Warhawk by Chris Wraight

[Roomsky]

And this is unambiguous?! 

 

I'm a little.. bewildered, that a Character would be introduced and then summarily executed in such short order!

 

She's a really effective foil for Erebus, here. Both are in their own way responsible for the Heresy, and both are now years beyond any kind of relevance. But while Erda accepts this, Erebus still thinks he's the most important person in the Galaxy. Erebus ends the tale confused that Erda could ever take satisfaction in her modest living conditions and didn't seem to have any ambition or even fear of death. It's an amusing commentary on Erebus (and his type,) so caught up in their own importance that they damn themselves and those they interact with to a miserable existence.

 

 

 

 Come on m8 turn that 4-star into a 5-star on Goodreads, you're letting down the team here

 

I won't give in to peer pressure! 

[mc warhammer]

Honestly, it's pretty much impossible for the Khan to actually be permanently dead - especially after Dark Imperium. There were references to Jaghatai post-Siege, like during Guilliman's dying moments after getting chopped by Fulgrim:

 

 

They mourn me already, he realised. I am dead. I cannot die now, not now. There is too much to do. Too much, too much. What will Russ do without me, or the Khan? Too much…

This clearly implies that the Khan survives, and it survived the pre-Godblight editing intact. On top of that, we have the whole Godblight-resurrection-thing going on, and shorts teasing that the Emperor might have been able to "fix" Ferrus. I think it's safe to say that at worst, the Emperor/Malcador will be fetching Jaghatai's soul and binding it back into his body in a similar style - after all, the Emperor's still got his whole aegis thing going on. If he can keep Daemons out, to the point of banishing Magnus from his throneroom the moment he gives himself to Tzeentch completely, he should also be able to keep a soul inside - although the Lion's Gate is outside the shield, so this might not work as easily in this instance.

 

I'm still betting on this being effectively a fake-out that allows the team to take the Khan out of active duty, while allowing him to be there for Dorn's return from the Vengeful Spirit anyway. Primarchs don't tend to stay down for possibly months, unless they die or get banished. They had to do something to give the Loyalists a big loss, and weaken them enough to rush the schedule.

i'm fully expecting another resurrection...which back in the day i would have argued 40k wasn't fond of but we've had enough now that it's a thing.

 

as a tangent though, does anyone remember ADB saying he suggested the khan as a possible death during the siege, one he thought could happen without changing the course of the lore overall?

[Gongsun Zan]

Finished this over the weekend - brilliant book.

 

I agree with most of what has been said already, especially the comments regarding Buried Dagger (which I despised). 

 

I think it's hard to compare this straight up with Saturnine, because they serve different purposes. Saturnine does a better job of encapsulating the Siege as a whole, but does Warhawk really need to do that again, considering it's coming off the back of Saturnine and Mortis? To me, Warhawk trumps Saturnine in character work, and has a much better payoff for its major 1v1 matchups than Saturnine did. 

 

Also, Khârn's final thoughts as he squares off against Sigismund are sublime, and I thought it was pretty interesting reading the afterword that Khârn's final POV wasn't in the original plan.

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Im trying to track a timeline over Mortis and Warhawk. Saturnine ended the last few Days of Quintus/April which would mean Mortis takes place over the next few days. How long it takes the IW to withdraw I haven’t found a figure for. The beginning of Warhawk seems to be running concurrently with Mortis

[Petitioner's City]

If it is as depicted, Erda is a bit like

Ilana from Lost!

Edited October 4, 2021 by Petitioner's City

[DarkChaplain]

So I've spontaneously decided to re-read the Oll stories from Mark of Calth and Burden of Loyalty, Unmarked and Perpetual

I'm starting to wonder what Katt is being set up for. Not only is Actae in Warhawk considering her "powerful", but Oll, in Unmarked, likens her to Medea of Colchis, the "witch". In Mortis, during one of the early Oll sections, Katt takes up the Athame when Oll couldn't cut, and is - again - regarded as a witch, but this time by the group. Oll acknowledges her as a fast learner, and she seems to have a knack for the warp at this point, and gets recognized as a psyker later on.

 

It makes me wonder if we're not being led by the nose regarding Actae-as-Moriana. Bringing Actae and Oll's crew, including Katt, together seems just a little too convenient, especially with Katt as a rookie psyker heading towards the Palace. There's gotta be a reason for Katt and co to exist at this stage, and not just to give Oll some people to play off of and allow him to tell his ancient history to.

[Fedor]

Regarding the Death Guard and Mortarion fall points...

 

I don't see this as a Buried Dagger vs Warhawk thing. Buried Dagger stayed faithful to the main theme of the background that had been around long before it; background that was very good. Personally i'm not a much of a fan of that book, i thought the becalming of the fleet sections could have been a lot better in providing the details. For someone that feels accepting the implications of Warhawk only serves to reduce the bleak cosmic horror of the original background, i've been left feeling the Death Guard have really been given the short end of the stick during the series, with no good representation of some classic lore and themes. Warhawk's alternate take on the fall isn't bad, it retains a solid theme of its own, but it reminds me of Thorpe bringing the Alpha Legion into Deliverance Lost... executed well enough, yet just not necessary and in this case a step down.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Fedor

[Kelborn]

I'm not sure if I should ask but I dare to nonetheless:

 

Haven't kept up with the Perpetual stuff. Only read about them in Imperium Secundus and that's it basically. Do I need to catch up on something? I fear I have to...

