HH 2.0 The Dodekatheon: IVth Legion Tactica

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Fraters what are your thoughts on loadouts for Castellax with a Praevian Lyssatra Warlord? I'm stuck between Multi-Melta and Darkfire Cannon. The Cannon is longer range and already Gets Hot so the WL trait brings no disadvantage, makes them three shots each so a 50% increase. But the Multi-Melta is comparatively a 100% increase from one shot to two, and is twin-linked so your chances of Getting Hot are comparatively low, but has shorter range and is less effective against vehicles until within 12". I think I'm leaning toward the Cannon with weight of dice and the range bonus but keen to hear your thoughts.

I think there are some questions to ask beforehand.

- how many Castelax are we talking about?

- how many "real" AT-weaponry do you field already?

 

We don't really have any problem with armor, since nearly every weapon transforms into a Vehicle-Killer in our Hands.

Where we do have "slight problems" (though less than other Legions) to deal with - dreadnoughts (even with +1 str.) and 2W Elite Infantry.

 

A Str. 7 (8) Lance weapon is nice, but how many shots are we talking about? For how many points? Cheap enough, that it could in anyway compete with a dual GravLas Castaferrum?

 

If it's all about style for you, rather then "competitiveness", then i'd go with the multimelters, since they're atleast able to smoke 2W T4 Models =]

 

Also - are the Castellax able to react? (don't have my Book at work) 'cause as far as i know, they're not allowed to react outside of a special rule, they can only receive in a mechanicum list. So the additional shooting-reaction would be wasted. 

[Brother Kraskor]

2 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Also - are the Castellax able to react? (don't have my Book at work) 'cause as far as i know, they're not allowed to react outside of a special rule, they can only receive in a mechanicum list. So the additional shooting-reaction would be wasted. 

 

Oh yes of course, you're right. The free return fire would be totally wasted, blast! Probably best to stick with a MoS Lyssatra on Iron Havocs to re-roll the 1s to hit isn't it...!

[MichaelCarmine]

30 minutes ago, Brother Kraskor said:

 

Oh yes of course, you're right. The free return fire would be totally wasted, blast! Probably best to stick with a MoS Lyssatra on Iron Havocs to re-roll the 1s to hit isn't it...!

Oooor the slightly cheaper Armistos, which also comes with a Cognis Signum and a heavy weapon for less points.

He has the Heavy subtype, so you don't have to model a Breaching Shield onto him unlike with the MoS.

Additional Heavy Weapon can also come in handy lategame, for when you want that 1 rhino destroyed, but don't want to waste a whole havoc squad on it. So you detach him and shoot with a two shot MM... =]

[Brother Kraskor]

2 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Oooor the slightly cheaper Armistos, which also comes with a Cognis Signum and a heavy weapon for less points.

He has the Heavy subtype, so you don't have to model a Breaching Shield onto him unlike with the MoS.

Additional Heavy Weapon can also come in handy lategame, for when you want that 1 rhino destroyed, but don't want to waste a whole havoc squad on it. So you detach him and shoot with a two shot MM... =]

 

I really like this idea. I've got a MoS modelled (my avatar!) and I like the Reserves disruption that brings so I may try both out. I like the idea of having a lascannon-toting Armistos for that final clutch situation like you say. 

 

Wonder if it's not also a bad idea to have a Vigilator hang out near the Havocs - if they're going to shoot Infantry, he joins at the start of the turn to benefit from another shot, if they're hunting tanks he jumps out and does his own thing. 

[MichaelCarmine]

I'm building a Nemesis Bolter Veteran squad for an artificer Lysattra Warsmith (for sniper goodness) at the moment and am curious - Do you guys field Veterans much? I'm thinking of adding Powerweapons to all of them, even though they will stay in the backfield most of the time.

'Cause withholding a 5pt Powerweapon off of a WS5 A2(3) model seems kinda wastefull, even more so since they'll function as the Warsmiths "Honour Guard".

 

Could just use Recons, but Relentless and 2 Wounds for Gets Hot are too seductive not to consider...

[Brother Kraskor]

20 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I'm building a Nemesis Bolter Veteran squad for an artificer Lysattra Warsmith (for sniper goodness) at the moment and am curious - Do you guys field Veterans much? I'm thinking of adding Powerweapons to all of them, even though they will stay in the backfield most of the time.

'Cause withholding a 5pt Powerweapon off of a WS5 A2(3) model seems kinda wastefull, even more so since they'll function as the Warsmiths "Honour Guard".

 

Could just use Recons, but Relentless and 2 Wounds for Gets Hot are too seductive not to consider...

 

I have thought about this, using Lyssatra on the nemesis bolters. Also wondered about Seekers - a Lyssatra MoS or Armistos would build in Gets Hot protection. But the 2W of the Veterans is much superior if you want them to be roaming about.

[Gorgoff]

21 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I'm building a Nemesis Bolter Veteran squad for an artificer Lysattra Warsmith (for sniper goodness) at the moment and am curious - Do you guys field Veterans much? I'm thinking of adding Powerweapons to all of them, even though they will stay in the backfield most of the time.

'Cause withholding a 5pt Powerweapon off of a WS5 A2(3) model seems kinda wastefull, even more so since they'll function as the Warsmiths "Honour Guard".

 

Could just use Recons, but Relentless and 2 Wounds for Gets Hot are too seductive not to consider...

But why warsmith when the Delegatus gives you same option but for less points?

