Kill Team - Nachmund - Box and CSM Revealed

[sitnam]

 

 

Am guessing most people would have preferred a smaller bundle with a lower cost

I would prefer the boxes being minus terrain all together.

Having varied terrain is pretty important for KT though

 

I'm feeling a bit of sticker shock, I had assumed this would match the Chalnath box. I didn't realize the terrain differ once between the two boxes. I'll probably wait on this box to show up on third party vendors for the discount

Edited March 7, 2022 by sitnam

[davextreme]

The idea that the missions in the expansions specifically tell you how to set up the terrain that they come with is interesting, though.

 

Another way to go would have been to simply release the rules as PDFs and let the game drive sales of individual squad boxes. Not the GW way, granted.

[helterskelter]

 

 

 

Am guessing most people would have preferred a smaller bundle with a lower cost

I would prefer the boxes being minus terrain all together.

Having varied terrain is pretty important for KT though

 

I'm feeling a bit of sticker shock, I had assumed this would match the Chalnath box. I didn't realize the terrain differ once between the two boxes. I'll probably wait on this box to show up on third party vendors for the discount

20% off should see it at £92

[Cleon]

Is 96 pages a full rulebook or is this just n expansion that needs the main rules?

[firestorm40k]

Is 96 pages a full rulebook or is this just n expansion that needs the main rules?

The latter - its an expansion :)

[Halandaar]

Although there is absolutely value to be had in this box if you want/need all the items it contains, I do find it pretty wild that we have a situation where the expansion costs nearly twice as much as the core game set and 92% of the cost of the "all-in" intro edition that was Octarius. 

 

I think they really need to detach the majority of the terrain from these expansion boxes, like they have with the Kill Team Starter Set; the 2 Kill Teams and a bit of scatter terrain for £65 feels way more like an "expansion" price point than £115, which is more expensive than the biggest starter sets for both 40k and AoS, despite not being actually usable as a way in to playing Kill Team because it doesn't even contain the core rules.

 

Edit - I absolutely get that terrain is a fundamental part of the game, but by not including the Core Rules in the expansion sets they are already assuming you have what you need to play a game of Kill Team, so it's weird that this assumption doesn't extend to terrain as well. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Halandaar

[Lord Marshal]

The arbitrarily chopped up and arguably confusing nature of "What do I actually NEED to start Kill-Team now?" killed it locally. No longer being small-scale 40k was enough to drive most people off in the first place (and for the record I do actually like KT 2.0 as a ruleset) but that didn't necessarily have to be silver bullet.

 

The problem was you had a community who were already largely distasteful but potentially open to the changes, now being told they'd have to buy not only the rulebook, but also 'another' book to run their old, non-Krieg/Ork teams, as well as measuring sticks and cards. At that point you were pretty much paying for the Octarius box anyway, but of course, the whole appeal of Kill-Team was being cheap 'n cheerful with your existing collection, so going from having you buy a £15 softback with all the core rules/teams to expecting you to buy around £70 of stuff before you even knew if you'd like the new ruleset was too far for most people, especially once it became apparent the Compendium teams were deliberately designed with less depth.

 

The 'expansions' make it even worse, because I imagine there were a lot of people who just planned to wait until the KTs they wanted received their box... but on top of getting less stuff than Octarius, you have to buy the rulebook and measuring sticks (because they contain the Barricades, lest you try and just use a tapemeasure) on top of that too. Considering GW like to throw a mini-rulebook into every other boxset for 40k and AoS these days, it's apparent they'd hardly be breaking the bank for Kill-Team if they tossed in the rulebook - even if it's a smaller version, which people would probably prefer anyway.

 

I'm reminded of how Warhammer Underworld's grew pretty damn well over the years, becoming a relatively popular system despite being young, in large part because the low cost of entry (compared to other GW games) meant if your local scene floundered you'd not be too much out of pocket. Of course towards the end of the last season they did the usual thing of being unable to control themselves and cranked the prices and amount of auxiliary products up, meaning it was no longer the game people could just throw a bit of money at every few months and now with Harrowdeep it's pretty much dead.

 

I still don't think GW has realised that people are far less likely to whale for a system that isn't 40k and AoS, and that attempting to pull similar techniques for their non-core games is far more likely to kill them dead almost immediately.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[davextreme]

Has anyone see the USD pricing for Nachmund? I’m also curious about the cost of the individual releases of the Chalnath book and terrain.

