+ Some Things Are Best Left Forgotten Discussion +

[apologist]

 

***

 

It is the thirty-fourth Millennium. Or perhaps the thirty-third. Few now stand securely enough both to claim differently – and to be heard.
 
All is unsure, all is uncertain. Under the benevolent eye of the Senatorum Imperialis – the High Lords of Terra – the Imperium basks in a golden age. The heretics of millennia past are extinguished or contained; the xenos empires that threatened mankind's manifest destiny broken or scattered. Humanity is united in the worship of the enthroned God-Emperor, whose words are revealed to the Ecclesiarch of the Imperial Church.
 
This is one truth.
 
Others say that the Emperor is dead, or as good-as; that His dream has grown rotten beneath the surface. Others claim oppression, or restriction, or loss. Tales of predation by aliens; of harrowings by pirates and heretics and monsters, emerge daily, and are suppressed by His Inquisition, for fear of disturbing the flock.
 
In the galactic north-west (if such an antiquated system has meaning in a galaxy as vast and wondrous as this) tales emerge of another truth. Tales come of the return of a legend, so ancient that the High Lords believe the word all-but forgotten. 
 
Primarch.

 

***

 

+[identquery: unresoved – all records REDACTED]+
 

 

***

 

 

 

#iwanttoknow

 

 

[//praestolor – appended noospheric inloadlinks to come+]
[+++ORIONORIONORIONORION+++]
[iwanttoknow]

A quick reserved post that I’ll populate with further info on the project; but for anyone interested, this is an open invitational – that is, if you’d like to get involved, you are more than welcome.

For the moment, there’s a summary and overview of the project on the accompanying website.

This thread is intended as a catch-all discussion thread for all Frater who’d like to ask questions, get involved in creative writing exercises or paint up some of the Astartes (and other forces) who are involved; and explore the War of the False Primarch.

Hope you choose to get involved – feel free to ask questions or start posting up your Partisans and Pentarchy!

Edited August 25, 2021 by Grotsmasha

[Xin Ceithan]

Been following the developments on the Website …. but still haven‘t take the plunge towards Facebook.  ;) 
So It‘s great to find this and an opportunity to comment / cooperate here on the B&C ! 

[No Foes Remain]

Just spent about 2 hours on that group blog link you posted, there is some bloody good stuff on there and I am looking foward too seeing what else comes up.

 

Really want to know more about Volnoscere and his(it's?) fate.

[apologist]

Just spent about 2 hours on that group blog link you posted, there is some bloody good stuff on there and I am looking foward too seeing what else comes up.

Really want to know more about Volnoscere and his(it's?) fate.

 

Ta very much. It's been such a treat to have so much good material submitted; and having people send in pictures and ideas has left me able to concentrate on keeping the pace up with writing and chaining things together. It's hard work, but very rewarding, as it allows me to lay in the groundwork before seeing people fill in the detail of battles, characters and factions. The wonderful thing is that ideas tend to spiral upwards, leading to more inspiration: fantastic!

 

 

Always pleased to see another Apologist project, as in both writing and modeling/painting, I adore the tone of your particular brand of creativity. 

More personally, as someone who has head canon'd their own version of the Death Eagles (mostly as an excuse to keep using my 30k loyalist Emperor's Children in 40k, to be honest) I have a soft spot for "suspiciously handsome" marines letting their idealism and commitment to the Imperial Truth get the better of them. 

 

Very kind of you to say. As you're likely aware, the Death Eagles are involved in the War of the False Primarch, so they feature heavily. Have you seen the Index Astartes article on this curiously two-headed group? Articles like this are immensely fun to write, as it allows me to bring in retconned material – the mysterious Rogue Trader-era 'Death Eagles' marines models – and address the fact that GW have used the same name for two different canon Chapters. Coming up with creative possible explanations for these apparent 'errors' is a personal favourite topic, as it highlights the idea that we're dealing with unreliable and biased narrators; that 'everything you have been told is a lie'; and also hammers home the sheer weight of history that bears down on the 40k galaxy.

 

If you've got any Death Eagles marines painted up, I'd love to see you post them here. They'll come in immensely useful for illustrating future articles in which the Chapter are invovled.

