've already discussed here.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Grey Knights at 22:20

[Skywrath]

 

Grey Knights at 22:20

 

Nothing that we didn't know already before. Also, I'm surprised that they managed to get the amount of mortal wounds we deal to Mortarion wrong. They mentioned Tide of Escalation, but they forgot we do 4MW instead of 3MW (yes, that small detail actually does matter)? Come on. 

[Icosiel]

I'm facing Death Guard on Monday, but my opponent isn't bringing Mortarion. He said the Pale King has an entire codex's worth of rules on his own, and he wants to learn his new book first!