[Noserenda]

Yeah, i definitely thought the quarterly expansion boxes would include the rules and gubbins, but then i guess they couldnt sell you another starter box and maximise the buy in to a skirmish system to hundreds of pounds :/ 

Ideally, Rules, Campaign book, Gubbins, 2 kill teams, token scenery in these boxes.

[Halandaar]

The arbitrarily chopped up and arguably confusing nature of "What do I actually NEED to start Kill-Team now?" killed it locally. No longer being small-scale 40k was enough to drive most people off in the first place (and for the record I do actually like KT 2.0 as a ruleset) but that didn't necessarily have to be silver bullet.

 

The problem was you had a community who were already largely distasteful but potentially open to the changes, now being told they'd have to buy not only the rulebook, but also 'another' book to run their old, non-Krieg/Ork teams, as well as measuring sticks and cards. At that point you were pretty much paying for the Octarius box anyway, but of course, the whole appeal of Kill-Team was being cheap 'n cheerful with your existing collection, so going from having you buy a £20 softback to expecting you to buy around £70 of stuff before you even knew if you'd like the new ruleset was too far for most people.

 

The 'expansions' make it even worse, because I imagine there were a lot of people who just planned to wait until the KTs they wanted received their box... but on top of getting less stuff than Octarius, you have to buy the rulebook and measuring sticks on top of that too. Considering GW like to throw a mini-rulebook into every other boxset for 40k and AoS these days, it's apparent they'd hardly be breaking the bank for Kill-Team if they tossed in the rulebook - even if it's a smaller version, which people would probably prefer anyway.

 

I'm reminded of how Warhammer Underworld's grew pretty damn well over the years, becoming a relatively popular system despite being relative young, in large part because the low cost of entry (compared to other GW games) meant if your local scene floundered you'd not be too much out of pocket. Of course towards the end of the last season they did the usual thing of being unable to control themselves and cranked the prices and amount of auxiliary products up, meaning it was no longer the game people could just throw a bit of money at every few months and now Hallowdeep - coupled with Covid - is pretty much dead.

 

I still don't think GW has realised that people are far less likely to whale for a system that isn't 40k and AoS, and that attempting to pull similar techniques for their non-core games is far more likely to kill them dead almost immediately.

 

Right, and on top of this GW have created a weird situation where they can't objectively assess the health of Kill Team as a standalone system via sales because they keep using it as a mechanism to release models 40k players want for their armies, which is artificially inflating the popularity of the boxes.

 

While I'm sure there will be a good amount of genuine interest in Nachmund as a Kill Team expansion, I can't help feeling that a big chunk (maybe even the majority) of the demand is going to be coming from Eldar players who want Corsairs for 40k and have no other means of getting them right now. Even if they aren't buying the box directly themselves, everybody who picks a set of Corsairs up on eBay is generating a sale of Nachmund for GW from somewhere. 

 

Obviously GW is just going to see big sales numbers for Nachmund and think "nice, Kill Team is going well" without having any way of actually knowing if something daft like 75% of the sales are actually to people who aren't playing the game all.

[sitnam]

I'm not sure if the numbers have changed, but didn't a survey a few years ago show that 75% of hobbyists didn't play anyways?

[Dark Shepherd]

They should release the rulebooks from the expansion at the same time as the box so if youre getting a Killteam as a split or ebay etc you have the rules

 

Better yet have the faction rules with the models release 3 months later

[Halandaar]

Better yet have the faction rules with the models release 3 months later

Even better yet, don't have stupid time-gating of standalone releases at all.

 

By all means have everything in a single box at a better price as a limited time "all in" deal, but if you had the Corsairs, Legionaries, Nachmund rulebook and a Killzone bundle of terrain all releasing as separate products on day one, GW would get a much clearer picture of how many sales are genuinely for Kill Team (IE how many copies of the book they sell) versus how many Corsair kits are being bought just for 40k.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Better yet have the faction rules with the models release 3 months later

Even better yet, don't have stupid time-gating of standalone releases at all.

 

By all means have everything in a single box at a better price as a limited time "all in" deal, but if you had the Corsairs, Legionaries, Nachmund rulebook and a Killzone bundle of terrain all releasing as separate products on day one, GW would get a much clearer picture of how many sales are genuinely for Kill Team (IE how many copies of the book they sell) versus how many Corsair kits are being bought just for 40k.