[Stofficus]

 

Very kind of you to say. As you're likely aware, the Death Eagles are involved in the War of the False Primarch, so they feature heavily. Have you seen the Index Astartes article on this curiously two-headed group? Articles like this are immensely fun to write, as it allows me to bring in retconned material – the mysterious Rogue Trader-era 'Death Eagles' marines models – and address the fact that GW have used the same name for two different canon Chapters. Coming up with creative possible explanations for these apparent 'errors' is a personal favourite topic, as it highlights the idea that we're dealing with unreliable and biased narrators; that 'everything you have been told is a lie'; and also hammers home the sheer weight of history that bears down on the 40k galaxy.

 

If you've got any Death Eagles marines painted up, I'd love to see you post them here. They'll come in immensely useful for illustrating future articles in which the Chapter are invovled.

 

 

I did quite enjoy the Index Astartes article, though my own route with them I must say is quite a bit different. I took the approach of "Well, what if FW were to follow through on their little blurb from HH: Conquest, and eventually feature them in a 40k Imperial Armour, much like they did with the Minotaurs?" i.e. more or less a complete retcon of what little pre-existing fluff there was. 

 

Considering all that was mentioned of the 32nd Millenial of the Emperor's Children is they refused to deface or modify their IIIrd legion heraldry, and would throw themselves into the fight against the traitors, I felt it unlikely their old RT paint scheme would be compatible, or their slightly more recent black-and-white styling for that matter - and would instead be a "duplicate" chapter much like you've done here, and in line with what was done with the Minotaur re-creation FW has built over the years. 

 

As such, I figured the "present" chapter would exist due to the benevolence of the Raven Guard during the Scouring hiding what they might see as fellow travelers seeking vengeance for grievous harm, and would conceal their provenance under their fold come the 2nd Founding, and keep them out of sight somewhere on the galactic fringe, only to be called up to deal with threats worth possibly revealing their dubious origin to more puritanical sects of the Imperium. 

 

For the War of the False Primarch, I could see this being a legitimizing effort by my own head-canon, whereby crushing this most recent upstart Primarch, false or not, could cement their place in the eyes of those suspicious corners of the Imperium who might otherwise wish to peel back the curtain on some very curiously purple and aquiline astartes. Given their history as "orphans of betrayal," I can see the chapter being incredibly suspicious of any so-called Primarchs and their hubris - something which would extend to the 41st millenium and the apparent return of one "Avenging Son." Add in a little of Dark Angel style inner circle taking particular pleasure in hunting down and exterminating Emperor's Children warbands, and you've got the jist of the concept I had built up of my own. 

 

I had always intended on trying to build a proper Index Astartes article of my own as a thought experiment in fully fleshing out my ideas and trying to ground it in a way which wasn't needlessly "Mary Sue," but never got around to it. 

 

Unfortunately, it's a touch incompatible with your vision here - and I suspect the very classically styled IIIrd legion marines that make up my force wouldn't properly do credit to the much more fulsome creativity on display here.  

[jeremy1391]

This is soooooo freakin cool!

[Gamiel]

I did quite enjoy the Index Astartes article, though my own route with them I must say is quite a bit different. I took the approach of "Well, what if FW were to follow through on their little blurb from HH: Conquest, and eventually feature them in a 40k Imperial Armour, much like they did with the Minotaurs?" i.e. more or less a complete retcon of what little pre-existing fluff there was. 

Can you expand on this for us that don't know what you are talking about?

[Stofficus]

 

I did quite enjoy the Index Astartes article, though my own route with them I must say is quite a bit different. I took the approach of "Well, what if FW were to follow through on their little blurb from HH: Conquest, and eventually feature them in a 40k Imperial Armour, much like they did with the Minotaurs?" i.e. more or less a complete retcon of what little pre-existing fluff there was. 

Can you expand on this for us that don't know what you are talking about?

