Preparing for our 9:ed codex

[Grendaxe]

 

 

You may want to double check that prescience bit. We still functionally have that power, named Presage

 

You maybe thinking about that double shoot strategem, which is now +1 shot with bolters?

That's what i mean. Prescience has been replaced by Presage which gives a +1 attack on a unit. We don't have a +1 to hit anymore.

Im gonna check but Im pretty sure Presage = old prescience, and the +1 attack you refer to is the nerfed version of the old shoot twice stratagem

 

 

Oh i'm so sorry!  You guys are completely right. My bad, i missed the words "hit roll" in the following line in the video  :

"Each time a model in this unit makes an attack, add one to the attack hit roll"

 

I'm dumb sometimes  thanks for pointing it out.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Grendaxe

[Karhedron]

5++ toting rhinos seem like the big winner here, oh and 5++ dreads seem solid for a backfield lascannon unit.

 

Given how popular Dreads are 9th edition, sticking a 5++ on them to help against heavy anti-tank seems like a very tasty buff. I would probably go multimelta and a CCW and stomp into the midfield. Melt enemy armour and dissuade anyone who fancies the idea of taking down Rubricae in melee.

 

For the points, a couple of 5++ Rhinos just to eat Overwatch and squat on Objectives actually seems like a very good idea. They will annoy the heck out of your opponent who would probably rather shoot at just about anything else than these metal bawkses. ;)

[Karhedron]

Overall there are good things in the codex but also an impressive number of nerfs. Most of our spells are 18” range now. We were already struggling with the range and now its going to be even worse.

Given that most games are now fought over mid-field Objectives, that 18" range probably won't be quite as much of a hindrance as it first appears. If you are on an Objective and nothing is within 18" range of you then your opponent probably isn't scoring very much from Primaries.

 

We dont have much way to avoid being slaughtered in close combat expect screening...

There is plenty of tasty counter-charge stuff in the codex. Hellbrutes, Spawn, Winged Princes, some flavours of Daemon Engine, even SoT are as good as Bladeguard in melee. Stopping your opponent charging you will be tough but at least you can make sure their victory is short-lived.

 

I haven't seen how summoning works in the new codex yet. If you really want to keep the enemy at arms' length, can you summon a screen of cheap Horrors?

[Prot]

 

Overall there are good things in the codex but also an impressive number of nerfs. Most of our spells are 18” range now. We were already struggling with the range and now its going to be even worse.

Given that most games are now fought over mid-field Objectives, that 18" range probably won't be quite as much of a hindrance as it first appears. If you are on an Objective and nothing is within 18" range of you then your opponent probably isn't scoring very much from Primaries.

 

We dont have much way to avoid being slaughtered in close combat expect screening...

There is plenty of tasty counter-charge stuff in the codex. Hellbrutes, Spawn, Winged Princes, some flavours of Daemon Engine, even SoT are as good as Bladeguard in melee. Stopping your opponent charging you will be tough but at least you can make sure their victory is short-lived.

 

I haven't seen how summoning works in the new codex yet. If you really want to keep the enemy at arms' length, can you summon a screen of cheap Horrors?

 

 

 

Actually I would say in practice I have to disagree with this. The range factor on a smaller table can help powers that target opponents at times, but buffs are not that helpful without the 6" bonus.

 

The other issue is the +1 to cast is very much offset by the new powers getting a plus 1 to cast penalty. The one good thing about this is Smite.

 

In my early games I'm already feeling smite is going to be heavily leaned on. The rest is miscellaneous utility, buffs/debuffs, etc. 

 

On the close combat... it's too soon for me to have a feel for this. SoT are good... not great, but they are certainly much better than before. The problem is the army is going to have to work at helping those guys out in any psychic way that it can. 

 

Helbrutes are probably going to have to fill a void. I've always used Spawn, but I've had some really rough rides with them too, but they are really fun and cheap enough. I do think Tzaangors feel quite a bit worse but cheaper. 

