HH 2.0 The Hekatonystika: Ist Legion Tactica

[SlickSamos]

How have people found the Dark Angels on the table top?  I haven't been able to start de-40k-ing my DA yet and won't be finished until the summer likely.

 

Also wondered if people's opinions had changed on the DA RoWs being a bit meh on the whole?  To me, their strength seems to be that the can field multiple wings in one army, so taking a DA RoW somewhat limits their potential. 

[The Scorpion]

I find their game design unfocused: a leftover of the Book 9 rules.

 

Whoever made the First Legion rules went all-in on the "Wings" forgetting they are but specialists formations, not their main gimmick.

 

Wings should've remained as Rites of War, nothing more.

 

As thing stands, treating the Wings like a Calibanite Order (hekatonystika) in which individual units cherry pick their bonuses like Thosand Sons do ironically discourages you take Wing-RoW.

 

This lack of understanding of what Wings are supposed to be seeps into the rules, and there is no better example than the Stormwing.

 

Stormwing is a Rite no one takes and it comes down to how redundant it is.

Why is it redundant? Because FW insists on defining it as a formation specializing in Line units. ("Line" as in tactical role, not Line special rule)

 

By their very definition, Line units are not specialists.

A formation specialized in "Line" units is an oxymoron, and the Stormwing RoW suffers from it.

[Gorgoff]

Stubborn Aussault Marines with LD9 because of the Centurion is a very nice gimmik. I guess the main reason why the DA players you know don't olay it is because they don't want to paint and play two 20 men squads of tacticools. Maybe it is the reserve ban as well. I like it and think you can do swell things with the Stormwing Rite of War.

And ludicrous things as well like 200 tacticools plus 60 Assault Marines. 

Excessive?

Me?

Hahahahahahhaha

[SlickSamos]

43 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

And ludicrous things as well like 200 tacticools plus 60 Assault Marines. 

 

I thought this was the Space Marine forum not an Ork one 

 

1 hour ago, The Scorpion said:

 

As thing stands, treating the Wings like a Calibanite Order (hekatonystika) in which individual units cherry pick their bonuses like Thosand Sons do ironically discourages you take Wing-RoW.

 

Interesting, I'd thought that the way they implemented the Wings was really cool.  I love the decentralised knowledge and specialisation it encourages.  (Stormwing doesn't quite fit though as it doesn't really benefit Assault Marines, but that's by-the-by)

 

I think if the Wing-RoW gave Line to certain troops, they'd be a lot more popular, e.g. Ravenwing being more in-line with the Scars' one would be amazing!  

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

Stubborn Aussault Marines with LD9 because of the Centurion is a very nice gimmik. I guess the main reason why the DA players you know don't olay it is because they don't want to paint and play two 20 men squads of tacticools. Maybe it is the reserve ban as well. I like it and think you can do swell things with the Stormwing Rite of War.

And ludicrous things as well like 200 tacticools plus 60 Assault Marines. 

Excessive?

Me?

Hahahahahahhaha

One day I'll get enough tactical marines painted to field it :)

 

That many bodies on the field is just awesome, I've always loved the idea of it even if it's not good (it wasn't at the time I wanted to do it from book 9). With a lot of bizarre restrictions removed, you can at least field a list now unlike its first iteration.

Edited November 24, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Sutek]

If we got line there would be little to complain.  I'm working on a few units so I'd have 20 man units, just need five more for a despoiler, assault and tactical unit it's weird finding out you have enough models for 15 but not 20. 

[ShadowCore67]

I'm not unhappy with the way they represented DA with heavily leaning into the wings, because I do like it. But I would have preferred if they kept that to the Rites and just made the DA legion rule that they have access to a massive unique armory to represent all the special stuff big E let them have. I dislike how much they leaned into the "haha plasma go brrr" idea from 40k.

 

Example is in the Lion book, there's essentially a cenobium squad that's equipped with basically nerve induction shredders, but all we get is plasma flamers.

 

I do think most of our rites are solid. The only ones I'd say are lacking are Deathwing and Ravenwing. Deathwing because it's just a worse Pride that relies on the mission you're playing having objectives. Ravenwing is more a result of the things it gives you being bad on their own. Bikes and jetbikes aren't too hot right now and outflank isn't very good either. Also rampage on a cavalry HQ that is most likely going to be with a cavalry retinue probably won't trigger very often.

[Brother Sutek]

Well the usual gripe I have is that the DAs are shown in fluff teleporting and have no way to do that in game. I would have liked the Deathwing Rite to allow Terminators to teleport or at least buy teleport transponders if they aren't going to allow the Legion access to them in the first place. Most things I can get behind tactically and the Warmonger in the right unit can help. I'm trying to fit enough war crimes units in that I seldom have the points to do so.