[Scribe]

I'm not sure if I should ask but I dare to nonetheless:

 

Haven't kept up with the Perpetual stuff. Only read about them in Imperium Secundus and that's it basically. Do I need to catch up on something? I fear I have to...

No, Saturnine, Mortis, and Warhawk seem to catch everything up, imo. Edited October 4, 2021 by Scribe

[DarkChaplain]

I'd say the only thing you should really look into are the shorts featuring them, and even then you can skip a few.

 

John Grammaticus has the biggest thread throughout, and he crops up in a lot of the others' plotlines. If you've read the novels up to this point, you've seen the bulk of him, I'd argue. He has been in Legion, Know No Fear, Vulkan Lives, The Unremembered Empire, Old Earth and the Siege.

 

Ollanius was added in Know No Fear, then featured in Mark of Calth's "Unmarked", then didn't show up again for years until the Perpetual audio drama, which was printed in Burden of Loyalty.

 

There's also Alivia Sureka, who originated in Vengeful Spirit, was brought back in the short story Wolf Mother from War Without End (which is probably the most skippable of hers), and then there's Old Wounds, New Scars, which has not been collected but is an important piece as it shows her journey to Terra and tackles some personal drama with John. Siege of Terra: Fury of Magnus follows on from there.

 

There's also been the insufferable Damon Prytanis, who was in Betrayer, The Unremembered Empire and Old Earth.

 

For the Siege right now, if you've read the novels, the only stuff I'd consider relevant would be Unmarked and Perpetual, to get a grip on Oll and his troupe, and Old Wounds, New Scars before you go into Fury of Magnus.

[DukeLeto69]

 

I'm not sure if I should ask but I dare to nonetheless:

 

Haven't kept up with the Perpetual stuff. Only read about them in Imperium Secundus and that's it basically. Do I need to catch up on something? I fear I have to...

No, Saturnine, Morris, and Warhawk seem to catch everything up, imo.

“Morris” I actually LOLLED

[Scribe]

 

 

I'm not sure if I should ask but I dare to nonetheless:

 

Haven't kept up with the Perpetual stuff. Only read about them in Imperium Secundus and that's it basically. Do I need to catch up on something? I fear I have to...

No, Saturnine, Morris, and Warhawk seem to catch everything up, imo.

“Morris” I actually LOLLED

[Marshal Rohr]

So I've spontaneously decided to re-read the Oll stories from Mark of Calth and Burden of Loyalty, Unmarked and Perpetual

I'm starting to wonder what Katt is being set up for. Not only is Actae in Warhawk considering her "powerful", but Oll, in Unmarked, likens her to Medea of Colchis, the "witch". In Mortis, during one of the early Oll sections, Katt takes up the Athame when Oll couldn't cut, and is - again - regarded as a witch, but this time by the group. Oll acknowledges her as a fast learner, and she seems to have a knack for the warp at this point, and gets recognized as a psyker later on.

 

It makes me wonder if we're not being led by the nose regarding Actae-as-Moriana. Bringing Actae and Oll's crew, including Katt, together seems just a little too convenient, especially with Katt as a rookie psyker heading towards the Palace. There's gotta be a reason for Katt and co to exist at this stage, and not just to give Oll some people to play off of and allow him to tell his ancient history to.

Is there a famous cat named Moriana or a character named Moriana with a cat in literature?

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

 

I'm not sure if I should ask but I dare to nonetheless:

 

Haven't kept up with the Perpetual stuff. Only read about them in Imperium Secundus and that's it basically. Do I need to catch up on something? I fear I have to...

No, Saturnine, Morris, and Warhawk seem to catch everything up, imo.

“Morris” I actually LOLLED

[Osteoclast]

how did Jaghatai learn about what happened on the Terminus Est? It’s fun to taunt Mortarian and all, but how’s he come about that particular bit of knowledge? And getting your face punched in by a daemon primarch, while undoubtedly painful, probably doesn’t compare to the whole “Everyone I love is in experiencing the platonic ideal of suffering” that Mortarian was having to deal with.

[Shield-Captain]

My order still says pending… a little nervous

[Marshal Rohr]

Wraight mentions Horus stabbing the emperor tearing open the barrier between warp and reality. This isn’t something I’d heard of being a possibility before. Am I Crazy?

. Edited October 6, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Scribe]

News to me Rohr.

[Scammel]

I very much enjoyed the book - it's my second favourite in the Siege series after Saturnine, and it's a good foil for that read. Saturnine ended with what felt like a hopeful defeat, whereas Warhawk presents us with a particularly bitter victory. My critiques would be:

 

I liked where some of the proto-IoM characters ended up, especially Sigismund, but the journey they took there was absolutely breakneck. I had anticipated that Dorn would press the Sigismund button in the third act of a book, and it would be a Big Deal to let his favoured son flout the Imperial Truth so openly, but he just... does it.

