SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Taliesin]

Or you just keep the nice limited editions you have and look at them with joy. I have books 1-4 , missed out on 5 and 6 but now got 7, which is the book I wanted the most.

Even if the set is not complete I still like what I have.

[Ubiquitous1984]

Spoiler

A final word from me about Angron … a previous poster raised a very valid point about him being bested by Perty in StD.  Excellent point.  And there is also his defeat to a band of Grey Knights in The Emperors Gift, which is probably even less auspicious considering he had demonic support in that battle.

The guy is not supposed to be invincible and being defeated by a fellow Demi-God after killing a million people during the siege is nothing to moan about!

As a previous poster said, those fans who support a WH faction as if it was a sports team are doing their enjoyment of the setting a disservice viewing it through such a restrictive lens.

 

 

 

 

 

[DarkChaplain]

I could never actually relate to the sportsteam-like cheer. Then, I suppose it could be down to my prefered Lizardmen / "Seraphon" never actually getting a proper novel to themselves, even in AoS, despite basically every other new faction having received at least something here or there. Nobody dares to write Lizardmen or gets a pitch through. So what was there for me to cheer on?

In a sense, I kinda envy people who can genuinely cheer for their favorite faction scoring some goals (especially because their factions do get time in the limelight!). However, I'd still choose the bystander position and being able to cheer for anyone in the long run, so long as they're delivering a cracking narrative getting there.

The funniest part to me over the years on this has been being accused as a fanboy of the perceived "other" side, though :')

[Odd-ad]

I think the reason ADB has been accused of being a Chaos fanboy is just how good he is as an author, coupled with his desire to make the factions he writes for feel like they really, truly, fully believe their own lies. 

So when he writes for Chaos in the HH and delivers some of the most interesting books for the characters involved, people assume it must be favouritism, completely forgetting concepts like the unreliable narrator, or the fact that he writes the loyalists just as well (looking at you Helsreach & Spears). 

Then a book like this comes along, and he writes a more pro-loyalist perspective and some fans act like they lost their minds.

I remember after Betrayer, when some fans acted like Angron was completely in the right in his argument with Guilliman, and said the latter had no response. Then you re-read it and see Guilliman made a perfectly valid point about Angron being stuck in the past and refusing to change or attempt to improve because being bitter about the bad things that happen to you is easier than doing something about it.

Obviously, I'll have to wait until I read my copy tomorrow, but I imagine that will be the sort of thing ADB will have done here: Angron accepted Khorne because it's the easy way out, rather than struggle to be better like Sanguinius. 

[DarkChaplain]

Oh crap, the audiobook's out tomorrow, innit? Guess I'm going to bed late tonight, gotta binge another 3 hours of Warhawk before it drops. First time in a while I've been excited to dig into a Siege novel, that.

[drooling blood]

3 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

In a sense, I kinda envy people who can genuinely cheer for their favorite faction scoring some goals. However, I'd still choose the bystander position,

Unfortunately Chappy. There are no bystanders. Bit like the old Aztecs. You score or die.

AS a novel, I was afraid theyd get repetitive, like the "practice" beast series, which they sortve did. But i mostly put that down to Kyme.

But damn, ADB stuck most of the moments.

ADB was tying up his ends as best he could. Did a damn fine job.

 

Spoiler

The end was a bit naff. Considering how many dropped threads, they couldve done for the shields.

Still think i wouldve preferred Angry Ron, raging away on anything that moved till the end, not even close to the main battle field. Turned up at the end after the gods had left.

Had a moment of lucidity, shrugged his shoulders, shaken his fist and left.

 

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

See's that book has been delivered to store..just 7 more hours until I can grab it after work , taking ALL the willpower to not click those tempting tempting spoilers

[Ubiquitous1984]

3 hours ago, drooling blood said:

Unfortunately Chappy. There are no bystanders. Bit like the old Aztecs. You score or die.

AS a novel, I was afraid theyd get repetitive, like the "practice" beast series, which they sortve did. But i mostly put that down to Kyme.

But damn, ADB stuck most of the moments.

ADB was tying up his ends as best he could. Did a damn fine job.

 

  Hide contents

The end was a bit naff. Considering how many dropped threads, they couldve done for the shields.

Still think i wouldve preferred Angry Ron, raging away on anything that moved till the end, not even close to the main battle field. Turned up at the end after the gods had left.

Had a moment of lucidity, shrugged his shoulders, shaken his fist and left.