[ShadowCore67]

What are people's thoughts on Eskaton Imperative? I've seen a good amount of players saying it's oppressive and not fun to play against, but I don't really see it. The couple friends I've played it against didn't mind. Yeah it makes no man's land difficult terrain but all you have to do is subtract 2" from your movement, it's nothing too complicated. The +1 to wound is niche and the destroyers/interemptors being troops isn't that amazing since they don't get line. In terms of downsides, it forces us to give most of our units one of the almost useless wing bonuses and our opponent can pretty easily get an extra D3 victory points.

[WrathOfTheLion]

9 minutes ago, ShadowCore67 said:

What are people's thoughts on Eskaton Imperative? I've seen a good amount of players saying it's oppressive and not fun to play against, but I don't really see it. The couple friends I've played it against didn't mind. Yeah it makes no man's land difficult terrain but all you have to do is subtract 2" from your movement, it's nothing too complicated. The +1 to wound is niche and the destroyers/interemptors being troops isn't that amazing since they don't get line. In terms of downsides, it forces us to give most of our units one of the almost useless wing bonuses and our opponent can pretty easily get an extra D3 victory points.

I'm thinking of testing it out next week. I'll have a better opinion after using it a bit. I've been playing Word Bearers so far in 2E, so haven't gotten to test the DA RoW yet.

[OnyxUltraKnight]

On 12/23/2022 at 3:34 AM, ShadowCore67 said:

What are people's thoughts on Eskaton Imperative? I've seen a good amount of players saying it's oppressive and not fun to play against, but I don't really see it. The couple friends I've played it against didn't mind. Yeah it makes no man's land difficult terrain but all you have to do is subtract 2" from your movement, it's nothing too complicated. The +1 to wound is niche and the destroyers/interemptors being troops isn't that amazing since they don't get line. In terms of downsides, it forces us to give most of our units one of the almost useless wing bonuses and our opponent can pretty easily get an extra D3 victory points.

I’ve been finding it fun, but likewise. Makes it a slog to advance, and unless you’ve got a really choke-pointed board, the markers are situational at best. I could see it being sort of oppressive against a DG Creeping Death RoW? All Area Terrain and their [DG’s] own Deployment Zone is considered Dangerous Terrain, so flat +1’s to wound for almost the entire game as well as being able to take Marduk to hand out Preferred Enemy to your own high damage units? It’s situational, what’re the chances of playing those exact two RoW’s at the same time?

 

I guess, to answer the original question, it depends on how much you tailor your list to cause and leapfrog off of Dangerous Terrain. Graviton and Phosphex weapons can build up an alarming amount of Dangerous Terrain if left to fire freely - Graviton Pulse and Lingering Death can leave exposed vehicles and infantry units trying to advance in horrible scenarios. Do they try and move forward through the Dangerous Terrain where you now get bonuses against them, or fall back and risk losing objectives/model placement? 

 

I have toyed with the idea of allying in a Mechanicum Detachment: Artificia Machina Magos w/ Master Crafted Machinator Array, 10 Tech Thralls and a Karacnos (375 points). I thought of using an Acastus Knight Porphyrion, but that is 625 points (1.6x cost), much more of a fire magnet, and much harder to hide. Anyway, the Mechanicum detachment plan was as such:

 

Magos repairs and keeps the Karacnos up at full HP, whilst being able to repair other friendly vehicles/dreads within 12” if the Karacnos is all good. Karacnos drops a 7” Pinning Blast with Shell Shock (3) on whatever it’s pointed at (sadly(?) despite sharing a load of other Phosphex rules, no Lingering Death), Dark Angels portion of the list moves up and removes anything pinned off of the board. Maybe pair it with some Deep Striking Assault Marines/Destroyers just to really put a spanner in the works if the enemy army is particularly range based. Now I think of it, whilst typing this all out, Seeker Squads may be absolutely superb choices here for dealing with the bulk of enemy Troops - Breaching (4+) on the Scorpius rounds as well as being able to Infiltrate themselves inside of a Land Raider - all the while having Precision Shots (4+) to pick out Sergeants and other low wound characters (Sergeants, Apothecaries, Techmarines) to remove buffs/leadership and not suffering any Dangerous Terrain tests (if you use Dreadwing) all the while. May give enough time, in conjunction with the Karacnos’ pinning, for the heavy hitters in the back lines to advance up and deal with the Elite troops…

 