 

I think the answer is in the psychic phase really. We can go after a few helpful units like Maulerfiends (which did get better) but I think no matter how you slice it we will never be great in CC or great in shooting. It's going to be a balancing act, probably largely conducted with a flexibility only found in the Psychic phase. 

 

It might just be that our strength is going to simply be Obsec troops being as difficult as possible to get rid of? I'm not sure so far. My games have been all over the place.

[WarriorFish]

I am enjoying reading all the ideas and assessments, it's certainly going to be an interesting couple of months for Sons ahead - I can only hope I can get some games in so I'm doing more than reading other experiences and opinions :P Keep the sorcerous musings coming everyone :tu:

[Xenith]

Indeed. When the codex drops I'm looking to start up a 'Thousand Sons Unit of the Week' series, as some of you may have already realised, where we'll go through and dissect the various units, discussing their application and synergies, how to get the most from them. I'm looking forward to seeing what we come up with!

Edited August 10, 2021 by Xenith

[Skerr]

At first glance it looked like a good number of our spells are easier to cast. Not only the baked in +1 but some of the WCs improved also. Doom bolt is much better now. I know some got harder as well but I have not done a true side to side comparison.

 

We are really going to need to get some experiencehammer going and it feels like we might be learning new things over the next few months. Or it might be a flop, well see.

 

I just have to be honest that I am much more excited during preview preorder week for us in 9th than I was for the 8th index (understandable) and the 8th codex.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Overall there are good things in the codex but also an impressive number of nerfs. Most of our spells are 18” range now. We were already struggling with the range and now its going to be even worse.

Given that most games are now fought over mid-field Objectives, that 18" range probably won't be quite as much of a hindrance as it first appears. If you are on an Objective and nothing is within 18" range of you then your opponent probably isn't scoring very much from Primaries.

 

We dont have much way to avoid being slaughtered in close combat expect screening...

There is plenty of tasty counter-charge stuff in the codex. Hellbrutes, Spawn, Winged Princes, some flavours of Daemon Engine, even SoT are as good as Bladeguard in melee. Stopping your opponent charging you will be tough but at least you can make sure their victory is short-lived.

 

I haven't seen how summoning works in the new codex yet. If you really want to keep the enemy at arms' length, can you summon a screen of cheap Horrors?

 

 

 

Actually I would say in practice I have to disagree with this. The range factor on a smaller table can help powers that target opponents at times, but buffs are not that helpful without the 6" bonus.

 

The other issue is the +1 to cast is very much offset by the new powers getting a plus 1 to cast penalty. The one good thing about this is Smite.

 

In my early games I'm already feeling smite is going to be heavily leaned on. The rest is miscellaneous utility, buffs/debuffs, etc. 

 

On the close combat... it's too soon for me to have a feel for this. SoT are good... not great, but they are certainly much better than before. The problem is the army is going to have to work at helping those guys out in any psychic way that it can. 

 

Helbrutes are probably going to have to fill a void. I've always used Spawn, but I've had some really rough rides with them too, but they are really fun and cheap enough. I do think Tzaangors feel quite a bit worse but cheaper. 

 

I think the answer is in the psychic phase really. We can go after a few helpful units like Maulerfiends (which did get better) but I think no matter how you slice it we will never be great in CC or great in shooting. It's going to be a balancing act, probably largely conducted with a flexibility only found in the Psychic phase. 

 

It might just be that our strength is going to simply be Obsec troops being as difficult as possible to get rid of? I'm not sure so far. My games have been all over the place.

 

"Fight at mid table, hide behind Rhinos, hug objectives, don't die" was pretty much the TS strategy from 3rd and 4th edition. Now we can do that, but also have a bit more firepower and maneuverability at key moments.

 

Exalted Sorcerers can be pumped up into passable beatsticks, thanks to their better profile (especially the save) and the fact that they can get the same D2 sword that Terminators do. All it takes is a good relic/Warlord Trait combo and you can kit one of them out as a sort of troubleshooter. That can help with countercharge, as can the fact that Spawn and Mutaliths both got improved and Defilers are really solid in CC, plus take up a ton of real estate for Warpflame Gargoyles.