 

 

Sure,

 

So back when FW released the Badab War series of Imperial Armour books, they built it around taking a swath of Rogue-Trader era Space Marine chapters which had limited fluff and re-wrote them into something which fit 40k's more mature/refined atmosphere of the time. However, rather than just retcon whoelsale what came before, they usually acknowledged inconsistencies and past fluff. The Mintoaurs, being a fan favourite, got more detail than most, and it went something like this: 

 

The original chapter had a striped paint scheme and fairly bright colours, and were known as violent unstable berserkers. FW took this, and stated that chapter did in fact exist, but ceased being active for reasons unknown, only to re-emerge decades later sporting the modern bronze-and-red Mintoaur aesthetic, and were still very violent, aggressive astartes, but disciplined and unflinchingly loyal to the High Lords, and would do their dirty work for them while being very well equipped. 

 

In short, FW took little blurbs or very small index astartes articles of early and otherwise abandoned space marine chapters, and re-wrote them while still respecting what came before. 

 

Now, the Death Eagles here were an old RT chapter which were, again, largely abandoned by 2nd/3rd edition. FW name dropped their title in their Horus Heresy publications as a loyal host of Emperor's Children, making it appear that perhaps they might feature in future "modern" Imperial Armour books with a similar treatment as the old Badab chapters, but alas FW has largely ceased to exist as it once was, so we'll never know. 

 

Apologist here has stepped into that void masterfully, doing much the same style of modernization/development FW used to do - though I have my own much less developed head canon on the same subject. 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Excellent work on the Flesh Eater.

[Gamiel]

Brother apologist, what's your inspiration for + Some Things Are Best Left Forgotten +'s lore about Ordo Astartes and the Vigilants?

[Xin Ceithan]

This might just  get me out if my post COVID hobby lag yet :p

 

And while we are in FAQ mode : what‘s the state of / on the Mechanicus? Any ideas / links yet ? 

[apologist]

This might just get me out if my post COVID hobby lag yet :p

And while we are in FAQ mode : what‘s the state of / on the Mechanicus? Any ideas / links yet ?

At the start of the War, the Adeptus Mechanicus are studiedly neutral; their High Lord effectively waiting to see how things play out. As political pressure builds, the Mechanicus are effectively forced to officially declare against the ‘False Primarch’.

 

By that point, however, most of the local Forgeworlds have already ended up supplying or supporting one side or the other; and many Mechanicus forces have used the disruption to pursue their own local vendettas.

 

Mechanicus forces, as with most Imperial institutions, are present fighting on both sides of the war.

[apologist]

Brother apologist, what's your inspiration for + Some Things Are Best Left Forgotten +'s lore about Ordo Astartes and the Vigilants?

The Ordo Astartes were an opportunity to bring in the Inquisition. Since the Ordo Hereticus don’t yet exist, and we’re much closer in time to the Heresy, I figured there would be a substantial portion of the Inquisition dedicated to the increasingly distant and independent Space Marines. Unlike (say) Badab, the Inquisition here are much more divided. Lots of Inquisitors are keen to exploit or follow the ‘Primarch’ – at least as many who want to destroy or hide him.

 

As for the Vigilants, they were very much a way to allow people who wanted to get involved, but weren’t attracted to any of the established Partisans or Pentarchy Chapters.

 

I wanted to ensure the Vigilants paint scheme allowed people to have lots of different schemes (it always frustrated me that the Deathwatch forced you to paint all these awesome schemes black!), so adapted the RT-era Field Police scheme and markings, leaving the rest of the armour as the Chapter’s original. After all, these were enforcers for the part of the Inquisition policing the Adeptus Astartes.

[Xin Ceithan]

 

This might just get me out if my post COVID hobby lag yet

And while we are in FAQ mode : what‘s the state of / on the Mechanicus? Any ideas / links yet ?

At the start of the War, the Adeptus Mechanicus are studiedly neutral; their High Lord effectively waiting to see how things play out. As political pressure builds, the Mechanicus are effectively forced to officially declare against the ‘False Primarch’.

 

By that point, however, most of the local Forgeworlds have already ended up supplying or supporting one side or the other; and many Mechanicus forces have used the disruption to pursue their own local vendettas.

 

Mechanicus forces, as with most Imperial institutions, are present fighting on both sides of the war.

 

Well, that is what I get from being generic — I was wondering if there is already some narrative going on which Forgeworlds lean towards which side ( Partisan / Pentarchy) since there are some nice ones named on those maps. 

E.g., from what we have seen of the Wormwood Sons, I suppose there are some connections already?

