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The Kyroptera: VIIIth Legion Tactica


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Posted (edited)

Discussion topic with regards to the Night Lords in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited by Slips
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Posted (edited)

New HH player who bought a couple of sets of BaC and lots of NL accessories:

 

Thoughts on Terror Squad loadouts? Is 10 Volkite and a choice of sgt melee weapon still the go to? Infiltrate or transport?

 

Thoughts on Raptor loadouts? With a smorgasbord of options, how many expensive melee weapons are sensible?

Edited by Brother_Angelus
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For the terror marines, volkite might be viable in some scenarios; failing that, they have a lot of builds and options.

 

Volkite got dropped to 2 points per model, so a 15 man squad with volkites is 325 and averages 9 dead marines a volley. The only problem is that there's a lot 2 wound models to kind of spoil the fun; its a lot harder to pick off terminators and the like. You could do 10 in a rhino, now that that's a dedicated (unless it got added in book 9 and I never noticed lol) and use infiltrate and the move+disembark to get in range. But the same problem applies with all the 2 wound models walking around.

 

The next option is rotor cannons. These are imo a great pickup in 2nd. They're assault and cause pinning with an additional -1 modifier due to shell shock. Terrors have a -1 LD aura due to fear, and you'll commonly have an ambient -1 from night fight. 5 terrors with rotors will average at least 1 wound on even 2+ armour with a 5++ fnp or shroud, and then force a pinning test at -3 leadership, averaging a pin (as most seargent LD is 8 now). From there, you can decide if you want to ignore the pinned unit to focus on other stuff, shoot it more without fear of reactions, and/or charge it and gain the Bloody Murder bonus of +1 attack and charge distance. Personally, I'd toss rotor squads in rhinos so they could position nicely with their fear auras.

 

Theres flamers, which are interesting and potentially hilarious, but also have the potential to be worthless as a lot of tough units have Heavy, allowing them to reroll failed armour saves. This includes cataphractii, and the math is hilariously bad; 15 flamers, each hitting all 5 termies, wounding 3s rerolling 1s, averages 1.6 failed armour saves. Not even a whole terminator dead. You also have to watch out for reactions that allow charging from getting shot. But having said all that, you could pull some high-risk plays with a rhino and 10 who also have good melee weapons. Do something like flame, overwatch, melee.

 

And that brings us to melee versions/add-ons. Youre already pretty good in melee, but are hampered a bit by ws4 now. You can just go for a huge horde with wight of attacks and maybe 5 rotors to trigger Bloody Murder and chop up 12 power armoured guys on average (6 failed 2+). Or you could start spending on their melee upgrades and crank that number way up; chain axes go to 14 3+ (7 2+), chain glaives go to 34 3+ (12 2+) and chain blades go to 43 3+ (14ish 2+). As hilarious as those numbers are, that unit will run you 470 points for either

15 blades or glaives and 5 rotors; even with a 3" coherency and +1 cover for skirmishers, and the -1 BS and 24" los cap for night fight, you're still just 1 wound models in 3+ armour. A statline that's very much vulnerable to all the newly revamped melee weapons. Also terminators reduce the glaives and blades numbers a bit due to invul to 9 and 10 respectively. Still a squad wipe, but not really worth double the cost of most terminators lol.

 

Raptors are kind of similar in terms of melee output. Just, better due to WS 5 and options for power weapons giving you a bit more flexibility in attack profiles. I'd recommend at least one melta regardless of unit size, just to threaten vehicles with the loss of armoured ceramite. But either way, lots of melee choices, and ways to burn up almost 600 points in one unit. You could do a truly heinous pinning setup (like deepstrike) into 15 double claws for something like 17 wounds through 2+ armour (12 against terminators). Or a respectable 52 to 3+.

 

For a more reasonable, less points intensive build, you could just do single lightning claw or power sword to eat 3+ armour and give you some utility against other targets. Realistically, the claw is better for the same points, and Alex you to do melta without losing attacks, but no one has single lightning claw+pistol/melta modeled lol.

 

Unlike terrors, the 2 wounds of the raptors makes death balling them a lot more safe. They also have the same skirmishers rule, benefit from night fight, and have sudden strike to give initiative in the charge and not trade models the way terrors would have to.