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

 

I have thought about this, using Lyssatra on the nemesis bolters. Also wondered about Seekers - a Lyssatra MoS or Armistos would build in Gets Hot protection. But the 2W of the Veterans is much superior if you want them to be roaming about.

Just consider - If your Warlord does not have the Master of the Legion special rule, you do not get access to Rites of War. ^^

Most Legion specific RoWs just demand a MotL to be "present"- but according to the Warlord Rules on page 14 in both the Liber Astartes and Liber Hereticus, the Master of the Legion also has to be the armies Warlord, to get access to Rites of War.

So regardless off the Legion Specific Rites "just" needeing a MotL to be present, or in case of Alpha Legion also need the MotL to be Warlord - all Rites Need a MotL Warlord.

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

But why warsmith when the Delegatus gives you same option but for less points?

Because Hammer of Olympia has a Warsmith "tax" =]

[MichaelCarmine]

On 7/26/2023 at 12:18 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

Just consider - If your Warlord does not have the Master of the Legion special rule, you do not get access to Rites of War. ^^

Most Legion specific RoWs just demand a MotL to be "present"- but according to the Warlord Rules on page 14 in both the Liber Astartes and Liber Hereticus, the Master of the Legion also has to be the armies Warlord, to get access to Rites of War.

So regardless off the Legion Specific Rites "just" needeing a MotL to be present, or in case of Alpha Legion also need the MotL to be Warlord - all Rites Need a MotL Warlord.

I'd like to adress my statement.

We've had a discussion in my group about the Warlord/MotL situation.

 

We stumbled over RoWs in Allied Detachments, specifically the ones who require the RoW to be for an Allied Detachment and it seems, that this is another badly worded rule from GW...

If the Master of the Legion has to be the Warlord for you to gain acess to RoWs, then Allied Detachments wouldn't ever be able to use a RoW, since the Warlord always has to be chosen from the Primary Detachment (unless stated otherwise).

So RoWs like for example The Black Watch (Space Wolves), which requires the detachment to be an Amlied Detachment, could never be used...

Another glorious example of the proof-reading capabilities of GW =]

 

My Group and i now just allow MotL to unlock RoWs in general (Primary and Allied), but when you have one in the Primary detachment, he has to be the warlord...

[Gorgoff]

Page 14 doesn't say that the Master of the Legion must be the Warlord in order to give your army access to Rite of War though. It says if he is the Warlord it gives you access to it which is something completely different. 

It's like saying  "if you wear a hat your head don't get wet when it rains" is the same as "If it rains you must wear a hat to keep it dry". Not true. I could use an umbrella instead.  

Page 96 goes on and explains what makes Rite of War viable and don't say so either.

And neither does the master of the Legion rule itself says so. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Gorgoff

[MichaelCarmine]

20 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Page 14 doesn't say that the Master of the Legion must be the Warlord in order to give your army access to Rite of War though. It says if he is the Warlord it gives you access to it which is something completely different. 

It's like saying  "if you wear a hat your head don't get wet when it rains" is the same as "If it rains you must wear a hat to keep it dry". Not true. I could use an umbrella instead.  

Page 96 goes on and explains what makes Rite of War viable and don't say so either.

And neither does the master of the Legion rule itself says so. 

It says that selecting a MotL to be your Warlord will grant access - telling a player that he/she gets access to Rites of War, if he selects a MotL as the Warlord, pretty much implies, that you have to do that in order to use a Rite of War.

And that doesn't change when further rules say that a MotL Character is enough, because that doesnt change the first printed instance of that rule, it simply does not tell you again, that theMotL also has to be Warlord.

For example - there are two instances (that i can think of), where alternative HQs are a must in RoWs, namely the Armored Spearhed and Fury of the Ancients. In both instances the "must have"- HQ model gets the MotL special rule and has to be the armys Warlord.

 

If they just need you to take a MotL character to gain access - like it is discribed on Page 96, like you said and like i now know it should work - then why print that paragraph at all?

It serves no purpose other than implying, that you absolutely need a MotL to also be Warlord.

If that paragraph was missing, noone would question the rule on pg. 96. 

Jet it is printed in the both liber books.

 

I think, it was meant to be that way and slipped through proof reading, when they decided, that you don't need a MotL Warlord, because they either added the Allied Rites later, or realized, that they wouldn't work that way...

[Brother Kraskor]

Has anyone tried Lyssatra HSS with multi-meltas? The mind boggles at the thought of 20 twin-linked melta shots going into literally anything...!

[Irate Khornate]

20 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Has anyone tried Lyssatra HSS with multi-meltas? The mind boggles at the thought of 20 twin-linked melta shots going into literally anything...!

Not my cup of tea. Someone is going to force your reaction with a rhino, or a cheap bare minimum tactical squad so you can't react to more important squads targeting them and even with twin linked you are going to roll ones. 

 

I liked the lyssatra warlord trait at first, until I realized most of the time it's a trap. Sure it's amazing, but the drawback is punishing.

[MichaelCarmine]

30 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

Not my cup of tea. Someone is going to force your reaction with a rhino, or a cheap bare minimum tactical squad so you can't react to more important squads targeting them and even with twin linked you are going to roll ones. 

 

I liked the lyssatra warlord trait at first, until I realized most of the time it's a trap. Sure it's amazing, but the drawback is punishing.

Yeah, i agree... i run Dodekathon or Stoic Defender most of the time.