 

Speaking of Summoning.....it looks like Slow and Purposeful could allow us to move and then Summon....at least with Infantry characters, since you Summon at the end of the Movement Phase if you didn't move (and would count as Remaining Stationary), and Slow and Purposeful lets you count as Remaining Stationary after a Normal Move until your next Command Phase. It doesn't say that's just for shooting, and bullet #5 in the relevant section of the FAQ says that abilities that allow you to count as Remaining Stationary allow you to trigger rules that depend on Remaining Stationary/not moving (unless specifically noted). Daemonic Ritual qualifies.

 

Theoretically, you could disembark from a Rhino, make a Normal Move, pop Slow and Purposeful and then Summon, since disembarking says you never count as Stationary even if you don't move further, but Slow and Purposeful overrides that and point 7 in the FAQ about disembarking units only prevents disembarking after moving if the transport used a "counts as Stationary" effect.

 

This could also have some play with Aetherstride, giving a character +3 move and FLY without taking away "INFANTRY" like a disc does.

 

You can't do the above from a Dreadclaw or Drill when it appears because you arrived as Reinforcements and there's a bullet point specifically forbidding "Counts as Stationary" effects from kicking in on the turn a unit arrives in that way.

 

Finally, for those worried about Blessings having shorter ranges now, you can dedicate one character as a buffbot and give them the Prism of Echoes, which doubles the range of effect of their Blessing powers. That should do the trick.

Edited August 10, 2021 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Another thought: It looks like our AIRCRAFT game is going to be quite strong. A combination of Hell Talon Infernal Bombs, Heldrake Vector Strikes, 5++ on Gunships, and further use of Weaver or Glamour to protect key planes could allow us to do both do damage in the Movement Phase and be bolder with Gunships than we could otherwise.

 

Warpflame Gargoyles also no longer forbids AIRCRAFT or Heldrakes, so yet more damage at the beginning of the Fight Phase. We can do Mortal Wound damage in Command with Infernal Masters, Movement with planes and Dreadclaws and certain other effects, Psychic with our obvious tools there, and before we Fight.  Good for cracking characters with a per-phase limit on incoming wounds.

 

Heldrakes getting AP -2, 2D claws and +1 to hit if the enemy has FLY-not just AIRCRAFT (plus 5 attacks now) could combine with the new 2D3 attacks on the Baleflamer to help them munch Raiders.

 

Just theory for now. We'll see how it actually shakes out.

Edited August 10, 2021 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Prot]

I'm trying to keep as many CP as possible. I'm finding I'm constantly leaning on a few essential strats through many phases (-1 damage is critical in 9th for example). So I'm only playing a Battalion for now. As a result my HQ's are a touch limited. Besides, I'm finding I need to find room for real damage dealers, and not delicate HQ's that play a more... passive role.

 

Right now I'm using my Daemon Prince more, and liking him more than I did previous to the codex. I know it's not for everyone but just to me seeing my new conversion whipping across the field with Conniving Armour is pretty cool and the base Daemon Sword is actually respectable now!

 

 

 

Another thought: It looks like our AIRCRAFT game is going to be quite strong. A combination of Hell Talon Infernal Bombs, Heldrake Vector Strikes, 5++ on Gunships, and further use of Weaver or Glamour to protect key planes could allow us to do both do damage in the Movement Phase and be bolder with Gunships than we could otherwise.

 

Funny, I was just thinking about this after my last game last night. Here's the funny thing... if someone were to search  my posts on Thousand Sons games, (I'll save you the trouble), you'd find I was a huge proponent of engaging the opponent with my Heldrake(s).

 

I believe the drake went up 10 points but the flyer addition is good, and the anti-fly assault capability is good, but I still think I'm looking at simply tying things up.

 

I do like the bombing run for the heck of it too.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I'm trying to keep as many CP as possible. I'm finding I'm constantly leaning on a few essential strats through many phases (-1 damage is critical in 9th for example). So I'm only playing a Battalion for now. As a result my HQ's are a touch limited. Besides, I'm finding I need to find room for real damage dealers, and not delicate HQ's that play a more... passive role.

