Arkhanist Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) The point of humanity in the 40k setting is that science no longer exists in any meaningful sense. They are incapable of learning from mistakes, correcting them and coming up with something better, as that's heresy and the mechanicum will come for you. All technology comes from handed-down and repurposed STCs, which are basically low tech colony supplies; robust, simple to make. The rhino was originally a low tech, really reliable, all terrain civilian vehicle. And they went and got a version with guns on it and called it a tank. Imagine you ended up with the real life M3 Grant as the one tank you were allowed to have. The turret gun is high velocity small calibre gun to take on other tanks, the big gun a limited traverse explosive shell designed to take on pillboxes and entrenched positions. (a US tank supplied to the UK early WWII. US turreted ones were the M3 Lee, british turret, the M3 Grant) The turret gun is too small calibre to actually do anything useful, and pillboxes aren't much of a threat in the desert, yet that's exactly the situation the M3 Grant found itself in in North Africa. And yet, they made it work. It had decent armour for its time, was reliable, and the 75mm gun was a lot heavier than anything else the Brits had. It was however, very vulnerable to the 88mm flak cannon repurposed as an anti-tank gun, as it couldn't go hull down; or indeed, fire to its left. Now, it turns out there's a whole priesthood responsible for making them, from a design effectively handed down by god. Any change to it or improvements are heresy and will get you executed. The M3 Grant is the best tank you will *ever* have - until someone finds another god-box design that says you're allowed to put some machine guns instead of the turret gun, so you're allowed that as a variant. But you are not allowed to improve it, learn from experience or even understand how it works - just mindless repetition of the sacred ritual. Put a glacis plate on it, or learn that putting big holes in your front armour for vision slits or hull mounted guns is a bad idea - verboten. Or that being able to depress the main gun is important. Tractors and trucks repurposed as tanks, and nobody can ever make improvements. No gow survive the galaxy trying to kill you. Here, have some more barely trained grunts with a flashlight and a few thousand M3 Grants, because that's the best we can do, until the knowledge gets so corrupted we forget how or we no longer have the tech base to even make that, and we have to go back to building the Bob Semple, a literal tractor with corrugated iron sheeting bolted on. Oh, and the gun size vs turret is down to heroic scale - they're always 10 times bigger than any real gun would be. Real tanks, we learned you should put all the guns on the turret so you don't weaken your armour and have 360 degree fire and need less crew. And you end up with the primaris repulsor and everyone hates it. Edited May 8, 2022 by Arkhanist Gederas, Marshal Mittens, aa.logan and 12 others 15 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 I'm sorry, but rule of cool trumps realism in 40K and I love the anachronistic design of a lot of the tanks, in particular 30K. Much more sleek and "retro", more techy. In comparison, the "new" stuff looks clunky and meh, and when I say "new" I mean the Primaris shlock. Speaking of which, I know it will happen but I'd rather they didn't port these over to 40K. Keep them in the past where most of them died in a fiery wreck founding what we know of as the Imperium in the current setting. 01RTB01, Cpt_Reaper, skylerboodie and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mittens Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) On a note, sloped armor is not always better. It gives you more protection, generally, but also massively cuts down on the avaliable internal space in the tank. A lot of modern tanks don't use sloped armor, or don't use it everywhere, for this and other reasons. Edited May 9, 2022 by Marshall Mittens Evil Eye and Iron Father Ferrum 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spessmarine Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 I'm sorry, but rule of cool trumps realism in 40K and I love the anachronistic design of a lot of the tanks, in particular 30K. Much more sleek and "retro", more techy. In comparison, the "new" stuff looks clunky and meh, and when I say "new" I mean the Primaris shlock. Speaking of which, I know it will happen but I'd rather they didn't port these over to 40K. Keep them in the past where most of them died in a fiery wreck founding what we know of as the Imperium in the current setting. Anachronistic is Warhammer, and I love that about it DuskRaider and Marshal Mittens 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Eye Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 The point of humanity in the 40k setting is that science no longer exists in any meaningful sense. They are incapable of learning from mistakes, correcting them and coming up with something better, as that's heresy and the mechanicum will come for you. All technology comes from handed-down and repurposed STCs, which are basically low tech colony supplies; robust, simple to make. The rhino was originally a low tech, really reliable, all terrain civilian vehicle. And they went and got a version with guns on it and called it a tank. Imagine you ended up with the real life M3 Grant as the one tank you were allowed to have. The turret gun is high velocity small calibre gun to take on other tanks, the big gun a limited traverse explosive shell designed to take on pillboxes and entrenched positions. (a US tank supplied to the UK early WWII. US turreted ones were the M3 Lee, british turret, the M3 Grant) The turret gun is too small calibre to actually do anything useful, and pillboxes aren't much of a threat in the desert, yet that's exactly the situation the M3 Grant found itself in in North Africa. And yet, they made it work. It had decent armour for its time, was reliable, and the 75mm gun was a lot heavier than anything else the Brits had. It was however, very vulnerable to the 88mm flak cannon repurposed as an anti-tank gun, as it couldn't go hull down; or indeed, fire to its left. Now, it turns out there's