Though given the idea behind this whole endeavor, it would easy to include models/ forces which seemingly contradicting localities amid the mists of war and Imperial record keeping.

[apologist]

Generally speaking, the Forgeworlds in Sector Morqub will honour long-standing relationships with the Partisan Chapters; while those in Heliopolis are more obviously divided.

 

Behind the curtain, Nero-Gollos, the Fabricator-General, is attempting to use the appearance of a Primarch to destabilise the ascendant Ecclesiarchy. Old – or well-informed – enough to remember the time before the Church was official, he/she/it has seen how the Ecclesiarch has shifted the power base of the High Lords, and would quite like a figure, genuine Primarch or not, to shake the power base.

 

The Forgeworlds, however, are notoriously independent; so many of them couldn’t give two figs about Imperial politics, and have made their own decision.

 

To complicate this further, the Extinction Fleets are well-staffed with Skitarii – and two entire Titan Legions – so the appearance of lots of nominally allies but potentially hostile Mechanicus forces has the hackles of many local Techpriests up.

 

Lots of complexity – lots of space. Don’t feel that picking the Mechanicus is generic in any way!

[Xin Ceithan]

That is a pretty good Synopsis to start from.
Thank you very much!

[Midnightmare]

@apologist - thank you for the very kind words mate. This has been an excellent project to be part of; it has really got the creative juices flowing in both converting, painting and of course writing!

 

Some of the works from other guys has been sublime and truly inspiring. Each member of each faction are truly labours of love :)

[Gamiel]

Have any Knight Houses ben recorded fighting the this conflict? And any thoughts regarding them?

[Xin Ceithan]

Have any Knight Houses ben recorded fighting the this conflict? And any thoughts regarding them?

 

oh, don’t tempt me…:p

But there are those tiny HH Knights ,,,

 

So, from the maps there are three “major” forges involved 

 

Avarice  ( Morqub Sub; possible Partisan tendencies)

 

Heliopolian (Heliopolis Sub)

Neo Jove (Moreau Sub) 

 

which are in a “it’s complicated” state of affairs.

 

 

Guess there room for a Knight house or two.

 

I am interested to bump around ideas / open for an exchange in terms of ideas for the Mechanicus in this btw -

 maybe start a sub thread in the Mechanicus subforum to keep things from clogging up this thread  here ? 

[apologist]

Oh, no – please do discuss here; keeping things all in one place is precisely why I created it!

[Gamiel]

I'm not certain I'm doing this right but here are some Knight Houses concepts:

+ Pentarchian Houses:
House Indra - see astropaths as blessed since they have stood before the Emperor and each Knight-pilot (know as a raja in their dialect) is followed by an astropath-oracle. They fought against the False Primarch because if he acutely was the Emperor's son would their astropath-oracles have given them a sign of his coming.
+ Colours are red and green, with gold details.

+ Coat-of-arm is a vajra in gold/yellow on red 

+ Pre-colonial India-ish, 19th-centery orientalism-ish
+ ruling warrior-philosophers, trained in so much more than just war and have a distain for those that fail in their role as rulers, or during war despoil land, water or structure when other methods of war are available

 

House Grigoria - religious, lustful, with both madness and genuine dancing in their eyes, are all truthfully ways to describe House Grigoria. The ecclesiarchy declared the False Primarch an abomination and therefore they will do their best to erase him and his followers from the Galaxy.
+ Russia-ish/slavic-ish, with a focus on the mysticism, religious mysticism, holy fools
+ Each pilot if followed by their personal priest-advisor, with many of them have more than one, and soothsayer, flagellants, holy fools and similar, as part of their entourage.
+ more or less each pilot has his/her own harem, that follow them as part of their camp-followers.
+ Colours are dark red as the main colour, and green as the secondary one. The ones that have more or less directly served under Arch-Cardinal Verashyon paint their helmets white.
+ Coat-of-arm is a white fleur-de-lis with the band in the middle in gold, on the same kind of dark red as the armour. Many have halved their shield (any way the painter wants) and have one of the coat-of-arms Arch-Cardinal Verashyon’s have on his tilting shields on the other half.
- for the converter: lots of chains hanging from their armour; icons, relics, and/or reliquaries hanging from or bolted/bound to the armour/weapons – no need to colour coordinate with the armour colours.
- For the painter: Have a icon painting in Russian style (showing the Emperor, one of His loyal sons, a saint or similar) covering one of the armour plates.
+ House Grigoria is often driven by a religious fever when they fight, many of them suffer from mood swings and/or ritualistic behaviour. If you have seen Horror Express (if not, see it it’s good and it’s in the public domain so you can see it for free) so would both Father Pujardov and Captain Kazan be good examples of personalities that would fit in the House.
 

