HH 2.0 The Dodekatheon: IVth Legion Tactica

[xxxjtmxxx]

what about heavy Support squad with maschkas, siege breaker for sunder and warlord with lyssatra?

[Skullheart]

It's gonna be a pretty expensive squad with the 2 HQs in the unit. The output will be pretty strong since you will have 30 Autocannon shots.

One thing you'll have to bear in mind with Tyrant of Lyssatra is that you'll have to react to any shooting attack against your unit. Making it easy for an opponent to bait out your reaction with a low value unit and then shoot your unit with the dangerous guns.

I personally prefer a single Master of the Signals or Armistos with my heavy support squads. Both give you Night Vision and the option to go to BS5 with the unit.
- The Master of the Signals gives you some reserve and morale manipulation.
- The Armisos is a little cheaper and also has the heavy type for re-rollable armour saves against blast and template weapons.

I would recommend that you test the different options to see what suits your playing style best.

[Galron]

I give all sergeants a power fist just so they can do something if they get jumped by a dreadnought or vs a vehicle. Whether or not to include an apoth is based on the unit. With 20 guys they are a big enough investment. I would for sure give one to a breacher squad, they are already expensive so better to make them more survivable. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Well.  I was going to post something, and had a lot to say.  Realized I hit a word count well over 1500 words and I was not even close to finished.  So... Maybe I need to parse my thoughts more and possibly turn it into an article.  

[Gorgoff]

On 7/13/2022 at 8:41 PM, Galron said:

I give all sergeants a power fist just so they can do something if they get jumped by a dreadnought or vs a vehicle. 

Meltabombs are better for this since they autohit. 

[Canadian_F_H]

On 7/24/2022 at 5:43 AM, Gorgoff said:

Meltabombs are better for this since they autohit. 

Are they tho?  MBs are great, but is 1 autohit always better than 3 attacks on the charge? I haven't run the math yet, but I know 3x S9 AP2 attacks certainly aren't bad against most vehicles.

And it might also be good to think of in terms of RoI.  10pts for a MB plus whatever power weapon for another 10pts (right?).  Is that combo better than however much just a powerfist costs?  

Ive almost always run my tactical sgts with a PowerAxe and meltabombs in last edition, so I'm curious if I should change that honestly.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Canadian_F_H said:

Are they tho?  MBs are great, but is 1 autohit always better than 3 attacks on the charge? I haven't run the math yet, but I know 3x S9 AP2 attacks certainly aren't bad against most vehicles.

Three attacks WS4 against a Dread with WS5 should be the same outcome as one autohi, amiright @SkimaskMohawk?

 

1 hour ago, Canadian_F_H said:

And it might also be good to think of in terms of RoI.  10pts for a MB plus whatever power weapon for another 10pts (right?).  Is that combo better than however much just a powerfist costs?  

Ive almost always run my tactical sgts with a PowerAxe and meltabombs in last edition, so I'm curious if I should change that honestly.

I wouldn't give a Tactical Sarge anything but AA and MB. Or a Grav Mace instead of MB.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Gorgoff the melta bomb is the better option against dreads.

The attacks average out to the same amount, but the armourbane rerolls makes it more reliable to wound, and the instant death multiplier averages higher wounds. 

Against vehicles, the power fist is better, but the grav Mace trumps it against both vehicles and dreads. 

[Gorgoff]

And a good way to represent the Grav Mace with this:

[xxxjtmxxx]

think its to small for marines

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I figure since this is what it looks like on the iron circle:

Getting a graviton gun and splicing the main part into the haft of a thunderhammers, then drilling a hole in the head and popping the nozzle of the graviton gun in there would be the way to go about it

[Canadian_F_H]

I'm not sold on Gravity weapons.  I think I need to math them out vs various enemies.  It feels like I'm missing something.

I suppose they just feel redundant since we are already really good at killing all the things Haywire is for. And they are worse than the weapons they replace against everything else.

[Skullheart]

On 7/24/2022 at 12:43 PM, Gorgoff said:

Meltabombs are better for this since they autohit. 

@Gorgoff I don't think Meltabombs autohit dreadnoughts.

The krak grenade allows to make autohits at initiative 1.

The Meltabomb is listed as a melee weapon. It has some special rules, but I haven't read in any of the special rules that it autohits. Am I missing something?

[MichaelCarmine]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:08 PM, spafe said:

Hi, just starting out planning my IW lists, was thinking 20 man strong tacs with vox and vex, then the sarge with arty armour to tank shots but nothing more (to keep him cheap), and shrapnel bolters on all. Then thinking to have a apoc with the unit to keep them trucking.

Do you guys reckon this is a fair way to run them or is it better to give the sarge some offensive stuff, and is the apoc a waste of points?

 

Also thinking a block of breachers in a drill (with heavy flamers) with a apoc, 2 meltas, vox and vex and p/fist on the sarge. again, decent loadout or better to trim the extras and keep em cheap?

I would say, that depends on the RoW you're using.

IF you'll use the IW Rites, you cannot field the Termite, for example, as you are forbidden to Deep Strike/Outflank/Subterranean Assault any of your units.

Atleast in your Primary Detachment...

[Canadian_F_H]

Yeah... Loss of deepstrike for Ironfire hurt me.  I used to lob a boxnaught in droppod to help guide in my danger close barrages.  Was building a Terrax and Destroyers to also use for this because if you only take 1 of each they both arrived turn 1.  