a whole priesthood responsible for making them, from a design effectively handed down by god. Any change to it or improvements are heresy and will get you executed. The M3 Grant is the best tank you will *ever* have - until someone finds another god-box design that says you're allowed to put some machine guns instead of the turret gun, so you're allowed that as a variant. But you are not allowed to improve it, learn from experience or even understand how it works - just mindless repetition of the sacred ritual. Put a glacis plate on it, or learn that putting big holes in your front armour for vision slits or hull mounted guns is a bad idea - verboten. Or that being able to depress the main gun is important. Tractors and trucks repurposed as tanks, and nobody can ever make improvements. No gow survive the galaxy trying to kill you. Here, have some more barely trained grunts with a flashlight and a few thousand M3 Grants, because that's the best we can do, until the knowledge gets so corrupted we forget how or we no longer have the tech base to even make that, and we have to go back to building the Bob Semple, a literal tractor with corrugated iron sheeting bolted on. Oh, and the gun size vs turret is down to heroic scale - they're always 10 times bigger than any real gun would be. Real tanks, we learned you should put all the guns on the turret so you don't weaken your armour and have 360 degree fire and need less crew. And you end up with the primaris repulsor and everyone hates it. Couldn't have put it better myself. I actually went to the trouble to convert a LR Exterminator out of a Chimera and chibi Somura tank (as a weird variant STC pattern) except even MORE anachronistic, featuring the old "main gun in the hull, secondary gun in the turret" doozy. MithrilForge, Mechanicus Tech-Support and 1ncarnadine 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 So.... what I have learned from reading the last few pages, is that the hovering Repulsors are the most realistic Imperium tanks? BitsHammer, Cactus, Astartes Consul and 5 others 8 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 It was never my intent to create a tangent on tank design in this thread -- I was merely expressing my dislike of the Kratos' visual design based on my own personal biases. I'm going to write out a new thread in the AMICUS AEDES for those interested in pursuing the conversation further. For the rest, let's allow the discussion to return to Kratos instead of tank design in general. Brother Sergeant Tiberius, lansalt, Cyrox and 4 others 7 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UtariOnzo Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 Personally, I kinda like it looks wise, but unsure if I’ll eventually run it in an Ironwing force I’ll eventually work towards Marshal Mittens 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 Between book spoilers and tank design the forum has descended. Can we move on yet folks? Mechanicus Tech-Support and DuskRaider 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 I'm going to make a pretty cool Ironwing centerpiece tank with it. Word Bearers this will also be great with. All sorts of decals to put on from the transfer sheet. Marshal Mittens 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Not gonna bother making some wall of text reply to a dozen posts of such mixed quality so broadly...Sliding scale is exactly right, as mentioned there are plenty of deign niggles on Imperial tanks, thats a design choice, like i mentioned, but it IS a sliding scale and the Kratos hull is frankly garbage. If it was the same/similar to the fairly excellent Sicarian itd be fine for example, or the Falchion or any of the other marine proper tanks. It just feels like its verging on the "roll the master in a pile of guns" too that the 40k tanks fall foul of. The turret is a problem because even a space marine cant do half a dozen jobs at once, trying to command the tank, watch whats going on, stay coordinated with the rest of the force, select and load rounds for the battle cannon, aim and fire the battle cannon and also be running the coax. Its just a poor design, hell cheat like the Russ and have the gun vanish as it enters the hull add a gunners hatch and it would look better. Sponsons suck for a broad variety of reasons, they are unarmoured, they are insanely vulnerable in general with exposed servos and cables; if you are moving through any kind of tight rough terrain they literally hook on things and eventually tear off, even on things the rest of the tank will plow right through normally; they have super limited fields of fire compared to a turret or even hull mounted gun; if they arent energy weapons you cant reload them without getting out of the tank, same for clearing jams and last of all they are rarely controlled by servitors so they need a whole 'nother gunner on board, we know this because there are rules for servitor guns, they dont work like normal gunners ;) and the vast majority of sponson'ed marine vehicles do not have this rule.I mean, if you like it, thats fine, but you arent going to convince me suspension of disbelief is important, or would you be ok if i try to run an Eldar on a 60mm base as a dreadnought? Or say my topless Custodes minis still get their full armour save, its off, it feels bad. MithrilForge 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) Not gonna bother making some wall of text reply to a dozen posts of such mixed quality so broadly... Sliding scale is exactly right, as mentioned there are plenty of deign niggles on Imperial tanks, thats a design choice, like i mentioned, but it IS a sliding scale and the Kratos hull is frankly garbage. If it was the same/similar to the fairly excellent Sicarian itd be fine for example, or the Falchion or any of the other marine proper tanks. It just feels like its verging on the "roll the master in a pile of guns" too that the 40k tanks fall foul of. The turret is a problem because even a space marine cant do half a dozen jobs at once, trying to command the tank, watch whats going on, stay coordinated with the rest of the force, select and load rounds for the battle cannon, aim and fire the battle cannon and also be running the coax. Its just a poor design, hell cheat like the Russ and have the gun vanish as