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Posted (edited)

The next option is rotor cannons. These are imo a great pickup in 2nd. They're assault and cause pinning with an additional -1 modifier due to shell shock. Terrors have a -1 LD aura due to fear, and you'll commonly have an ambient -1 from night fight. 5 terrors with rotors will average at least 1 wound on even 2+ armour with a 5++ fnp or shroud, and then force a pinning test at -3 leadership, averaging a pin (as most seargent LD is 8 now). From there, you can decide if you want to ignore the pinned unit to focus on other stuff, shoot it more without fear of reactions, and/or charge it and gain the Bloody Murder bonus of +1 attack and charge distance. Personally, I'd toss rotor squads in rhinos so they could position nicely with their fear auras.

 
I might have missed some leaks, where did you get this weapon info from?
 
I like the idea of small rotor pin squads with a melee unit to follow up and take advantage.

Edited by Brother_Angelus
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Some thoughts on what we've seen so far, not including units:

 
Legiones Astartes: A Talent for Murder
 
Great LA rule, getting activation on shooting more than makes up for losing the to hit bonus. Dreads and armor get LA rules now and we see that the rule applies to penetration rolls as well, which means that 'outnumber' has to be defined more precisely than ever.
 
From what we know so far, Scimitar jetbikes and Spatha combat bikes don't confer bulky, which is another strike against them this edition. Dreads and speeders have lost the vehicle unit type, which make them particularly good targets for this rule. Vehicle squadrons won't outnumber other vehicles since the 'count as ten models' clause is only in effect "for the purposes of determining if the model is outnumbered by another unit." 
 
Lists which want to benefit should include maxed out infantry, jump packs, and terminators. One plausible combination for anti-tank shooting could be a ten man heavy support squad with a techmarine, which could see a +1 to hit and a +1 to penetrate, or maybe a ten man veteran squad with an apothecary.  Fluffy and powerful, we are fortunate!
 
Advanced Reaction: The Better Part of Valour
 
Useful ability which allows you to prevent a bad match-up in the assault phase. In the one 2nd edition game I've had so far, both my opponent and I favored defensive reactions even though we were both playing offensive armies (Night Lords and Death Guard). Will update this section when I've gotten more experience with the new system. 
 
Warlord Trait: Warmonger
 
This is an interesting one that tries to be fluffy. Needing to include a Sons of Horus detachment to get all of the bonuses could lead to a thematic late heresy list, but I'm not sure that a single fearless unit is worth the tax. +1 to hit against independent characters and their squads is great, and there are some obvious synergies to mention later on. Bonus shooting reaction will I think be the most valuable of the three reactions for this legion, since you can choose to either shoot back with an outnumber bonus (you maxed out that squad didn't you?) or can make your assault unit more survivable.
 
Warlord Trait: Jadhek Clanlord
 
Assistance with movement and charges is always welcome, and counter attack is nice to have. Everybody hates failing dangerous terrain tests, and you'll be seeing more than ever if you're taking lots of jump infantry. Bonus movement phase reaction is nice to have as well, you can pull off some slick little tricks in your opponent's turn. Don't think this will be my go-to trait, but it's utility is easy to appreciate.
 
Warlord Trait: Flaymaster
 
This feels like the most characterful and fun of the three legion traits we get at launch. If your warlord is a melee beatstick in a squad full of them, you'll thrive in the enemy's backlines. Saturating your opponent's area of operations with fear bubbles will let you live longer and kill faster. Any warlord trait that lets you 'power up' as you rack up kills is undeniably fun, and gets you invested in that model. No comments on the extra assault phase reaction, I need to get more games in for now.
 
Rite of War: The Swift Blade
 
Extra HQs available if you want them. Have to be on bikes, which don't get outnumber and won't allow for some consul choices. Doesn't allow for warlord trait choices either, and once again bikes don't outnumber. You can bring outriders as troops, which won't outnumber.
 
Rite of War: Terror Assault
 
This ROW gives you extra and more reliable night fighting, which confers defensive bonuses to you and makes leadership checks harder on your opponent. Terror Squads and Night Raptor Squads get troops but not line, and you can still bring regular troops if you want them instead. Everybody gets the fear special rule. Like before, only one heavy can be included in your list so choose wisely.
 
I think this will still be the go-to RoW for Night Lords players, and even though it now offers fewer direct benefits, there's a lot you can do with three turns of night fighting. Night fighting should get its own blurb once the finalized core rules drop.
 
Nostraman Chain Weapons:
 
After living a long and happy life, the iconic chainglaive has multiplied into a family of chain weapons. Old and decrepit, it now spends its days in quiet and solitude. What does that mean?!
 