Oh well.  Guess we'll have to do this the hard way, as always. thanks "father" *spits

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Canadian_F_H said:

I'm not sold on Gravity weapons.  I think I need to math them out vs various enemies.  It feels like I'm missing something.

I suppose they just feel redundant since we are already really good at killing all the things Haywire is for. And they are worse than the weapons they replace against everything else.

Well it depends on the weapon.

The basic mace on a power armoured seargent is hard to beat for whacking vehicles/dreads/automata as it's the cost of a power weapon and hits at initiative. I say power armoured seargent, but it really depends on the unit; it's 10/15 for a power weapon and fist respectively on tacs, but 5/20 on destroyers.

The crusher is a lot wonkier. It's the price of a thunder hammer and the unit needs the option available. It's certainly better than a thunderhammer against vehicles, but worse against everything else. And with two handed and unwieldly, it's kind of doing the exact same thing. The other problem is that a lot of thunder hammers are available on terminator characters, and those can just take a chain fist. The chain fist is better up until av14 (where it's even), and it's also better against dreads due to armourbane and already wounding on 2s. So ya, really hard justifying the crusher against the thunder hammer or chain fist.

The maul is also bad. Theoretically, its fits in-between the fist options as kind of a generalist weapon. In reality, you can just take one of each fist and have the best option for either toughness value or armour value.

Now maybe the Custodes or mechanicum are going to get some really crazy invuls on their stuff and you'll want to fish for 6s on the haywire to pierce through it. But until then, only the mace is very compelling for its price. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Yeah.  Unfortunately, while the mace is compelling I feel I'd still rather have a power axe + meltabombs, or just a powerfist on the sgt.  Because the mace may be good against tanks, it's not very good vs anything else.  At least a PF or PA/MB sgt has a tool for all threats. (So what if haywire gets a reroll to wound vs dreads, S4 only wounds most of them on a 6 anyways)

As for destroyers... I've already figured out a way to use them that let's them erase power armoured units (will elaborate later elsewhere), so their job is already sorted, and they can take meltabombs so they don't need haywire maces that stop them from being so good at their anti infantry job.

At this point the only real advantage I can get out of the graviton weapons is that they make iron circle really good at wrecking tanks without them being as likely to explode and hurt them back.

Shame.  The 2 handed thunderhammers from the deathwatch kits would be PERFECT Graviton Crushers.

Just look at it!  If it just replaced a powerfist instead of a thunderhammer (partly for points and partly for accessibility reasons since more units can take PF than TH) then I would definitely put several of these in my army.  

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Canadian_F_H

[Skullheart]

I would like to take some grav weapons, but the limitation that only models with the character subtype can take them kills it for me.

I prefer a weapon with ap2 or rending on my characters to get through opposing arificer armours.

If the power weapon guys in an assault or despoiler squad could take them I'd field probably 2 or maybe even 4 in a 20 man squad.

[Canadian_F_H]

23 minutes ago, Skullheart said:

I would like to take some grav weapons, but the limitation that only models with the character subtype can take them kills it for me.

I prefer a weapon with ap2 or rending on my characters to get through opposing arificer armours.

If the power weapon guys in an assault or despoiler squad could take them I'd field probably 2 or maybe even 4 in a 20 man squad.

The graviton Crusher is AP2 tho. But not a lot of characters can take the thunderhammer it replaces... And even then, why not just take the thunder hammer⸮

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Canadian_F_H armourbane is what gives rerolls against...robots I guess we'll call them? Haywire is the chart that's effectively 2+ to wound, 6s ignore all saves. So the mace is a really good pick for whacking vehicles and bots.

[Canadian_F_H]

23 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@Canadian_F_H armourbane is what gives rerolls against...robots I guess we'll call them? Haywire is the chart that's effectively 2+ to wound, 6s ignore all saves. So the mace is a really good pick for whacking vehicles and bots.

Ah ok. Still not used to all the rule changes.  If that's the case the haywire mace is decent.  Still a bit rough even wounding on 2+ since unless you get a 6 the dreads will still have their 2+armour save.  Our powerfists and thunderhammers will be S9 vs dreads/automata, so wounding on 2+ or 3+ depending on Toughness (new chart, not memorized yet... So uncertain) but the thunderhammer has brutal, so is inflicting multi wounds.

Yeah, so the mace will probably be better than all the other power weapons against Vs Ds and As.  Need to do the math compared to a fist or meltabombs, but definitely not as good as a thunderhammer, but the TH might be a toss up with the Graviton Crusher vs bots/dreads. 

Yeah, I'm still leaning towards generic options more often than not because the graviton weapons lose effectiveness against more things than they gain against.  

[SkimaskMohawk]

No, the normal 2-5 ignores armour, the 6 ignores everything.

[Canadian_F_H]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

No, the normal 2-5 ignores armour, the 6 ignores everything.

I'm gonna shut up and reread some rules.  Lol.  That's actually very good. I thought haywire only effected the to wound roll and it used the normal AP of the weapon.  

To the books!

[Gorgoff]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:36 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

think its to small for marines

It is the same size as the FW Power Maul, so great stand in 

[Cadmus Tyro]

Just looking through the rules for the iron circle, am I right in thinking that the only character that can now join the unit it perturabo? 

Seems a shame…

Cadmus