it enters the hull add a gunners hatch and it would look better. Sponsons suck for a broad variety of reasons, they are unarmoured, they are insanely vulnerable in general with exposed servos and cables; if you are moving through any kind of tight rough terrain they literally hook on things and eventually tear off, even on things the rest of the tank will plow right through normally; they have super limited fields of fire compared to a turret or even hull mounted gun; if they arent energy weapons you cant reload them without getting out of the tank, same for clearing jams and last of all they are rarely controlled by servitors so they need a whole 'nother gunner on board, we know this because there are rules for servitor guns, they dont work like normal gunners and the vast majority of sponson'ed marine vehicles do not have this rule. I mean, if you like it, thats fine, but you arent going to convince me suspension of disbelief is important, or would you be ok if i try to run an Eldar on a 60mm base as a dreadnought? Or say my topless Custodes minis still get their full armour save, its off, it feels bad. Is it beneath you to respond to everyone?... I hope you are well because your tone is very off. Edited May 9, 2022 by 01RTB01 Oxydo and Arbedark 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 I dont get it, I admit. I think it looks great, in line with the other HH tanks? 01RTB01, Fire Golem, Rejects of Anvilus and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) I dont get it, I admit. I think it looks great, in line with the other HH tanks? It does look great and it fits the general theme of HH Astartes armoured vehicles. For some reason a simple observation has turned into a serious debate about the real world functionality of a tank that was created for a setting 28,000 years in the future give or take while using the aesthetics of early-20th century tanks. It's a ridiculous topic in the first place and is only serving to derail the thread. Edited May 9, 2022 by DuskRaider quasistellar, BLACK BLŒ FLY, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie40K Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 In my opinion, awesome model. I really like this tank a lot. I’ll be getting a few of them. Hopefully the price isn’t too outrageous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
01RTB01 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 I'm tempted to replace the choom with sonic weapons.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) Yeah the ignorance of the forge world sculptors in particular regards tank design these days is particularly depressing given how forge world started and its a definitely turn off. Its particularly frustrating here because its so close to being decent, but the one man turret with a fixed main gun, sponsons (particularly the nipple sponsons) and the horrific shot trap of what i presume to be the sponson gunners spot next to the driver. Ick. Like, sponson guns i can kinda tolerate despite how awful they are, as an aesthetic choice but it does wreck verisimilitude to be told this tank has no design flaws and near impervious armour when it so obviously does not. You haven't seen British tank designs from before 1944, I see Yeah youll notice they immediately dropped side sponson guns from everything when they were expected to drive over anything but a shelled flat wasteland, because they are a liability with basically no advantages. And moved them into silly little extra turrets that had no place on any tank whatsoever while keeping all the shot traps and even inventing new ones. When they weren't trying to kill the drivers or work the poor sods in the turret to death. Edited May 9, 2022 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 I’m really diggin some of these 30k tanks. I’ve seen some other frater talking about use in 40K. Do we know if we will be able to use some for traitor legions? They seem to keep old wargwar, lore wise, and would love some of these for my Black Legion Current CSM don't even have access to the same existing units in the current 40K FW book (sicaran variants) the loyalists do for example. I think HH tanks will likely move across at some point since they are plastic now and GW is all about the cross sell these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silas7 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 I do quite like this tank but the lack of up/down traversal on the bolter turrets bothers me. I could argue during the heresy there were probably so many targets it would be impossible to miss but it just seems to stick out compared to the other weapons to me for that reason. I prefer the Sicarian but I would also like to see this painted in Carcharodons livery. The main cannon should be centered as well, right where the stubber is actually. Maybe won't look as bad with a 360 but still bugs me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 look bad and kratos don't belong in the same sentence Sword Brother Adelard and FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silas7 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 look bad and kratos don't belong in the same sentence Don't get me wrong I like the tank; just sharing a small nitpick in a similar vein as my first quote. What I really want to see is how a Sicaran battle turret looks on a Kratos body. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Most likely, very, very small. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
derLumpi Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) Do we have some size comparison pictures? How big is it compared to existing tanks? Edited May 9, 2022 by derLumpi Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) Skip to 2:42 for a shot near a Rhino. Edited May 9, 2022 by Slips Cyrox, CaptainFrederickson, Magos Takatus and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcomet Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 (edited) All those Volkte options is making me have feelings. And that ram. That is a biggin Edited May 9, 2022 by Redcomet Oxydo and Fire Golem 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/374115-hh-kratos-heavy-assault-tank/page/3/#findComment-5825472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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