 

 

They do it on purpose, to prop up sales in a quarter. Its no coincidence boxes like this don't see separate stand alone releases for a minimum of three months, if not longer. 

[Antarius]

I get why not getting the rulebook in these boxes is somewhat weird/annoying. Otoh, let’s not pretend we wouldn’t be complaining about being “forced” to buy the book again, if they did include it in these expansion boxes.

[Halandaar]

 

They do it on purpose, to prop up sales in a quarter. Its no coincidence boxes like this don't see separate stand alone releases for a minimum of three months, if not longer. 

 

 

Oh sure, but does it actually boost sales over and above what the standalones would achieve? I'm not convinced.

 

The big boxes like Nachmund and Chalnath are essentially discount bundles. £115 for everything vs £162.50 for the separates in a few months time (based on the pricing of the Chalnath stuff). So yes there is a little bit of incentive for people to buy early if they want everything, but there isn't any real FOMO created by these sets because we know that the products get standalone releases later. You won't miss out on the product if you don't buy straight away, just the discounted price.

 

Anecdotally from this thread alone, for every person who's planning to buy Nachmund there are a couple holding off for the separate kits and a few more who will just pick up the Teams, Terrain and Rulebook from a box-splitter on eBay. So under the current system GW are only selling 2x full Nachmund for (at best) £115, instead of the 6 standalone teams, 2 sets of terrain and 2 rulebooks they could potentially be selling at full price with better margins.

 

 

I get why not getting the rulebook in these boxes is somewhat weird/annoying. Otoh, let’s not pretend we wouldn’t be complaining about being “forced” to buy the book again, if they did include it in these expansion boxes.

 

I think that's price dependent though, right? If the next KT Expansion is the same price as Nachmund but also contains the rulebook then it's just a bonus. Obviously if it contained the core rules and we saw another £10 price hike that would be different.

[Antarius]

 

 

They do it on purpose, to prop up sales in a quarter. Its no coincidence boxes like this don't see separate stand alone releases for a minimum of three months, if not longer. 

 

 

Oh sure, but does it actually boost sales over and above what the standalones would achieve? I'm not convinced.

 

The big boxes like Nachmund and Chalnath are essentially discount bundles. £115 for everything vs £162.50 for the separates in a few months time (based on the pricing of the Chalnath stuff). So yes there is a little bit of incentive for people to buy early if they want everything, but there isn't any real FOMO created by these sets because we know that the products get standalone releases later. You won't miss out on the product if you don't buy straight away, just the discounted price.

 

Anecdotally from this thread alone, for every person who's planning to buy Nachmund there are a couple holding off for the separate kits and a few more who will just pick up the Teams, Terrain and Rulebook from a box-splitter on eBay. So under the current system GW are only selling 2x full Nachmund for (at best) £115, instead of the 6 standalone teams, 2 sets of terrain and 2 rulebooks they could potentially be selling at full price with better margins.

 

 

I get why not getting the rulebook in these boxes is somewhat weird/annoying. Otoh, let’s not pretend we wouldn’t be complaining about being “forced” to buy the book again, if they did include it in these expansion boxes.

 

I think that's price dependent though, right? If the next KT Expansion is the same price as Nachmund but also contains the rulebook then it's just a bonus. Obviously if it contained the core rules and we saw another £10 price hike that would be different.

 

If the internet has taught me anything, it is that people will always complain (especially when it comes to hobby/geek-related interests). People have literally complained about free models.

 

That being said, I find the discussion about what the makeup of these boxes do for the game -and the ability of GW and us to gauge the “health” of the game - quite interesting. There are several points I hadn’t thought about untill you brought them up, some of which make me worry slightly for the game’s future.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Antarius

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah you cant please everyone :D I personally quite like the mini rulebooks you used to get in this kind of box for playing, i dont think ive ever ended up with more than one but id probably just donate em to mates to hook them in :D 

[firestorm40k]

The new terrain rules look fun: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/09/create-cinematic-movie-moments-with-kill-team-nachmunds-interactive-killzone/

[excelite]

It sure sounds fun, but just like the new tyranid infection rule this might turn out quite annoying if you have to roll too much between the turn ;)

[sitnam]

That being said, I find the discussion about what the makeup of these boxes do for the game -and the ability of GW and us to gauge the “health” of the game - quite interesting. There are several points I hadn’t thought about untill you brought them up, some of which make me worry slightly for the game’s future.

