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The Hekatonystika: Ist Legion Tactica


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Posted (edited)

Discussion topic with regards to the Dark Angels in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited by Slips
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Posted (edited)

Alright, I'll get this started with some takes:

 

None of our Rites of War grant the Line subtype, so I'm not super impressed with their abilities to make things Troops. I want to try them all, but I'm also very much eyeing the generic RoWs.

 

The Lion's fine. I'm glad his Warlord Trait got changed from +1 combat res to Crusader. I love Corswain and Marduk Sedras. Corswain probably won't win every 1st-Captain duel, but the people he loses to are more expensive (and he could still win with above-average dice). Marduk's ability to hand out Preferred Enemy is amazing, even if his WL trait is bad.

 

The special units are all amazing imo. I am super unimpressed with Stasis Missiles right now (it has to wound at S4 AND the unit has to fail LD?), but I want an outflanking Ravenwing RoW plasma repeater tactical support squad. Maybe put some plasma burners in a veteran squad.

 

I'm not sure I'll ever get around to using our Consul. He's fine, but he's not the force multiplier I'm usually looking for in the HQ slot.

Edited by Erren
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I think the Consul is pretty good. WS6, LD10 and Stubborn are all good things in the new addition especially as he also comes stock with a Terranic Greatsword. Means that you can have quite a lot of Stubborn if you do something like put him with an assault squad. I'm thinking something like Delegatus, Herald and Deathwing Companions as one unit, a unit of Cenobium, a Paladin leading some assault marines or despoilers (or Terminators actually), and a unit or two of tacticals. You've then got quite a few units that are Stubborn or Fearless, including the tacticals if they are near an objective. I think that will be quite important if you face a lot of units that cause fear or have pinning.
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Honestly, I am just happy that the Eskaton RoW now does not require me to use vehicles. That way I can use jump-pack destroyers, don't have to shell out heaps of points for land raiders for the Interemptors (who seem to also be able to take Rhinos now!) AND Marduk Sedras doesn't lose out on Ancient of War.

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Posted (edited)

Oh yes, the fact that Eskaton doesn't require vehicles and Marduk's ability working keven when embarked on transport, if I understand it correctly, makes me sooo happy.

 

The fact that that Interemptors are not line in their RoW is a bummer, but not the end of the world. Stasis missiles are disappointing though

 

Eskaton RoW looks like fun. Honestly I didn't even check the other RoWs properly, I'm just set completely on Dreadwing, so really happy I'll be actually able to play it this time :D (I only have a small DA force without vehicles for ZM games, so I couldn't even play it before... that sucked)

 

Oh right, interemptors can take rhinos! Now I just have to buy some :D

Edited by Balerion84
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Yes the Eskaton is a lot more playable now.

 

The changes to Interemptors are really good I think. They've gone from a very narrowly focused unit that was all about alpha striking 2+ save marines (or high value power armour in cover) to a much more versatile unit. Obviously they've now got templates with breaching 4+, but they were almost always wounding on a 4+ anyway so they've not lost out to the plasma changes in the way other plasma weapons have. Then they have 2 attacks, a bolt pistol giving them an extra attack, counter attack, rad grenades and the Sergeant can take artificer. And as mentioned can take Rhinos as dedicated. They still don't hit as hard in combat as Destroyers as they can't take power weapons of any sort. But at least they should be better placed to see off tacticals and the like, instead of getting tied up by them, and they can hurt higher toughness stuff in a way they couldn't before. I'm very pleased about this change as they're not such a one trick pony like they used to be.

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Definitely happy to see destroyers with jump packs available to Eskaton Imperative now, although I've already made quite a few without them, so I'll at least entertain taking some in Rhinos or Land Raiders as well.

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Im mostly happy the Unbroken Vow seems to onpy give the opponent extra vp at the end of the gamr instead of every game turn. Makes it no longer effectively an auto lose unless you stomp.
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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2022 at 8:54 AM, Erren said:

None of our Rites of War grant the Line subtype, so I'm not super impressed with their abilities to make things Troops. I want to try them all, but I'm also very much eyeing the generic RoWs.

 

Brother Erren, thanks for pointing this out.  I didn't notice that.  Compared to, say, your DA Ironwing Predators-as-Troops RoW, the equivalent universal Armoured Breakthrough RoW not only gives the Line subtype, but goes out of its way to say the Armoured Breakthrough Predators are Scoring and Denial Units despite Vehicles not being allowed as such normally.