Either way, I’ll still be running Interemptors every single time because they are hands down the single coolest flame unit in the game. I love my cancer-ridden, war-crime loving plasma fire boys. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by OnyxUltraKnight

[Galron]

Several questions as I havent ordered any guys yet. Was going to put in an order today for the Inner Circle Knight Cenobium and a character. Which HQ character is the preferred go-to out of Redloss or Marduk? I am less concerned about competition, just I would prefer not be handicapped by a bad choice between the two. I am also tempted by Corswain. Eventually I will pick up the primarch once decals become available again. I tend to lean towards Dreadwing but nothing is set in stone as I plow through painting troopers.  I like the Marduk model but not a real fan of his rules and Redloss seems more of a beatstick. Corswain is awesome but is Deathwing, might be better when I have the Primarch on the board. Marduk I think would be easy to convert to having a big axe instead of that ugly sword. The group here is fairly infantry heavy.

 

My minimum force typically in all my lists no matter the RoW I am thinking about.

2 10 man tacs in rhinos

2 Interempters in rhinos

Cenobium in a Spartan

5 recon with nemisis.

 

Edit: I ended up ordering the Cenobytes and Marduk who I will ditch the sword for an axe and field Redloss. I need to fix my 3D printer and find some decent winged helms and greenstuff some cloaks. Using Sanguinary guard I have for some reason, with the 2 handed swords, , normal back packs, tears cut off and some different shoulder pads. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Galron

[Catachan_recruit]

hi guys, new DA recruit here! Yesterday i bought the big box, and i'm waiting for a big haul from FW with some DA-specific stuff, happy days these are!

i'm yet to work on an army list, i just fell in love with the knightly style of the models as an european history enthusiast. wat do you think works best in this edition for the sons of Caliban? i'l for sure put a 10-man firewing seeker squad, breaching on 3+ against IC and their units is nuts, and works great as a (relatively) cheap distraction carnifex for the enemy.

i'm open to any suggestion!

p.s. i get why they had to prince the caliban warblade at 15 point having +1 strength and rending, but for the same price i can get a power fist... i don't really get why i should take a warblade over a cheaper power sword or a similarly priced power fist

[Galron]

Hits harder than a powersword and hits before the power fist.

[Catachan_recruit]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:28 PM, Galron said:

Hits harder than a powersword and hits before the power fist.

That's my main problem with it: it doesn't really stand out between the regular power sword and the power fist. I can't really fin a reason why i would take it, other than for the fluff and rule of cool.

[Brother Sutek]

5 hours ago, Catachan_recruit said:

That's my main problem with it: it doesn't really stand out between the regular power sword and the power fist. I can't really fin a reason why i would take it, other than for the fluff and rule of cool.

The idea its a sword so if Deathwing you'll get the buff from that, also it not being specialist will give you an extra attack. I'm not saying that is better than a power fist or t hammer by any means but there are upsides to it.

[depthcharge12]

Played Firewing for 1500 doubles at Adepticon, so here’s my initial thoughts.

 

Firewing is powerful but a dual edged sword. In tournaments, you may only get 2-3 turns to play each round. You’ve got to prioritize and kill those targets. I gave up 3 VP first round and 6 the next, but won both rounds (Vazzy was my teammate with IF). 
 

Infiltrating line troops is great where objectives matter. Having them outflank for breakthrough (whatever it is called now to get scoring units in enemy’s deployment zone) or get in cover is still cash money. Basic marines are pretty hardy unless your opponent is running a super sweaty list. Don’t discount bolters’ ability to clear chaff. Heart of the legion makes tacticals tougher for any return fire.

 

Recon Marines…wack. They always put in work every turn. Line, shroud bombs, and 72” 5+ rending nemesis bolters make them worth their points. Don’t ask questions, buy a squad of 10 for any force you run, then thank me later.

 

Cenobium…or rather…the things attached to Terranic Greatswords XD Killed a squad of Red Butchers + WE praetor on the charge but for a single remaining marine. And I was running Hunter of beasts, so I can’t imagine how much better the other orders are. Also murdered 3 Castellax on the charge and would have taken out the Archmagos if it wasn’t previously locked in combat with a heroic Templar. Run a squad of them and reap the salty lamentation of nerds.

 

Speeders…I think they fly under the radar and rarely people prioritize them. I ran double grav proteus speeders and a single lascannon Javelin. Nasty against contemptors, vehicles, and kill bots. Good dark horse choice.

 

Firewing Cabal - I ran them because I wanted to kitbash and I played them for rule of cool haha. You have to hide them behind cover and play conservatively. They are pretty squishy, but fun to run. Don’t fire their pistols, you will only cry when you get reaction fired. Same for outflank or DS. Just don’t.