Honestly I don't think it's anything specific to this edition of KT, nor is it anything to worry about. KT18 also suffered from the same problems: the box sets were big discounts of terrain and models, and you didn't really know if people were buying for the models or the discount terrain. We also don't know how many people are buying mainstream 40k models specifically for Kill Team: most teams can be built with one or two boxes, and it's easy for people to buy a box of models they are interested in without starting a whole 40k army.

 

The only reliable metric for who is playing the game will likely be tournaments and such. Given 3d printing and book pirating, I don't even think sales of accessories will be very indicative of the games state. Given that it is a squad based game that can be played with models from GW's most popular system, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

[Lord Marshal]

 

That being said, I find the discussion about what the makeup of these boxes do for the game -and the ability of GW and us to gauge the “health” of the game - quite interesting. There are several points I hadn’t thought about untill you brought them up, some of which make me worry slightly for the game’s future.

Honestly I don't think it's anything specific to this edition of KT, nor is it anything to worry about. KT18 also suffered from the same problems: the box sets were big discounts of terrain and models, and you didn't really know if people were buying for the models or the discount terrain. We also don't know how many people are buying mainstream 40k models specifically for Kill Team: most teams can be built with one or two boxes, and it's easy for people to buy a box of models they are interested in without starting a whole 40k army.

 

The only reliable metric for who is playing the game will likely be tournaments and such. Given 3d printing and book pirating, I don't even think sales of accessories will be very indicative of the games state. Given that it is a squad based game that can be played with models from GW's most popular system, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

 

 

I think the difference is that KT18 was pretty much just a smaller scale 40k. Short of the odd early release models like the Kelermorph, the overlap between the two was so considerable that it didn't really matter that much and the only real metric for success were the splat books like Elite.

 

Contrast this with KT21, which is a unique system unto itself. Whilst it's undeniable there's deliberate overlap with new sculpts and units being timegated to KT21 boxsets, none is buying a squad of Plague Marines or Neophyte Hybrids to make a Kill-Team with this time around, instead they're buying the new KT21 teams because those are the only ones that aren't very obvious 'holdovers' until they're inevitably dropped when enough KT21 teams are in circulation. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[sitnam]

none is buying a squad of Plague Marines or Neophyte Hybrids to make a Kill-Team with this time around, instead they're buying the new KT21 teams because those are the only ones that aren't very obvious 'holdovers' until they're inevitably dropped when enough KT21 teams are in circulation.

I only see evidence to the contrary. We dont seem to have a big KT community here on the B&C, but the subreddit (KT is one of the few reasons I still use reddit) is fairly active. I still see Ecclesiarchy teams posted, Scions, Tyranids etc. People are obviously still buying other factions that dont have bespoke teams. I myself bought Plague Marines partially to have another team

 

The presence of White Dwarf and the balance update makes it fairly obvious that they arent going to invalidate any models. The three teams that invalidate the compendium version all share the same models; Wyrmblade and ALL the box teams still have the compedium version available. Why would GW want to discourage the KT from buying their models? Sure, the Pathfinder team has a ton more options, but I think plenty of people interested in Stealth Suits would want the compendium team.

 

I think its more likely we get more WD updates to existing factions once every faction has had its chance via box or WD, then for GW to invalidate whole swathes of their model range.

 

Edit: Removed a snarky sentence

Edited March 9, 2022 by sitnam

[Noserenda]

People are definitely buying new teams to play KT, my most regular opponent picked up some deathwatch and i nearly got some harlequins before i remembered that meant painting harlequins again :D That said theres a few of us in our group who like making little teams like this and we built a whole bunch last edition over its lifespan unrelated to our 40k armies of the time.

[Antarius]

People are definitely buying new teams to play KT, my most regular opponent picked up some deathwatch and i nearly got some harlequins before i remembered that meant painting harlequins again That said theres a few of us in our group who like making little teams like this and we built a whole bunch last edition over its lifespan unrelated to our 40k armies of the time.

That is a huge part of the charm of Kill Team. I mean, I like most of the 40K factions, but I'm never going to make actual armies of most of them. In theory, I could have more or less all of them for Kill Team and not have to buy/paint more models than I would for an Ork army.