Edit - the above was based on the Playtest 3 draft, in the final version, they removed the Counts-As-Line benefit from Predators in the standard Armoured Breakthrough RoW as well!  Meanwhile, the Contemptor Dreads RoW kept theirs.  Very interesting, but correcting this for posterity.

 

This makes a huge difference.  I owe you for preventing me from making a bad decision, thanks for that.

Edited by N1SB
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  • 4 weeks later...

I will echo the comments that our rites not making the troops line makes them much harder to want to take. Obviously the other effects of the rites are still good. But with how little scoring units there are now, I'm finding it hard to take the special units over the 3-4 line squads I feel compelled to take.

Edited by ShadowCore67
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It seems to me that some of the DA rites are quite good for allied detachments - you do have to take a MotL HQ over a more specialized one, but a barebones Delegatus is cheap and taking options as troops lets you bypass the normal slot restrictions for allies.

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Allies are an interesting idea. Dreadwing x Death Guard Creeping Death would be nasty, and I'd argue that if any loyalist Death Guard were to team up with Dreadwing, it's exactly what it would look like. The more I think about it, the more I like it. Whether or not you use Creeping Death, Deathguard gets around the problem Eskaton Imperative causes with regard to movement (since, as I'm reading it, everything outside a deployment zone is difficult terrain but neither Dreadwing nor the rite give you a way of ignoring the resulting penalties to movement). Death Guard tacticals can scoot onto an objective and hold it while everyone else is fumbling around in the flames.

Iron Hands would also work with their grav guns.

On the topic of line troops, though, I don't think there's much we can do in most of the rites. Deathwing and Stormwing are easy, but besides the obvious recon and maybe (infiltrating) Despoilers for Firewing, I think Tacticals may be the best bet for Dreadwing simply because the tacs can just stay still and Fury. You could also do recon squads to infiltrate onto points you want to take, but that doesn't really feel right to me for Dreadwing.

I'm also not totally clear on the Unbroken Vow. The Vets and Terminators get Heart of the Legion but they don't get Line. So they want to be on objectives/chasing other people off objectives, but they can't actually hold objectives themselves?

Edited by Uberlord Gendo
Re-re-reread the rules.
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12 hours ago, Uberlord Gendo said:

Allies are an interesting idea. Dreadwing x Death Guard Creeping Death would be nasty, and I'd argue that if any loyalist Death Guard were to team up with Dreadwing, it's exactly what it would look like. The more I think about it, the more I like it. Whether or not you use Creeping Death, Deathguard gets around the problem Eskaton Imperative causes with regard to movement (since, as I'm reading it, everything outside a deployment zone is difficult terrain but neither Dreadwing nor the rite give you a way of ignoring the resulting penalties to movement). Death Guard tacticals can scoot onto an objective and hold it while everyone else is fumbling around in the flames.

Iron Hands would also work with their grav guns.

On the topic of line troops, though, I don't think there's much we can do in most of the rites. Deathwing and Stormwing are easy, but besides the obvious recon and maybe (infiltrating) Despoilers for Firewing, I think Tacticals may be the best bet for Dreadwing simply because the tacs can just stay still and Fury. You could also do recon squads to infiltrate onto points you want to take, but that doesn't really feel right to me for Dreadwing.

I'm also not totally clear on the Unbroken Vow. The Vets and Terminators get Heart of the Legion but they don't get Line. So they want to be on objectives/chasing other people off objectives, but they can't actually hold objectives themselves?

Yeah, Unbroken Vow is an odd one. Vets and terminators want to be near objectives to defend them but can't hold them. Which just circles back to my point that you're going to want 3-4 line troops. Meaning you can only use 2-3 slots to take vets and terminators, and the rest will end up being elites anyways.

Edited by ShadowCore67
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My thoughts on the PDF units: 

Redloss - Went up 20 points but his axe got A LOT better. Lost his master of destruction trait for our +1 LD trait. I'm fine with this as his warlord trait contradicted him being a melee brawler. Pulse pistol and shard-bolt pistol stayed the same. Shredder carbine gained ignores cover and pinning. Shredder is best for shooting but it's not a pistol so if you take it you won't get an extra attack, which with his new axe is a bummer.