 

Spoiler

On the topic of the reveal at the ends that the shields on the Vengeful Spirit are down, and the lack of explanation for this.

I have a feeling that the Garro novella, which will probably be released around Xmas and before book 8 volume 1, will deal with this plotline.  The book can’t just be about Garro Vs Mortarion, surely.  If Garro is involved then all of the random named characters still alive will surely band together for some kind of mission, and infiltrating the VS and damaging it seems a noble death that would nicely wrap up the story of many of these Imperial heroes.  

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Ubiquitous1984

[Matcap86]

38 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

  Hide contents

On the topic of the reveal at the ends that the shields on the Invincible Reason are down, and the lack of explanation for this.

I have a feeling that the Garro novella, which will probably be released around Xmas and before book 8 volume 1, will deal with this plotline.  The book can’t just be about Garro Vs Mortarion, surely.  If Garro is involved then all of the random named characters still alive will surely band together for some kind of mission, and infiltrating the Invincible Reason and damaging it seems a noble death that would nicely wrap up the story of many of these Imperial heroes.  

 

Spoiler

If the Invincible Reason is involved and getting attacked, by loyalists I might have missed a few story beats.   I think you're thinking of the Vengeful Spirit

 

[Fedor]

On Angron
 

Spoiler

It's really the lines directly before the "No" that i have issue with. This is not ADB leaving things subtle to get us all pondering on it, wondering just what he meant...he's all but hammering home that this brief utterance is an utterly craven, pathetic action that will linger with Angron for the rest of his existence...a deep, essential humiliation. It's brutally heavy handed, and i just can't see how it lines up well with his previous characterisation; not as a normal primarch, nor from ADB's own shorts on the daemonic incarnation. It's pretty clear earlier that the nails are not acting as some method of peace allowing him to avoid lucidity on his new incarnation; he's explicitly entirely a tool of Khorne in how much awareness he is allowed.

I don't like all the accusations of deliberate character assassination/faction bias against authors that goes on, but there IS plenty of scope for valid criticism in some of the primarch depictions in this book, and how the daemon primarchs have been portrayed in general. It just tends to get lost in among all the more extreme nonsense.

i certainly didn't want Angron to be invincible, and was happy enough with the way Pert outwitted him in StoD...but i don't want the loyalist primarchs to be "always pull some sort of win out regardless" quip merchants either, which we've come worryingly close to with their confrontations against the traitors over the latter part of the HH in general. What i wanted was an interesting final act for the character, and i don't really think we got that. It's as perfunctory a "he's just a slavering mindless monster now " take as ADB could have gone with. I really expected Angron to be one of the sure things about the book, so maybe it's bothering me more than it usually would. With Vulkan and Magnus, i can already feel myself warming somewhat to the hamminess/author giving his own thoughts on a character through another vibe after a quick reread, but i'm genuinely let down with Angron.

The fight itself being tactically one-sided, with Sanguinius turning out to actually have far superior aerial ability and an Angron that doesn't have the wits not to chase him for large parts, while only able to keep up via his daemonic regeneration, this was actually a bold choice. I can appreciate a rugpull for a big hyped, looming fight like that, though going to the already beyond abused "tank a big hit so i can get in the killing blow" scenario again to set up the end was not convincing. This is purely a nitpick, but having already committed to Angron being far more sluggish in the air, i'd simply have gone with him ending up outmaneuvered. As it is, he really had more than enough time to get a mutual kill once Sanguinius started ripping the nails out, unlike something such as Dorn vs Alpharius, Russ vs Horus or Khan vs Mortarion, where the same schtick felt more earned.

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Fedor

[Ubiquitous1984]

1 hour ago, matcap86 said:

  Hide contents

If the Invincible Reason is involved and getting attacked, by loyalists I might have missed a few story beats.   I think you're thinking of the Vengeful Spirit

 

Lol, thanks.  I’ll edit my original post!

[Ubiquitous1984]

59 minutes ago, Fedor said:

On Angron
 

  Hide contents

It's really the lines directly before the "No" that i have issue with. This is not ADB leaving things subtle to get us all pondering on it, wondering just what he meant...he's all but hammering home that this brief utterance is an utterly craven, pathetic action that will linger with Angron for the rest of his existence...a deep, essential humiliation. It's brutally heavy handed, and i just can't see how it lines up well with his previous characterisation; not as a normal primarch, nor from ADB's own shorts on the daemonic incarnation. It's pretty clear earlier that the nails are not acting as some method of peace allowing him to avoid lucidity on his new incarnation; he's explicitly entirely a tool of Khorne in how much awareness he is allowed.

