HH 2.0 The Hekatonystika: Ist Legion Tactica

[Squark]

I'm toying with going Pride of the Legion. How would you load out basic Cataphractii? I'm leaning towards a Sergeant with Thunder hammer and grenade harness, then 3 powerfists+1 chainfist for the first five.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Squark

[Gorgoff]

7 hours ago, Squark said:

I'm toying with going Pride of the Legion. How would you load out basic Cataphractii? I'm leaning towards a Sergeant with Thunder hammer and grenade harness, then 3 powerfists+1 chainfist for the first five.

5 dudes, chainfist on the sarge, power axes for the other 4, combi-melter for everyone in a dreadclaw. Deep Strike in, kill a vehicle. Or jump out of a Land Raider to do the same. 

 

[SlickSamos]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:09 AM, Gorgoff said:

5 dudes, chainfist on the sarge, power axes for the other 4, combi-melter for everyone in a dreadclaw.

 

A few questions to better understand the game (I've still not played!):

- Would a Thunder Hammer be better vs Dreads with Brutal?  I guess what I'm trying to say would it be worth running one TH & one CF if you had the points, or would you stuck to two CFs?

- What advantages pushed you for the Dreadclaw over a Warmonger (or other mode of transport)?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Gorgoff]

6 hours ago, SlickSamos said:

 

A few questions to better understand the game (I've still not played!):

- Would a Thunder Hammer be better vs Dreads with Brutal?  I guess what I'm trying to say would it be worth running one TH & one CF if you had the points, or would you stuck to two CFs?

 

Thunderhammer is much better against anything with a toughness value. My idea for this squad is to kill vehicles though. 

6 hours ago, SlickSamos said:

- What advantages pushed you for the Dreadclaw over a Warmonger (or other mode of transport)?

 

Thanks in advance!

The dreadclaw is cheaper and doesn't cost a HQ section. Got nerfed feom last edition though. In 1ed they areived automatically turn one which was very good but now you have to role for reserves like a peasant *shivvers in knightly disgust*

[SkimaskMohawk]

Stock warmonger is 105 compared to the 115 of the claw. You also can't charge from a dreadclaw, making it a turn 3 delivery option at best. It's a better option in terms of getting into assault faster for less points.

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Stock warmonger is 105 compared to the 115 of the claw. You also can't charge from a dreadclaw, making it a turn 3 delivery option at best. It's a better option in terms of getting into assault faster for less points.

Stock warmonger without Cataphractii armour robbing the unit off  the only heavy bonus? Nah man, gibe gim that and he costs 120 points so 5 points more.

No charging is a thing, true but like I said they should kill a vehicle via shooting. That tactic got nerfed because of interceptor though. But if they don't get shot down they should kill a vehicle the turn they arrive. Even more so wince armoured ceramite is no more so even Land Raiders aren't out of the picture anymore.

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Stock warmonger without Cataphractii armour robbing the unit off  the only heavy bonus? Nah man, gibe gim that and he costs 120 points so 5 points more.

No charging is a thing, true but like I said they should kill a vehicle via shooting. That tactic got nerfed because of interceptor though. But if they don't get shot down they should kill a vehicle the turn they arrive. Even more so wince armoured ceramite is no more so even Land Raiders aren't out of the picture anymore.

Warmonger can take a boarding shield for no aditional points, so he becomes heavy and still costs 105pts

Dreadclaw drops more precise though, thanks to halve the scatter distance, which could make it more viable, if you really just want shooting and not charging - but who wouldn't want to be able to charge with Terminators?

Edited April 17, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[SlickSamos]

I guess the whole wanting to charge after Deep Striking is a bit pointless if you've blown up the tank in the shooting phase, as I think you can only charge the unit you shot at (so if it no longer exists, no charge)?

 

Also RE Squark's loadout, aren't Assault Grenades a bit pointless if all weapons are I1? 