 

However, Keeler was the worse offender. All my interest and sympathy was shot in the space of a chapter, when she became a mean-spirited, skull-obsessed fanatic on a dime. The skull motif was very jarring and heavy-handed, not least because Khorne forces are still playing a major role in the Siege, not to mention the fact that Jes Goodwin told Voxcast that the Imperial skull is meant to represent the Emperor's visage after His ascension. Given that it still takes a few centuries for the Imperial Cult to become the official religion (off the top of my head), it's enough to show the direction of travel with this, rather than attempt to reach the final destination before the Siege is over.

 

I have little stake in the Death Guard and didn't like much of The Buried Dagger, but it feels quite petty that Wraight would seek to so openly retcon that book. It must be somewhat gutting for a Death Guard fan to be told 'Nah, your guy was full of s*** all along' this late into the game.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Scammel

[Marshal Rohr]

It was a daemon saying all that stuff

[Scammel]

But let's be real, it was Wraight saying it. He openly admits that he didn't like that element of TBD and wanted to retcon it, and chose to use a Daemon as a narrator so that he could cover his tracks with some ambiguity - and the man himself says so. No one's going to walk away from this book thinking that the Remnant was just pulling it all out of thin air.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Scammel

[nagashnee]

In regards to the death guard i think its the right way for authors to 'change things' and very 40k, nothing is really changed, its just another unreliable narrator saying 'THATS what you think happened'. 

 

The danger of course is if they do it too often then nothing really ever solidifies. But the buried dagger was so weak a book it never personally left a impression of events for anyone to change.

 

Also my LE shipped today, cant wait to stare at it without ever risking opening it, tho will give my ebook a second read soonish i reckon.

Edited October 6, 2021 by nagashnee

[Marshal Loss]

It must be somewhat gutting for a Death Guard fan to be told 'Nah, your guy was full of s*** all along' this late into the game.

 

Speaking as a Death Guard fan...no? Not being facetious, but why would it?

 

Wraight was very careful - as he outlined in the afterword - to stress that this was his perspective on the Death Guard's fall and of Mortarion's involvement in it. People that don't like his take can simply wave their hand and say that the Remnant was lying, and that would be perfectly valid. Even Morarg suspects that it isn't being truthful, and Mortarion loses his cool when the Khan mocks him about it; the jibe clearly strikes a nerve. And for all of the anti-Typhus sentiment espoused by numerous characters, it is he alone amongst his legion who stands validated at the end of the novel. So I definitely don't agree that Wraight's take was presented as the only believable option.

 

I can see why some wouldn't like this change, but I can't see why anybody would be gutted by it, let alone a Death Guard fan. Even if it weren't a change I agreed with, I think Wraight's approach was the right one. No previously written novel or codex is invalidated as a result of this change. It's a lot easier to ignore than pretty much every other ham-fisted retcon I can think of.

 

This new interpretation makes the fall of the Death Guard a lot more believable. Mortarion's constant backflipping re: the warp was a real problem throughout the series and Wraight finally tied that up after already taking steps to fix it in Daemonology. He even fleshed out the slaughter of the Deathshroud in Vengeful Spirit, and the Primarch's reaction after the murder of his sons is gut wrenching. Thanks to Warhawk, Mortarion finally has agency; maybe he isn't actually the guy who was tricked by his mustache-twirling first captain into throwing away his soul along with his entire legion. He obtains real power and guarantees the survival of his legion through the infinite wars and betrayals that he knows are coming, all while remaining a genuinely flawed and tragic figure. I couldn't be more pleased about the portrayal of the Death Guard and their Primarch in this book.

 

Not to mention that Vorx was name-dropped a few times. What more could a DG fan desire?

 

Anyway the actual reason why I clicked on this thread tonight was to share some quotes from and about the real star of the book.

 

Erebus.

 

Wraight clearly had so much fun following up on Child of Chaos with a little tongue in cheek humour about his status as the most reviled character in the setting. This is just a taste, and it's brilliant:

 

'I am the Hand of Destiny,' he said, without the faintest blush of shame. He knew that people laughed at the title he'd given himself, but he didn't care.

Erebus smiled ruefully. 'No one invites me anywhere any more.'

'Look at you! You dress like some mind-touched devil-boy kicked out of the village for poisoning the well.'

Erebus endured it. He was used to being scorned and disbelieved.

'So maybe being a devil-boy isn't so very shabby.'

Erebus looked down at her, too inured to serial rejection to be overly surprised. His fingers tightened on the knife-hilt.

 

Why were so many of those around him so obsessed with regrets, in any case? They had never bothered him. Sometimes he thought he might be the single most contented creature in the entire galaxy, never troubled by doubt or conscience, just doing the most exciting, the most rewarding, thing anyone had ever conceived of. Lucky him.

 

I hope devil-boy continues to be an absolute nuisance in the closing stages of the siege.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just got finished with the Khârn vs Sigismund fight. Kharns last words were absolutely perfect. Could not have encapsulated the core theme of 40K and the Imperium better. His final realization during the fight is exactly what space marines are and what the Templars are specifically

Edited October 6, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Scribe]

Can I get that quote Rohr?