I don't like all the accusations of deliberate character assassination/faction bias against authors that goes on, but there IS plenty of scope for valid criticism in some of the primarch depictions in this book, and how the daemon primarchs have been portrayed in general. It just tends to get lost in among all the more extreme nonsense.

i certainly didn't want Angron to be invincible, and was happy enough with the way Pert outwitted him in StoD...but i don't want the loyalist primarchs to be "always pull some sort of win out regardless" quip merchants either, which we've come worryingly close to with their confrontations against the traitors over the latter part of the HH in general. What i wanted was an interesting final act for the character, and i don't really think we got that. It's as perfunctory a "he's just a slavering mindless monster now " take as ADB could have gone with. I really expected Angron to be one of the sure things about the book, so maybe it's bothering me more than it usually would. With Vulkan and Magnus, i can already feel myself warming somewhat to the hamminess/author giving his own thoughts on a character through another vibe after a quick reread, but i'm genuinely let down with Angron.

The fight itself being tactically one-sided, with Sanguinius turning out to actually have far superior aerial ability and an Angron that doesn't have the wits not to chase him for large parts, while only able to keep up via his daemonic regeneration, this was actually a bold choice. I can appreciate a rugpull for a big hyped, looming fight like that, though going to the already beyond abused "tank a big hit so i can get in the killing blow" scenario again to set up the end was not convincing. This is purely a nitpick, but having already committed to Angron being far more sluggish in the air, i'd simply have gone with him ending up outmaneuvered. As it is, he really had more than enough time to get a mutual kill once Sanguinius started ripping the nails out, unlike something such as Dorn vs Alpharius, Russ vs Horus or Khan vs Mortarion, where the same schtick felt more earned.

 

Spoiler

Thanks for the considered post, it’s an interesting perspective for sure.  Does it make any difference for your opinion on Angron’s performance that he was against Sangunius?  He was often cited as one of the strongest Primarchs, if not the strongest?

 

[drooling blood]

Personally, i dont give a flying :cuss: what happens to Garro. He can die, getting swamped by cultists, defending Keeler as far as im concerned. 

Or what ever interchangeable DG is hanging round with her.

 

[Roomsky]

We're so close, so close, to having Horus just drop the shields on his own accord. As it should be. As it's been perfectly fine being for over 30 years.

Please Dan, Swallow, McNeill. We're almost there. It doesn't have to be a twist.

[Gongsun Zan]

6 hours ago, Roomsky said:

We're so close, so close, to having Horus just drop the shields on his own accord. As it should be. As it's been perfectly fine being for over 30 years.

Please Dan, Swallow, McNeill. We're almost there. It doesn't have to be a twist.

Spoiler

They way I read it it seemed to me that the shields were dropped in response to Guilliman announcing his imminent arrival.

 

It should be pretty clear to Horus that the ground Siege is over, and he's not getting into the Sanctum in time. Lorgar, Cruze and Omegon never made it to Terra. Alpharius is dead. Fulgrim and Pert are gone. Mortarion is dead. Khârn is dead. The Mournival is 3/4 dead. Zardu Layak is dead. Gendor Skraivok is dead. The only Primarchs he has left at the start of the book are Magnus and Angron, and both are gone by the time the book closes. I suspect the offer to surrender wasn't motivated by any sense of altruism, but because the traitors really wanted the last few defenders to walk away. Any hope of getting through the doors in time are further ruined by the WEs going berserk.  Theres every reason to drop the shields IMO.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Gongsun Zan

[Fedor]

18 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

  Hide contents

Thanks for the considered post, it’s an interesting perspective for sure.  Does it make any difference for your opinion on Angron’s performance that he was against Sangunius?  He was often cited as one of the strongest Primarchs, if not the strongest?

 

Spoiler

I honestly don't mind at all that he lost. I fully expected that since it became obvious they were going to have him be a replacement for Swallow needlessly taking out Ka'bandha. I do tend to feel that the daemon primarchs, if freshly sustained in realspace, should be portrayed as stronger in brute force terms than the normal ones, but not to the extent they can't be possibly defeated without convoluted pre-planning (as Perturabo did).

Rereading the fight a few times without the disappointment in the ending clouding things somewhat, i can appreciate the structure more. Having his wings be the edge that allows an already tired sanguinius to do surprisingly well tactically is effective and appropriate use of existing unique stylistic traits. Angron is appropriately shown to be the stronger of the two when he does get Sanguinius to engage on the ground, wearing him down reasonably quickly with his added daemon primarch physicality and stamina boons.