Holguin - Suffered some nerfs but got a lot cheaper so I guess it's okay. Lost an attack, his FNP doesn't get better as he's wounded, and he can't reroll them. He's essentially just a cataphractii praetor with 5+ FNP and his sword stayed the same. Also got our +1 LD trait.

Deathing Terminator Companions - Not much to say here. Basically what we expected.

Firewing Cabal - Lost hatred, scout and character rules. Gained chosen warriors, outflank, and marked for death. Grenade launcher option was replaced with missile launcher option.  Their special jump packs were changed to just be a special rule that gives them 4+ shrouded on the turn they come from reserves. That's better for one turn but losing a 5+ cover save and no overwatch stinks. Charge-blade's special rule is much better but it can only be activated once per game. They still don't have artificer armor. Overall a nerf imo considering they're still 150 points.

Excindio - Went up 50 points. Gained +2 move, +1 WS, +1 Str, +1 attack, 2+ armor. Gained IWND 4+. All of it's special weapons stayed the same or got worse without getting cheaper. It main melee weapon technically got worse as it used to have Dreadnought CCs, which now have brutal 3, but it's new weapons only have brutal 2. Manipulator arms lost unwieldy, shred, and severing cut, but gained lance. It's explosion rules for stronger. Unsure of what else has changed with all the mechanicum stuff. But it does have rage 2 and hatred. Overall I'd say it's probably a nerf. The stats increases don't justify the worse weapons and increase cost. The only way I could see myself taking this is putting it in a drop pod and letting it rampage through the enemy lines. 

 

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Redloss seems really nice to me. Not a must-have, but if you wanted to kitbash one (or already did), there's no reason not to use him occasionally.

Holguin's nice. I'll try him out sometime since his loadout matches the FW model.

Deathwing Terminator Companions do *not* seem worth the points increase over power-armoured ones.

Firewing Cabal is ok, but I don't see myself converting them up without the ability to make them scoring (1E Firewing Rite) or bring more than 3.

Excindio is SO EXPENSIVE. Compared to a 2DCCW Contemptor, I don't see what is supposed to justify the extra cost. It's better than a Contemptor certainly, but everyone any their brother is going to pack a way to take out 1-2 Contemptors per game, and the Excindio isn't that much harder to kill. Actually, I can't find any instant-death prevention at all, so watch out for Murderous Strike, I guess!

The Exemplary Battle Order of the Broken Claws I don't get. They're supposed to be specialized against dreadnoughts/monsters, but they don't seem to be any better at it than regular Knights with TH and Hunters of Beasts.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Anyone having success with bikes now? Losing the added toughness and the extra armour for jetbikes is rough. Haven't had time to play so I'm looking for any actual game play insight.

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Also Interested to know how Bikes and Jet Bikes are doing in 2.0. I have been writing lists for a Seekers Arrow and Sky Hunter Phalanx RoW but can't nail anything down due to lack of battlefield data. Not really keen on investing in a lot of Bikes/Jet bikes if they are straight up trash tier. 

The reduction of toughness on both and the reduction of Armor on the Jet bikes looks pretty bad. Jet bikes especially so as they can no longer gain a jink save and due to having the antigrav sub-type can never gain access to cover saves. They can get shrouded when running, however, in my opinion this unit wants to shoot as often as it can so you won't be running unless you're trying to reposition or doing a melta suicide run. 

Outriders look better than Jet bikes. They can access cover saves as well as Shrouded and have the Scout USR. They have fantastic weapon options which gives them a lot of utility. They are fragile but with Scout and the ability to re-roll failed Shrouded rolls from Ravenwing sub-type I think they can be an excellent alpha strike/pressure unit. I believe Melee orientated is the way to go for large units as they are too fragile to not be in combat. Smaller units with a couple of twin linked meltas are a great distraction/pressure unit. 

Command squads on bikes appear to be the best bike unit in the game. M14 WS5 W2 Sv2+ all for 28pts. The don't gain outflank or hit and run but do gain Cavalry and Skirmish sub-types. 3inch coherency with +1 to cover saves and a shrouded reroll(Ravenwing) is very nice. In regards to jet bikes, for some reason they are 20pts more than a bike which is crazy as you are only paying for the extra 2inch movement. There is no mention in the Command squad rules about being able to swap the weapons on the bikes/Jet bikes which is baffling. Even if you could outfit the jet bikes on your command squad with Multimeltas it still wouldn't be worth the 30pts for the Jet bike.