Ankharström - while some Knight Houses had problem being ordered to fight Space Marines that had honourably fought against the enemies of the Imperium, there was no such qualms for House Ankharström. The house disdain and hate Space Marines, which they believe should never have been allowed to continue recruiting ones the Horus Heresy was over

+ Colours are bright red as main colour, black as secondary.

+ Coat-of-arm is a white anchor on red, with black boards

+19th n early 20th seamen-ish when it comes to culture, clothing and such. Names are Scandinavian/Nordic.

+ the pilots, and other members of the households, go around masked when in public.

 

House LCE - the now long lost Knight House of Venus, serving directly under the Conclave Venutiae, claimed by some to be the forerunners to the modern Guardi Arquebugieri. That Venus saw the conflict as important enough to send their own forces to help stopping the False Primarch is something that bears investigating. Did they know something more than others? I want to know.

+ Colours are bright yellow and black. Mechanical parts are in polished copper.

+ Coat-of-arm is an interlaced pentagram in yellow on black. Each Knight often highly personalise their tilting shield, instead of just showing the House’s coat-of-arm.

+ unknown number, made harder by their tendency to redecorate their Knights after each battle

+ lots of bling, use bits from other GW kits. Should be in other colours than their main ones, they are showing off wealth, not colour coordinating.

+ returning symbols are: three towered castle; hydra; gate; pair of crossed keys; a sword with a burning blad - sometime alone, sometime with an gauntlet holding it by the grip; hexagram; unicursal hexagram [exist as transfers in the HH DA transfer sheet]; lion (any attitudes); lion head (any attitudes); ♀; शुक्र; ॐ श्री शुक्र देवाए नमः।; pentagram of Venus; 

+ specialize in urban and underground fighting - something that often is the same thing on hive worlds like Venus.

+ use arcane technology similar to the elders holo and shadow fields. Some whisper that it is not a question of archeotech or secretive Venus pattern tech but heretical xeno-tech.

 

 

+ Partisan Houses:
House Leonidas - Famed duelists and snipers, who believed that only warriors are true people. They joined the side of the False Primarch more out of their sworn alliance with the Void Barons than anything else.
+ antique Greece-ich, with a focus on the military, warrior and fascist (from our modern point of view) parts. Names are antique Greece-with-near-area-ich and Japanese-ish.
+ coat-of-arms: a red capitalised 'L' on bronze. The L can be in any writing style (gothic, Disney, Times New Roman, etc.) and the bordure of the shield is often decorated, either with a simple red/white/black solid bordure or with some kind of meander pattern in those colours.
+ armour is bronze coloured; markings and such are in red, white or black; any cloth is in red.
- Void Barons symbols are common (and can be in the Void Barons’ colours), showing their relationship and that they have fought together many times.
+ while they might form shield walls against hordes do they prefer to fight as individual warriors.
+ see non-combatants (that are just not too old, young or feeble to fight) as comparable to slaves in worth, and treat them such, in and out of combat.

House Gilliam-Briarbraddock - Following a strict and genuine code of chivalry, found of hunting and romance. It's believed that they sided with the False Primarch because they found the romantic idea of serving under a Primarch too hard to resist.
+ English-ish; names should be long, old fashion and/or a bit silly.
+ Colours are steel grey and white
+ Coat-of-arm is a knight chess piece in white on steel grey

House Feng-Xhu - This Knight House was an unknown House until it was reported as being part of the False Primarch forces. Likely it was a House that was never discovered by the Imperium and it’s first contact with the wider Galaxy was from the forces of the False Primarch, to whom they swore loyalty to. They showed an interesting combination of primitive jury rigging and modifications (of that kind many newly discovered Knight Houses have), and esoteric technology that it's believed was gifted to them by the False Primarch.
+ colours are ochre yellow and green.
+ Coat of arm is a badger rampant on green, with ochre yellow bordure
+ Imperial China-ish