I also deeply appreciate there being no excessve snappy banter, or marvel quips between the two. This was not the characters, or scene for that. Angron struggling to speak and bring some of his old bitter character out for the one gloating line felt well earned. after a more clinical reread i can see i was harsh in saying there's not much ability to him as a foe in the final fight; the construction of the fight is better than i initially gave it credit for. Gravitas? i would stand by feeling he doesn't bring enough of it to Angron throughout the book. Purely in the fight itself, that is something that i feel Wraight managed better with Khârn vs Sigismund, despite also being well into the Khornate rage phase.

Basically it was the overall use (or lack of use) of Angron as a character that disappointed me. Really disliking the writing directly related to his death is tied into that, not really in the fact that he gets beat.

Overall, i do think it's a good/very good book. It's only really parts of the primarch sections that let it down somewhat for me.

 

[Noserenda]

16 hours ago, Roomsky said:

We're so close, so close, to having Horus just drop the shields on his own accord. As it should be. As it's been perfectly fine being for over 30 years.

Please Dan, Swallow, McNeill. We're almost there. It doesn't have to be a twist.

Eh, ive always read it as ambiguous and basically all the known witnesses die in the fight anyway, it being some rogue action or sabotage rather than Horus is all perfectly valid. Its not like Horus has been actually doing much more than metaphysical warfare from his throne all siege, him getting up and giving orders to the Ships captain would be the change right now, though not out of nowhere as he might have been planning to land.

[Typhonian]

Audible version was released today, can't wait to listen to it.

[grailkeeper]

Spoiler

I always thought Sanguinius broke the Bloodthirsters back over his knee, Bame style.

 

Neither of the fights end like that, although the first is closer.

[StrangerOrders]

Only a bit in but it is already amazing, there is a poetry, sorrow and crushing fatigue in this book. I so very much love it. ADB is really on top of his game here.

Its absolutely marvelous in quality and this coming from a guy that normally doesnt care for prose. 

Spoiler

Also, Vulkan having a personality is very strange. I love the mix of bitten back anger, seething vitriol beneath a sea of stoney calm and just a staggering level of done with everything. Its the first time the image of Vulkan as draconic in the ancient sense is realized for me, although I am torn about him being a literal dragon in the vision, half of me just loves it for all the other half cringes. Still makes me want to see ADB write a Vulkan novel. 

And Land's chapter somehow ended up being the most thrilling and hysterically funny chapter I've read in some time, I actually cackled when he accidentally killed the Imperial Fist and was trying to ramble politeness to his skitarii savior. 

Also, Chaos being fickle is old hat but this is the first time it has felt genuinely hateful and spitefully sadistic to its followers for me. I loved the tone of suffering, humiliation and relentless torment the Chaos PoVs are drenched with. Its a fantastically cruel read. It actually gets hard to see at times in the BEST way possible. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

I need this book. >.<

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

Is there actual historical context to the daemon killed by Amit immediately following its birth into the world? Born the moment a queen died, poisoned by her king. The midnight murder, the war that followed the murder, and the plague that followed the war. It was a pretty big buildup to a daemon that lasted four seconds in reality

Edited September 5, 2022 by TheRealMcCagh

[ArielRSA]

This is the first Heresy book I've read in years and I really enjoyed it. Felt the characters and action were great and can't wait for the finale. Hopefully Abnett and BL stick the landing.

I also feel that Angron's interaction with Sanguinius isn't out of character since he was a deeply damaged human and that followed him into demonhood

I've just got a couple questions:

Spoiler

1. Was the Khârn on the Conqueror a wraith like the Lotarra we follow in the book?

2. Was this the first time we've seen traitor astartes react to the death of their primarch similar to how Blood Angels will later?

3. This is clearly not a permanent death for Angron and Magnus right?

 

[Nagashsnee]

Spoiler

1) I would say yes he is a wrath, put there to make us believe its the real lotara, sneakt author is sneaky.

2) No the white scars do it when the Khan goes down, the DG on the other hand react the opposite way and just become stunned/shocked. 

3) No and no, they are deamons and can no longer truly die, tho you could argue that Angron and Magnus died the moment they become deamons thats a  whole other can of worms. 

 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I'm so pleased that people are enjoying this book!  40klore really had me doubting myself, but every good review on here and on fb is renewing my faith in the fanbase!