 

Overall, like how the legion feels, and I’d imagine they only get better at higher point games that go the full turns.

 

FYI - thought of a silly thing you can do: take Firewing Indomitus terminators as non compulsory troops, then infiltrate them. No need to buy transports, and they’d be assaulting T2 at the earliest anyway. Laugh when you drop 2 x 10 terminator bricks close to your enemy’s line.

[SlickSamos]

Sounds great fun! 

I have two questions:

Due to having fewer turns due to the event format, do you think that you would have been better off running the Recon RoW and simply selecting Firewing on key units?  Where there cases where you were able to take advantage of the special rules?

How did you run the Terranic Greatsword dudes?  Which Wing did you choose, did you take any Thunder Hammers and/or how did you get them into CC?

Thanks again for the quick summary!

Edited April 2, 2023 by SlickSamos

[depthcharge12]

10 hours ago, SlickSamos said:

Sounds great fun! 

I have two questions:

Due to having fewer turns due to the event format, do you think that you would have been better off running the Recon RoW and simply selecting Firewing on key units?  Where there cases where you were able to take advantage of the special rules?

How did you run the Terranic Greatsword dudes?  Which Wing did you choose, did you take any Thunder Hammers and/or how did you get them into CC?

Thanks again for the quick summary!

Honestly? I’m sure it could have worked fine with recon company, but the +1 to wound against units with an IC, +1 to hit globally for priority targets, and +1 attack in cc with a PT were just so good. I had to show my opponents the overlapping rules DAs get lol. PT’s are going to be either Elites or HQs at that point, so it’s going to be against units you want to murder. Getting slay the warlord secondary objectives was just icing on the cake.

 

I ran Firewing Cenobium to get all the bonuses, though I’m sure Deathwing would have been just as good. I did 3 swords and 2 hammers…in retrospect, I think 4 swords and a hammer would have worked out better. But that could have been skewed due to having a 1500 point list. The Preceptor slew a lightning claw WE praetor on his own by running a Terranic greatsword. Maybe I was just rolling hot?

 

I ran my Cenobium in a triple lascannon raider, which worked in my favor. Vazzy and I had 3 raiders split between us, so that may have caused issues with target priority for our opponents. I think a smart opponent can kill it in a single turn, but the evade reaction extends its lifespan. I plan for redundancy in my list, but I think at 1500 points, most opponents only brought 1 AT unit which was odd to me.

[Galron]

I am slowly working on two different lists for Dark Angels along with my NL force. All three are wildly different. My DA Iron wing is the farthest behind. Mostly they are painting projects. So the main DA list I am building for just general gaming in a fairly noncompetitive environment. We have a lot of pure or almost infantry forces with a few dreadnoughts and at least one SoH all Dreadnought player but he intentionally takes the less optimal weapons on every one in an effort not to be "that guy."

We have a standing house rule of no more than one shooting reaction per unit per turn which includes aurgery scanner intercepts. So a unit can fire intercept if it wants, but it isnt returning fire and/or overwatching in one turn.

 

I am building a Dark Angels Drop pod assault list and so far I have an interempter squad, an HQ, knight cenobium, deathwing companions and two stormwing infantry squads, a melta lance leviathan, a contemptor, as well as a pair of Sicarians to come in from reserves on turn 2.

 

So I am trying to figure out several things. I know on the leviathans, standard logic is to bring two ranged weapons if its foot slogging and an actual close combat weapon if its arriving by drop pods. I kind of want it to nuke a vehicle when it arrives so would one melta lance be enough or should I bring two and just accept it being bogged down?

 

Considering gravis plasma on the contemptor and a CCW. 

 

What else works well in a pod list? I wanted two interempters but that might be a bit too much I think(I have the models I can convert) but our group really believes in the self moderation rule. I have only seen one lascannon heavy support squad and that was with an Imperial fists player who was all sword and board infantry(whatever they are called) and they didnt last long versus a plasma deredeo. 

 

Maybe a seeker squad? Melta or plasma tactical support?

[SlickSamos]

On 4/3/2023 at 2:22 AM, depthcharge12 said:

I ran Firewing Cenobium to get all the bonuses,

Oh my, I've just realised they are Characters so have +1 A!  I know you said that but I didn't twig until just now!