 

Also whilst the Warmonger starts at 105, I don't have the discipline not to upgrade him to Cataphractii, Greatsword and Comb-Melta so that's like 150 pts instead XD

Edited April 17, 2023 by SlickSamos

[MichaelCarmine]

21 minutes ago, SlickSamos said:

I guess the whole wanting to charge after Deep Striking is a bit pointless if you've blown up the tank in the shooting phase, as I think you can only charge the unit you shot at (so if it no longer exists, no charge)?

 

Also RE Squark's loadout, aren't Assault Grenades a bit pointless if all weapons are I1? 

 

Also whilst the Warmonger starts at 105, I don't have the discipline not to upgrade him to Cataphractii, Greatsword and Comb-Melta so that's like 150 pts instead XD

Page 213 - las Paragraph "If a Transport is destroyed by a Shooting Attack, any unit which made a Shooting Attack targeting that Transport can, if allowed, Charge the now Disembarked passengers."

-So yeah, as it was in the last Edition of HH, you can still charge Passengers of a destroyed Transport. =] 

That's why i would rather drop with a warmonger, destroy a Transport and charge the Survivors with Terminators and a "loaded" IC, than drop in a Dreadclaw.

[Squark]

1 hour ago, SlickSamos said:

I guess the whole wanting to charge after Deep Striking is a bit pointless if you've blown up the tank in the shooting phase, as I think you can only charge the unit you shot at (so if it no longer exists, no charge)?

 

Also RE Squark's loadout, aren't Assault Grenades a bit pointless if all weapons are I1? 

 

Also whilst the Warmonger starts at 105, I don't have the discipline not to upgrade him to Cataphractii, Greatsword and Comb-Melta so that's like 150 pts instead XD

I think I confused the initiative penalty for charging into difficult terrain with the attack penalty for disordered charges. You're right, with that loadout a grenade harness is pointless.

 

How easy is it to charge a disembarking squad, though? I would think most transports have enough exits to allow the squad to disembark behind their wrecked transport.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Squark

[MichaelCarmine]

18 minutes ago, Squark said:

I think I confused the initiative penalty for charging into difficult terrain with the attack penalty for disordered charges. You're right, with that loadout a grenade harness is pointless.

 

How easy is it to charge a disembarking squad, though? I would think most transports have enough exits to allow the squad to disembark behind their wrecked transport.

Depends entirely on how you DeepStrike.

When they're the only unit you shock, it can be a bit dificult. Got 2? No problem.

Best case you have a vet-unit in a drop pod shock first, halve its scatter, thanks to the drop pod rule and then don't role a 1 ^^

But even without opting into a conga line, it's possible to deep strike a unit close to a transport and position the other squad members, so that they kinda "surround" the vehicle.

Remember, you Deep Strike the first mpdel and deploy the rest of the squad in unit coherrency not base-to-base like in 1st edition!

[Gorgoff]

18 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Depends entirely on how you DeepStrike.

When they're the only unit you shock, it can be a bit dificult. Got 2? No problem.

Best case you have a vet-unit in a drop pod shock first, halve its scatter, thanks to the drop pod rule and then don't role a 1 ^^

But even without opting into a conga line, it's possible to deep strike a unit close to a transport and position the other squad members, so that they kinda "surround" the vehicle.

Remember, you Deep Strike the first mpdel and deploy the rest of the squad in unit coherrency not base-to-base like in 1st edition!

Although if you have the models to surround the transport with your DS units, you probably don't shoot but instead only charge and hope that the transport only dies and not explodes so that all embarked models just die.

 

On 4/17/2023 at 11:42 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

Warmonger can take a boarding shield for no aditional points, so he becomes heavy and still costs 105pts

 

Neat, I didn't realised it/ didn't bother to look because my warmonger has a Cataphracti armor. 

On 4/17/2023 at 11:42 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

Dreadclaw drops more precise though, thanks to halve the scatter distance, which could make it more viable, if you really just want shooting and not charging - but who wouldn't want to be able to charge with Terminators?

Because I want them to destroy stuff like Scorpions and not transports. But yeah, charging is a good option to have. 

On the other hand your precious terminators won't get shot due intercept because they disembark after that. 