There are three chain weapons: chainblade, chainglaive, and headsman's axe. Chainblade is a chainglaive with one less strength and one more attack, since it does not have the two-handed special rule. Curiously, the one unit it's totally native to (contekar) doesn't benefit from this extra attack. Chainglaive gets two handed, and an extra point of strength, bringing it up to S6 for your legionaries. Useful on terminators, not so much on anything that brings a pistol to the fight. For an extra five points, you can take the chainglaive and bring it up to strength 8, which will trigger instant death on most opponents. There's been a proliferation of 2 wound models this edition, and instant death is great to have, especially at initiative. So where does this leave the chainglaive? If I told you you could get +1 attack, instant death, or neither, would you ever pick neither? I wouldn't. Worth noting that this family of weapons got more expensive this edition, since you're buying the power weapon and then buying a 10-15 point upgrade for that weapon. Used to be fun to leave on tactical sergeants, now I am having second thoughts. This topic brought up some lively debate on discord, I am excited to hear what people make of it here.
 
Escaton Power Claw:
 
A 10 point upgrade for a power fist, you can now re-roll that 2+ to wound most targets. More utility now against things like speeders and dreadnoughts. Don't have much of an opinion on these, plan to try although I wonder if it's really worth the cost.
 
Lords of Murder & Blood Murder:
 
Last edition it seemed like nobody could hang with the night raptors and keep their special rule. Now your ICs can opt in for 5 points, which is a nice gesture. Bonus charge distance and attack on pinned or falling back units. To be pinned or falling back, units need to take a leadership test which is affected by night fighting and fear. You can see where this is going.
 
Prey Sight:
 
Night vision now costs 15 points. Used to be comped, shame to lose that. Night vision now lets you ignore the shrouded special rule, which is very good, so I understand why we're paying.
 
Trophies of Judgement:
 
Give a character fear for 10 points. Nice to have it if your RoW isn't supplying this already.
 
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Some things to add to what you've covered:

 

Im suspicious of bikes and dreads and such not getting bulky. It seems like something that will be different in the final version; a primarch is bulky 4, Raven guard packs are bulky 3, normal packs and term are bulky 2, but a leviathan is...1. If not, at least curze can one round a contemptor with his power up.

 

Better part of valour can be used really creatively. Raptors obviously can just leave charge range and leave them hanging, but you can also use ruins to break los and the charge with normal infantry. Obviously, it's not as useful if there's other units they can redirect to, but uh, that sounds like playing fair lol.

 

I'll be honest, the warlord traits don't really jump out to me. There's the mini game of "what reaction do I need to go up", but they're all kind of...bad. Warmonger only activates on units that are Loyalist and have ICs, and while fearless is great, allies don't like the night time too much. Jhadek is only really good with the rite, which is also kind of middling. If jump troops were an option for swift blade, it'd be a lot better. As it is, outriders still have a really odd niche, and hussars worked far better as a core unit. Flaymaster I actually think is good, but it's just irrelevant due to curze.

 

Terror assault and night fight by extension offer just too much that goes with the core of the night lords game plan. They could cut any combination of 2 debuffs and it would still be good.

 

Jaddek sadly just doesn't compare. You get locked out of a large amount of units, even ones that nominally fit in like javelins. All for 3 units getting counter attack and a bit more movement? Maybe if the bikes scored.

 

Chain weapons aren't worth it on seargents. 25-30 points is a very hard sell, and you don't get the volume of attacks needed to make the breaching kick in. Just stick with a handy power fist, or even a single lightning claw instead.

 

Escatons would be a lot more interesting if they weren't locked to ICs. 10 points for shred and murderous strike isn't bad, especially with stuff like sons of Horus/battle-hardened/dreadnoughts kicking around. Once again, it's a hard sell, but if you're doing a paragon+fist praetor you can add a few more points to get the escaton.

 

Bloody Murder is one of those synergy pieces the night lords can really abuse. I have a hard time recommending buying it when curze grants it to the entire army though. I guess if you're not using curze and you want a chaplain to support the raptors, you have an option to keep the rules.

 

Night vision ignoring shrouded is extremely good, and makes some units only form of post-armour defence irrelevant (looking at you anti-grav units). What I didn't realize at first is that night vision ignores all the effects of night, so the -1 LD in addition to the range and bs modifiers. Kind of relevant since some gear only removes the range cap, or the range and BS.

 

And ya, trophies are niche due to the strength of terror assault. Still useful in say, a sevatar pride list though.

 

The problem is that it's hard to move away from curze in a terror assault. You're basically getting 30 points of upgrades per unit for free, on top of some really, really good synergy.