[Squark]

Another newcomer to the Hekatonystika here. Currently painting and building up my force as part of an Escalation League. Aside from the Age of Darkness Box set, I've picked up a Rhino, CC Leviathan Dread, and 5 sniper scouts for cheap filler, plus the Forge World Apothecaries, Interemptors, and the Artificer Armor DA Praetor because I wasn't too crazy about the plastic ones. I'm curious what you guys would suggest I pick up next? I'm thinking of going with Storm of War as my Rite of War-  I'd love to add a group of 20 Despoilers to ride in the Spartan, but I don't know when the Mk VI despoiler kit will come out and I don't want to try kitbashing a full 20 marines, so that may have to wait.

 

Other possibilities that occur;

 

-Recon squads look interesting. I've been tempted to order one or two but am hesitant with the teasing of additional plastic infantry.

-If you were going to order only one "elite" FW unit, would you suggest Deathwing Companions or Knights Cenobium?

-Are there any other suggestions? Good sources of Centurion Kitbashes for Storm of War?

[Brother Sutek]

Welcome to the best Legion.  I hate to say this but recon are one of the best choices due to their ability to shut down reactions. They can really help get a CC unit into their target. The choice of elites really depends on how you want to play your army. Companions are great and if you're going full into your characters being not disposable then they can do work. Also if your opponents use a lot of nemesis bolters they excell at keeping your characters safe. I love knights but they definitely need to have a plan for their use, if you just throw them out I feel they are wasted. Aim them at something that you need dead and upgrade a few weapons and they can be a serious distraction carnifex. Give them an apothecary and they become even more resilient. I also highly rate box dreadnought with dual Lascannons or lascannon ML, really tough an affordable firepower.

[depthcharge12]

22 hours ago, Squark said:

Another newcomer to the Hekatonystika here. Currently painting and building up my force as part of an Escalation League. Aside from the Age of Darkness Box set, I've picked up a Rhino, CC Leviathan Dread, and 5 sniper scouts for cheap filler, plus the Forge World Apothecaries, Interemptors, and the Artificer Armor DA Praetor because I wasn't too crazy about the plastic ones. I'm curious what you guys would suggest I pick up next? I'm thinking of going with Storm of War as my Rite of War-  I'd love to add a group of 20 Despoilers to ride in the Spartan, but I don't know when the Mk VI despoiler kit will come out and I don't want to try kitbashing a full 20 marines, so that may have to wait.

 

Other possibilities that occur;

 

-Recon squads look interesting. I've been tempted to order one or two but am hesitant with the teasing of additional plastic infantry.

-If you were going to order only one "elite" FW unit, would you suggest Deathwing Companions or Knights Cenobium?

-Are there any other suggestions? Good sources of Centurion Kitbashes for Storm of War?

I’m not sure how long you’ve played 30k, so I don’t want to sound patronizing, but here’s how I create my lists:

 

1. Find a unit or theme you want to build around. I like legion unique units and wanted to try Firewing.

 

2. Once you have your fun/rule of cool unit(s), start thinking of common threats you’ll face. I.e. contemptors, tanks, large units of 3+ save marines…then plan on a way to counter those. 
 

3. Redundancy - find room in your list to double up on a way to kill those threats in point 2.

 

4. Fill in your remaining list with troops. Try to shoot for 3-5 for 3k points

 

 

To answer your questions:

- Recon squads are great with nemesis bolters. If you are concerned with cost, you can convert 40k scout squads or find any number of 3rd party bits. Scoring (line), infiltrate, 72” range, and 5+ rending with precision shot is cash money. I think people will start wisening up to transports, but the common lascannon heavy support squad will be out on foot for you to target.

 

- Cenobium are probably the better pick between the two, but both squads are solid. I think the Companions take a little more thinking around what you plan to load them out with. I think Cenobium also scratches that terminator itch everyone gets :)

Edited April 5, 2023 by depthcharge12

[oldhat]

I am going to be getting myself a Boarding Actions terrain set and it occurred to me I had wanted a DA army for this months ago and then got distracted by other projects.

 

That being said, here is what I am thinking and I am open to ideas:
 

HQ:
Farith Redloss

 

Elites:
Contemptor Dreadnought
Plasma Cannon, Plasma Blaster

 

(5) Inner Circle Knights - Broken Claws
Paragon Blade, 2x Greatsword, 2x Hammers

 

Troops:
(10) Breacher Squad
Thunder Hammer, 2x Grav Guns, Artificer Armor

 

(5) Interemptor Squad
Incinerator, Artificer Armor, Phosphex Bomb

 

(5) Interemptor Squad
Incinerator, Artificer Armor, Phosphex Bomb

 

[1250]

 

A little fluffy, but not skimping on heavy hitters. Any obvious issues? Any recommendations for ZM?