It is nice that both ways are viable and work in different ways with different pros and cons to it.

[MichaelCarmine]

32 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Although if you have the models to surround the transport with your DS units, you probably don't shoot but instead only charge and hope that the transport only dies and not explodes so that all embarked models just die.

 

 

Neat, I didn't realised it/ didn't bother to look because my warmonger has a Cataphracti armor. 

Because I want them to destroy stuff like Scorpions and not transports. But yeah, charging is a good option to have. 

On the other hand your precious terminators won't get shot due intercept because they disembark after that. 

It is nice that both ways are viable and work in different ways with different pros and cons to it.

Yeah well, we "don't do that here" in my area.

Surrounding a Transport to ensure the Embarked models don't survive is something we do not endorse. Could've evaded a few enconters with Deathstars that way myself, but doesn't feel "right"... =]

 

You can't move, after performing a Deep Strike Assault, so you cannot Disembark out of a Transport.

Edit: though i don't have my Liber with me at work, might be a special rule of the Dreadclaw, i don't remember! xD

 

That is only allowed in the Subterranean assault, where you "surface" with Termites. There it is specifically mentioned, that Embarked Models may not disembark prior to Interception. After that they may move/shoot as normal.

Edited April 18, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[SkimaskMohawk]

Dreadclaws lack impact reactive doors, the rule that kicks occupants out as soon as the pod is deployed. 

 

But, going back to the rules thread of "is disembark a move?", the initial placement of the models is a placement, not a move; with the flyer base acting as an access point you can disembark your entire unit in base contact with it. And that can be done after the interceptor sequence, though of course it wouldn't trigger pinning.

 

And I remember back in 5th when the storm raven came out; everyone tried to do the wrap-around into the instant kill on those lol. It's still doable now, but the set up is dependant on your charge roll instead of units getting a flat 6" and possibly an extra d6 from Fleet.

Edited April 18, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[MichaelCarmine]

32 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Dreadclaws lack impact reactive doors, the rule that kicks occupants out as soon as the pod is deployed. 

 

But, going back to the rules thread of "is disembark a move?", the initial placement of the models is a placement, not a move; with the flyer base acting as an access point you can disembark your entire unit in base contact with it. And that can be done after the interceptor sequence, though of course it wouldn't trigger pinning.

 

And I remember back in 5th when the storm raven came out; everyone tried to do the wrap-around into the instant kill on those lol. It's still doable now, but the set up is dependant on your charge roll instead of units getting a flat 6" and possibly an extra d6 from Fleet.

Oh yeah, RaW you're right. ̂̂

Though for me, the rule implies, that the placement is part of the movement, since you must end your movement wholly within the maximum Movement distance from the Access point - meaning the placement counts towards your maximum movement distance.

 

But then again, the Flyer base of the Dreadclaw is normally used to show, that the Dreadclaw is using the Flyer-Mode. Ofcourse it is entirely up to you, how you use it, but still... doesn't seem right... ̂̂'

[Gorgoff]

5 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Oh yeah, RaW you're right. ̂̂

Though for me, the rule implies, that the placement is part of the movement, since you must end your movement wholly within the maximum Movement distance from the Access point - meaning the placement counts towards your maximum movement distance.

 

But then again, the Flyer base of the Dreadclaw is normally used to show, that the Dreadclaw is using the Flyer-Mode. Ofcourse it is entirely up to you, how you use it, but still... doesn't seem right... ̂̂'

For me it is clear that only the oder who made the DS can't move. Which is the dreadclaw and not ehoever is embarked. The rules of the termite further agree here because they soecifically allow the model to move. 

So yeah you can disembark and then move unless GW forbids that with an Errata.

 

7 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yeah well, we "don't do that here" in my area.

Surrounding a Transport to ensure the Embarked models don't survive is something we do not endorse. Could've evaded a few enconters with Deathstars that way myself, but doesn't feel "right"... =]

 

Burning the vehicle and holding the door closed feels extremely right to me.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

For me it is clear that only the oder who made the DS can't move. Which is the dreadclaw and not ehoever is embarked. The rules of the termite further agree here because they soecifically allow the model to move. 