 

My rough idea for a fluffy Ravenwing list is,

HQ - praetor - Bike

HQ - Command Squad - Bikes 

HQ - Librarian - Bike, Telepathy (shut down reactions)

ELITE - Techamrine x2 - Bike - Augury scanner - magna combi

TROOPS  - 6x Outriders - 2x TL Melta

TROOPS  - 6x Outriders - 2x TL melta

TROOPS  - 9x Outriders CC weaqpons

TROOPS  - 3x Jetbikes - Multimelta

TROOPS  - 3x Jetbikes 3x Volkite

TROOPS  - 3x Jetbikes 3x Volkite 

FAST ATTACK - 3x Javelins - Lascannons 

FAST ATTACK - 3x Javelins - Lascannons

FAST ATTACK - 3x Javelins - Lascannons

Sprinkle whichever weapons on your units as you please. Tempted to drop a unit of Javelins and put in a Storm eagle full of Cenobium or Deathwing Termies.

This is the basic core I was thinking. Couple of rush units to provide pressure, some harassing units and and a solid mobile shooting platform. The coolest thing about an all cavalry army is that it cannot be pinned! I know there is no line units in the list but I wanted a full Bike army. It kinda blows that the Seekers Arrow RoW doesn't make bikes troops. 

If anyone has any feedback on Outriders and/or Jet bikes please let us know as I think they would be a fun army to play. 

Edited by Ramza
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44 minutes ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

question is why take ravenwing row over generic biker row? than u have line units.

Which RoW are you referring to? Looking at Liber there is no generic RoW for bikes unless I have completely missed something?

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6 hours ago, Ramza said:

Also Interested to know how Bikes and Jet Bikes are doing in 2.0. I have been writing lists for a Seekers Arrow and Sky Hunter Phalanx RoW but can't nail anything down due to lack of battlefield data. Not really keen on investing in a lot of Bikes/Jet bikes if they are straight up trash tier. 

The reduction of toughness on both and the reduction of Armor on the Jet bikes looks pretty bad. Jet bikes especially so as they can no longer gain a jink save and due to having the antigrav sub-type can never gain access to cover saves. They can get shrouded when running, however, in my opinion this unit wants to shoot as often as it can so you won't be running unless you're trying to reposition or doing a melta suicide run. 

Outriders look better than Jet bikes. They can access cover saves as well as Shrouded and have the Scout USR. They have fantastic weapon options which gives them a lot of utility. They are fragile but with Scout and the ability to re-roll failed Shrouded rolls from Ravenwing sub-type I think they can be an excellent alpha strike/pressure unit. I believe Melee orientated is the way to go for large units as they are too fragile to not be in combat. Smaller units with a couple of twin linked meltas are a great distraction/pressure unit. 

Command squads on bikes appear to be the best bike unit in the game. M14 WS5 W2 Sv2+ all for 28pts. The don't gain outflank or hit and run but do gain Cavalry and Skirmish sub-types. 3inch coherency with +1 to cover saves and a shrouded reroll(Ravenwing) is very nice. In regards to jet bikes, for some reason they are 20pts more than a bike which is crazy as you are only paying for the extra 2inch movement. There is no mention in the Command squad rules about being able to swap the weapons on the bikes/Jet bikes which is baffling. Even if you could outfit the jet bikes on your command squad with Multimeltas it still wouldn't be worth the 30pts for the Jet bike.

 

My rough idea for a fluffy Ravenwing list is,

HQ - praetor - Bike

HQ - Command Squad - Bikes 

HQ - Librarian - Bike, Telepathy (shut down reactions)

ELITE - Techamrine x2 - Bike - Augury scanner - magna combi

TROOPS  - 6x Outriders - 2x TL Melta

TROOPS  - 6x Outriders - 2x TL melta

TROOPS  - 9x Outriders CC weaqpons

TROOPS  - 3x Jetbikes - Multimelta

TROOPS  - 3x Jetbikes 3x Volkite

TROOPS  - 3x Jetbikes 3x Volkite 

FAST ATTACK - 3x Javelins - Lascannons 

FAST ATTACK - 3x Javelins - Lascannons

FAST ATTACK - 3x Javelins - Lascannons

Sprinkle whichever weapons on your units as you please. Tempted to drop a unit of Javelins and put in a Storm eagle full of Cenobium or Deathwing Termies.