 

 

 

You could just make one Exalted a Dilettante and have them rock two Relics, one of which is the Prism of Echoes. Then have them also do something else. 

[Skerr]

 

 

I'm trying to keep as many CP as possible. I'm finding I'm constantly leaning on a few essential strats through many phases (-1 damage is critical in 9th for example). So I'm only playing a Battalion for now. As a result my HQ's are a touch limited. Besides, I'm finding I need to find room for real damage dealers, and not delicate HQ's that play a more... passive role.

 

 

You could just make one Exalted a Dilettante and have them rock two Relics, one of which is the Prism of Echoes. Then have them also do something else.

I actually started considering today, to drop Ahriman, in favor of a second tricked out Exalted. I do need to look at the point increase to Boomwolfs point but for some reason my mind started entertaining this today.

 

I normally run Ari, a DP and 1 exalted. If the limitation on cult relics for taking Ari is the norm, I might try this and get a couple bonus Sorcerers (termi maybe) out of the deal for cabal points. Still debating. It's hard not taking Ahriman though, my favorite character in all of 40k. He does get the straight reroll to tests though.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Skerr

[Prot]

Yea I've been running  Ahriman, a DP, and an Infernal Master, but I am thinking of dropping Ahriman right now as well.

 

Still haven't seen anything that would have me take Magnus.

[MillionsSons]

Yea I've been running Ahriman, a DP, and an Infernal Master, but I am thinking of dropping Ahriman right now as well.

 

Still haven't seen anything that would have me take Magnus.

 

I missed this topic reading the codex...How is Ahriman not auto include because of cult relic?

1. Rerolling psychic test is huge, he might become my main damage dealer now

2. Auto include relic for me now: athenean scroll (to pass 8-psychic test spell) and crystal

[Skerr]

I forget the exact wording.

 

If he is your warlord your locked out of Cult relics. It's not really a gamechanger for me probably but I had never really considered a list without him before. For some access to Cult Relics might be worth it. My first list will include him.

 

Though for experimentation stacking Exalted might be a viable option for the first time. Get a couple bonus Sorcerers for Cabal points and their Sigil is a needed buff.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Skerr

[Ahzek451]

Indeed, I mentioned it in the other thread. If ahriman is your warlord, no cult relic access in any way shape or form per the wording in the cult section. If ahriman is NOT your warlord, you cannot use the strat ot anything to give him his warlord trait. Which isn't a big bummer since his trait is diminished. But I think gw did that on purpose to help bring exalted to the forefront.

 

The right combo of relics and legion command traits can pretty much clone an exalted into ahriman. In which case, the only thing that makes him unique is damage 3 staff and the ability to re-roll tests.

 

I feel if I'm going to take ahriman, he will simply be a comfortable caster that sits in the middle of the army to reliably get off some of the more difficult spells.

[MillionsSons]

Yes I think there is absolutely no point having him as warlord

But still auto include I think.

[Ahzek451]

One thing I don't see mentioned yet that seems subtle and pretty cool is the forewarning strat. Most strats like this is 12". Ours is 18". And, I could be wrong, but the goofy wording makes you think you need two units next to each other....but all it asks is for a core arana astartes to be next to a arcana astartes psyker. Ok...so....according to the wording, if rubrics and scarabs are our main core units and they are already psykers then......anything popping up within 18" of any of these units get a free shot at them. Cool!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

One thing I don't see mentioned yet that seems subtle and pretty cool is the forewarning strat. Most strats like this is 12". Ours is 18". And, I could be wrong, but the goofy wording makes you think you need two units next to each other....but all it asks is for a core arana astartes to be next to a arcana astartes psyker. Ok...so....according to the wording, if rubrics and scarabs are our main core units and they are already psykers then......anything popping up within 18" of any of these units get a free shot at them. Cool!

Yep. That's going to be fun.