So yeah you can disembark and then move unless GW forbids that with an Errata.

 

 

Burning the vehicle and holding the door closed feels extremely right to me.

 

If they don't deep strike, how do they come on the board then? xD

They are assigned to a deep strike assault, as per page 310 in the rulebook, so they also perform a Deep Strike, just inside a vehicle.

So no move, but placement. 

 

Yes, The termite can move - in another Deployment Type, with different wording. So i don't know, how you think of that as "further agreeing"?!

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 4/18/2023 at 8:52 AM, MichaelCarmine said:

 

But then again, the Flyer base of the Dreadclaw is normally used to show, that the Dreadclaw is using the Flyer-Mode.

 

Errr, the base is always used regardless of mode. You only remove the base when it's immobilized or dead, and the rules actively tell you not to take skimmers off their bases otherwise. People love to take them off the base and flip them 90° onto their claws, but that's...not allowed at all lol.

 

17 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

If they don't deep strike, how do they come on the board then?

 

yea units are either deployed on the board or in reserves. Embarked units very much are part of a deepstrike assault and are deployed via deepstrike.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Errr, the base is always used regardless of mode. You only remove the base when it's immobilized or dead, and the rules actively tell you not to take skimmers off their bases otherwise. People love to take them off the base and flip them 90° onto their claws, but that's...not allowed at all lol.

 

 

yea units are either deployed on the board or in reserves. Embarked units very much are part of a deepstrike assault and are deployed via deepstrike.

 

 

 

Hah, oh ok xD i've always ever used flyers, never a Dreadclaw, thoigh i do have one... saw everyone always use them without base, lol ^^

[Squark]

Wait, Dreadclaws fly Horizontally?

 

*checks Forgeworld*

 

By the Emperor they fly horizontally.

 

...

 

How does that work in atmosphere? Is the internal mechanism designed to allign with a planet's gravity so the passengera aren't at wierd angels during flight?

[Galron]

Have never seen a dreadclaw on the board on its stand. Always the modified normal drop pod with the vanes upside down. I just have battlescribe handy, do dreadclaws not have orbital assault like standard pods? Nm they automatically come in first turn regardless thanks to Drop Pod Assault RoW.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Galron

[SlickSamos]

2 hours ago, Squark said:

Wait, Dreadclaws fly Horizontally?

 

*checks Forgeworld*

 

By the Emperor they fly horizontally.

 

...

 

How does that work in atmosphere? Is the internal mechanism designed to allign with a planet's gravity so the passengera aren't at wierd angels during flight?

 

I think passengers, being Space Marines, just have to deal with a terrible flying experience (blackouts and bloodrushes).  As to how it flies, the Imperium is not constrained by minor things like physics...  (It's probably the worst designed aircraft designed by GW, and that's an achievement)

[MichaelCarmine]

40 minutes ago, SlickSamos said:

 

I think passengers, being Space Marines, just have to deal with a terrible flying experience (blackouts and bloodrushes).  As to how it flies, the Imperium is not constrained by minor things like physics...  (It's probably the worst designed aircraft designed by GW, and that's an achievement)

As far as i know, Dreadclaws are designed for boarding actions in a vacuum, where its "claws" grap into the hull of a spacecraft/station and the Iris on it's bottom punches/burns itself inside, where it ankers itself in, so the troops can disembark and wreak havoc.

[Brother Sutek]

46 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

As far as i know, Dreadclaws are designed for boarding actions in a vacuum, where its "claws" grap into the hull of a spacecraft/station and the Iris on it's bottom punches/burns itself inside, where it ankers itself in, so the troops can disembark and wreak havoc.

This is correct. They have melta cutters to burn their way into ship hulls.

[Cactus]

That's correct. Being a superior (older) pattern they have the ability to detach and relaunch for easy recovery. In atmosphere I imagine their 'flight' is more like a ballistic hop with the pod thrusting to flip around or change trajectory in the air.