This is the basic core I was thinking. Couple of rush units to provide pressure, some harassing units and and a solid mobile shooting platform. The coolest thing about an all cavalry army is that it cannot be pinned! I know there is no line units in the list but I wanted a full Bike army. It kinda blows that the Seekers Arrow RoW doesn't make bikes troops. 

If anyone has any feedback on Outriders and/or Jet bikes please let us know as I think they would be a fun army to play. 

Attack bikes being so much more costly after the nerf seems odd as well.

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I haven’t thought too much about Seeker’s Arrow since it doesn’t really work with my existing collection, but at first glance it looks really hard to get much benefit from it. Especially compared to the generic jetbike RoW. Let's look at the benefits:

Bikes and Jetbikes as non-scoring Troops. Meh. There’s two benefits I see here: 1) you effectively have more FA slots if you’re otherwise filling them up (not too hard with msu speeders) 2) they fill out those compulsory troops slots if you want to go heavy on Recon marines for your scoring. I rate point one much higher than point two, cause you need scoring anyways and I don’t know that I want 3-4 squads of recon marines in larger games. More like 0-2 squads. 

Rampage (2) on RW Cavalry IC. Boo. This is, at most, 1 extra attack each on up to 3 characters? And it pushes you to be more CC-oriented when there aren’t any amazing CC cavalry units to attach said IC to. Would Rampage (3) have been too OP? Or Hit & Run to help a shooty cavalry squad get out of combat? It saddens me that this isn't something better.

Ravenwing Infantry and Cavalry Outflanking. Ah, here we go! All the Cavalry squads natively outflank anyways (except the command squad). But Outflanking Infantry is at least different. I haven’t tried Outflanking in 2E, but I’m a little concerned about counter-play from my opponent, so I wouldn’t want to outflank *eveything*, but 2-3 squads of Tacticals/Despoilers/Assault marines could get some bodies on those hard-to-reach back line objectives. Maybe a small squad of plasma repeaters?

I think the other thing that bears mentioning is the difference in Limitations between this and the generic RoW. Seeker's Arrow allows dreadnoughts! I wouldn’t want to load up on them thematically, but taking one to anchor my back line could be nice. Seeker’s Arrow is also allowed as an Allied Detachment, so maybe that’s attractive to someone? Outflanking (jet)bike Praetor w/Command Squad and a Troop (jet)bike squad would open up access to other DA goodies that might be cool, though the lack of transport options for Inner Circle Knights/Interemptors might be a turn-off. Maybe a The Awakening Fire XVIIIth Primary/Seeker's Arrow Ist Allied. You could put the XVIII chaplain on a bike to hang out with the Ist, who are coming in to hit the opponent from the flank! Very hammer and anvil.

So if I were planning Seeker’s Arrow at 2000 I might go outflanking bike Praetor with a bike command squad, Master of Signals with a Recon squad (make sure those reserves arrive), 2x3 plasma jetbikes (one with a Herald), outflanking 15-man Tactical squad, outflanking 15-man Despoiler squad, 2x1 javelins, 1x2 speeders(grav/grav maybe?), melta/fist contemptor. That’s right around 2000 points with some more upgrades sprinkled around. I don’t love it, but I also don’t hate it. With more points I’d add apothecaries, a Fire Raptor, an Assault squad, a plasma repeater support squad and increase unit sizes. 

I think Sky-Hunter Phalanx is better, though. But that's having played no games with either list, or really any cavalry at all.

 
 
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5 hours ago, Erren said:

Rampage (2) on RW Cavalry IC. Boo. This is, at most, 1 extra attack each on up to 3 characters? And it pushes you to be more CC-oriented when there aren’t any amazing CC cavalry units to attach said IC to. Would Rampage (3) have been too OP? Or Hit & Run to help a shooty cavalry squad get out of combat? It saddens me that this isn't something better.

I think, you are confusing Rampage(2) with Rage(2),

Rage(2) gives you 2 attacks instead of one when charging, while Rampage(2) gives you 2 additional attacks in the fight subphase when outnumbered! =]

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You’re right, I was confusing them. So it’s better than I gave it credit for. And since you wouldn’t be using Deathwing subtype, you could consider a thunderhammer, though I still like the great sword. And I don’t know that you’d need both a command squad and a herald, tossing in a different consul would be cool.

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