[Trokair]

One thing I don't see mentioned yet that seems subtle and pretty cool is the forewarning strat. Most strats like this is 12". Ours is 18". And, I could be wrong, but the goofy wording makes you think you need two units next to each other....but all it asks is for a core arana astartes to be next to a arcana astartes psyker. Ok...so....according to the wording, if rubrics and scarabs are our main core units and they are already psykers then......anything popping up within 18" of any of these units get a free shot at them. Cool!

 

I think the wording allows for a Hellbrute to shoot at the newly arrived unit.

[Ahzek451]

 

 

One thing I don't see mentioned yet that seems subtle and pretty cool is the forewarning strat. Most strats like this is 12". Ours is 18". And, I could be wrong, but the goofy wording makes you think you need two units next to each other....but all it asks is for a core arana astartes to be next to a arcana astartes psyker. Ok...so....according to the wording, if rubrics and scarabs are our main core units and they are already psykers then......anything popping up within 18" of any of these units get a free shot at them. Cool!

I think the wording allows for a Hellbrute to shoot at the newly arrived unit.

Ohhh very nice. I missed that they are core.

[Prot]

 

 

One thing I don't see mentioned yet that seems subtle and pretty cool is the forewarning strat. Most strats like this is 12". Ours is 18". And, I could be wrong, but the goofy wording makes you think you need two units next to each other....but all it asks is for a core arana astartes to be next to a arcana astartes psyker. Ok...so....according to the wording, if rubrics and scarabs are our main core units and they are already psykers then......anything popping up within 18" of any of these units get a free shot at them. Cool!

I think the wording allows for a Hellbrute to shoot at the newly arrived unit.

Ohhh very nice. I missed that they are core.

 

 

Yea, I forgot to say in my game I did actually do this, and wow with even 5 Scarabs, people do NOT want a piece of that action. To clarify I wasn't using a Helbrute, but the feeling I have is most of the deep strikers I find are very, very small because of the current board size. 18" is just so cool and fluffy for us.

[Trokair]

Actually build the army that has been sitting in my cupboard since plastic Sons came out.

Should be something along the lines of (I haven’t cheeked in a few years):

Arhiman 30k + Arhiman 40k

3 Exalted Sorcerer

Deamon Prince

30 Rubric

10 Terminators

30 Tzzangor

Castellax-achea as a count as hellbrute.

Well, I did not actually start building until around three weeks ago, but it has been done. Ended up with an additional Demon Prince, 10 Rubric, 5 terminators and some other models, and way too many Zaangors still left unbuilt. I’ll get to them one day.

Ready to play, and maybe paint.

The greater possessed are spawns for the moment, the other shadowspear model will be a second infernal master. The Ogroid on disk and the ogroid with wings are both Demon Princes with wings.

Edit: And I just noticed that 40k Ahriman is on the DP’s disk and not his own (both are still separate from their disk).

Edited August 15, 2021 by Trokair

[Skerr]

I have a list for a 1000 point game this Saturday. Really conflicted.

 

Never did a list without Ahriman but at 1000 points and wanting to squeeze in warpflamers , a rhino and 3 squads of rubrics this is my first draft.

 

 

Cult of Time

Hq. 1 Exalted Sorc on disc, Warlord: immaterial echo, hourglass of Manat.

 

1 Exalted Sorcerer on disc, undying form (with strat), conniving plate

 

1 Infernal Master

 

Troops. 3 five man rubrics, 2 w src and icon, 1 warpflamers w icon and WF Pistols.

 

Elite: 1 five man Sot with SRC.

 

1 rhino, stock.

 

I might put conniving plate on the Infernal Master instead and maybe work another relic in.

 

Thoughts? I could be playing anyone but my last 2 games were against space marines.

 

I guess I could drop the icons and warpflamer pistol or maybe a squad of Rubrics to make room for Ari.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Skerr

[Prot]

I think it looks pretty standard for a thousand points. I mean the thing is with Thousand Sons is the HQ requirements drive the army no matter the point value of the game. So the HQ's are going to be more of a burden on the list at lower point games like this. So I think the points saved on Ahriman are fine. 

 

You want to use the Infernal Master, he's fun. The Exalteds on Disk give you flexibility while keeping that HQ count high, and having some points left over for fun stuff. I think it looks good.