+ symbols like the Silver Star chapter symbol, Caputmori, and Hawaiian/Pacific Island-ish symbols (since the Silver Stars’ culture is based loosely around the Hawaiian/Pacific Island region); checkerd pattern in blue/white, or blue/red are also appear. Beside those are also Chinease/East Asian-ish symbols common

Edited July 11, 2021 by Gamiel

[apologist]

[...]So, from the maps there are three “major” forges involved 

Avarice  ( Morqub Sub; possible Partisan tendencies)

Heliopolian (Heliopolis Sub)

Neo Jove (Moreau Sub) 

which are in a “it’s complicated” state of affairs.

 

Guess there room for a Knight house or two.

 

Absolutely. Sectors are vast regions of space, so entirely justifiable to have Knight Worlds in addition to Cult Mechanicus forgeknights, too. Secondly, the Extinction Armada is a massive force that contains literally thousands of Imeprial Guard Regiments, Skitarii Legions and Ecclesiarchy men-at-arms. That it wouldn't include Knights is almost unfathomable. For that reason, there's plenty of space for Knights on both sides.

 

It's worth noting that the major locations on the maps are principal systems, some of which contain multiple worlds. As with numerous locations, the system is often named after the most important world – though that's not always the case.

 

Ishim's a good example of the former, with Ishim being the name of both the system and main planet.

 

Conversely, the system named Strabo's Star contains no planet of a similar name.

 

 

I'm not certain I'm doing this right but here are some Knight Houses concepts:

 

House Indra - see astropaths as blessed since they have stood before the Emperor and each Knight-pilot (know as a raja in their dialect) is followed by an astropath-oracle. They fought against the False Primarch because if he acutely was the Emperor's son would their astropath-oracles have given them a sign of his coming.

 

House Gilliam - Briarbraddock - Following a strict and genuine code of chivalry, found of hunting and romance. It's believed that they sided with the False Primarch because they found the romantic idea of serving under a Primarch to hard to resist.

 

House Leonidas - Famed duelists and snipers, who believed that only warriors are true people. They joined the side of the False Primarch more out of their sworn alliance with the Void Barons than anything else.

 

House Grigoria - religious, lustful, and with both madness and genuine dancing in their eyes are all truthfully ways to describe House Grigoria. The ecclesiarchy declared the False Primarch an abomination and therefore they will do their best to erase him and his followers from the Galaxy.

 

These all look they'd fit in nicely. Indra and Gilliam particularly catch my imagination; and Grigoria looks like it'd fit in nicely at a future date (keep an eye out for more Ecclesiarchy articles soon – or read about Arch-Cardinal Verashyon and the Scrutoria here, if you can't wait and want a route in for them :))

 

***

 

While we're talking about giant vehicles, Strabo's Star does contain Null: an airless world and soon-to-be location of a massive ruck between the Orthodoxy's Titan Legions – 'Kings in Yellow', Legio Validus and 'Twice-bound' Legio Punica – and the Silver Stars' and allies superheavy divisions. This would be an ideal place for Knights to walk, should you be interested.

 

Similarly, if anyone fancies painting a tank – Epic or 40k scale all suit – in the colours of the Pentarchy or a Partisan Chapter, that'd be brill.

Strabo's Star does, however, contain Null: an airless world and soon-to-be location of a massive ruck between the Orthodoxy's Titan Legions – 'Kings in Yellow', Legio Validus and 'Twice-bound' Legio Punica – and the Silver Stars' and allies superheavy divisions. This would be an ideal

[Gamiel]

Question: how much lore do you want for the Knight Houses? Also do you want colours, symbols and/or suggestions on convertions?

 

I myself will not be able to ad any models so I want to know how free reins I should give people who might do some model work or draw pictures

[Vazzy]

The more the merrier mate! If I’ve learned anything working on this project, Apologist will find a way to work it into the narrative

[space wolf]

Great idea, sir.  Been following your work since your Praetors of Calth on Warseer.  You always come up with really creative ideas and threads...another one well done!