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Chain weapons got ridiculously expensive on sarges! I guess there's still a place for the Axe on HQs. But of course Blades are suddenly amazing, wonder how they should be modelled... I own Contekars so there is a reference there but other than those on the rest it may be hard to differentiate between Sword/Blade/Glaive. I have a couple of chainswords from the 40k's Raptors that I modified with a rather short shaft/hilt so maybe I can trick the other player into thinking this is whatever I choose to bring for the battle...

 

I'd say the Claw is more appealing now thanks to more stuff having toughness values and murderous strike is a nice addition.

 

For me the big winner is the Terror squad. Never really liked them, usually favoured Veterans as they packed a meaner punch in both melee and range. But now they are cheaper, can take great melee weapons, are skirmishers and can mix and match guns, including cheap volkites and finally not terrible rotors. Lookin' great.

 

 

I haven't got the time to find/read all the rules so could I kindly ask some more knowledgeable fellas about stuff that I'm not so sure about:

 

1.) can any sergeant take Trophies or is it just for Independent ones?

 

2.) the dreadnoughts are not treated as vehicles right? So our omnipresent shred works on them? And stuff like Sunder doesn't?

 

3.) does Stubborn now cancels out the effect of Fear or shell shock on say pinning tests? Was also wondering, if someone, prolly a Primarch, allows some unit within X" to use his Ld, will the unit suffering from Fear use his base Ld (as he does not suffer from Fear) or will it still subtract the penalty from its newly received primarch-grade Ld because the unit itself suffers the debuff.

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Raptor weapons are basically chain blades, just minus the chaos symbols.

 

Seargents can take trophies, as it's Character and Night Lords that are the restrictions.

 

Dreads aren't vehicles and currently get gobbled by the +1 to wound. Sunder doesn't work on them, but some things like armourbane, haywire and shock pulse do. There's no hard and fast rule.

 

Stubborn blocks modifiers for morale and pinning tests. Regroup is fair game for fear, and night fight just blanket affects everything to do with LD. If you can break a stubborn unit with shooting and charge it, they're very much in the trouble zone. For the sharing of leadership, it seems kind of vague, as night fight reduces the characteristic (the thing that gets replaced), but fear only trgiers for certain events.

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Posted (edited)

Oh! Wow! That's... um... Ave Dominus Nox!!

Potentially related, then, what is shell shock and what weapons have it?

 

Rotor cannons are an obvious one for pinning, but what else? Getting ranged options to kick off the pinning seems like it's going to be crucial to getting things under way since Talent For Murder only helps you capitalize on an initial advantage rather than giving you something to turn a fair fight in your favor.

Edited by Uberlord Gendo
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*looks sadly at my sergeants and full squad of ten Night Raptors, all modelled with chain glaives*

 

I am liking that my Terror Assault list can go largely unchanged (2 x 10 Terror Squads with volkite, 1 x 10 Night Raptors with apothecary and Praetor, 1 x Tac Squad, 1 x Assault Squad, though I'm waiting to see how Contekar fare in real terms.

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Oh! Wow! That's... um... Ave Dominus Nox!!

Potentially related, then, what is shell shock and what weapons have it?

 

Rotor cannons are an obvious one for pinning, but what else? Getting ranged options to kick off the pinning seems like it's going to be crucial to getting things under way since Talent For Murder only helps you capitalize on an initial advantage rather than giving you something to turn a fair fight in your favor.

 

Shell shock(x) means you take pinning tests caused by that weapon at -x to your ld, which then also stacks with fear/anything else similar. Believe shell shock is mainly kept to more high RoF weapons, so the rotor cannon, punisher rotary cannon, and I think some of the quad launcher munitions? going off the p3 generic leaks at least.

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I only know about the leaks but I noticed the following having Shell Shock:

 

- Rotor Cannon, Punisher Cannon (and maybe other stuff with really high rate of fire)

 

- Vigilator

 

- Quad Launchers w/ Splinter

 

- weird, esoteric, legion-specific stuff, like the guns of Kakophoni or some psychic powers maybe

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  • 4 weeks later...

Turns out psykers with Telepathy are great too.

I made a list somewhere of all the sources of shell shock, I'll put it up when I find it. Nemesis bolter recon squads are going to be great troops, particularly in something like Terror Assault where we need line. It may end up being a pain to play against, but sniping the leaders and forcing pinning tests on the grunt's LD before going in for some good old ultraviolence is very much on brand.

The single HS is easier with things coming in squadrons- I think Arcus, Punisher, and Scorpius squadrons looked pretty good depending on what you want the secondary capability of the weapon to be.

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Recons are definitely great in terror assault, as you can get around their support requirements with the raptors and terrors in the troop department.  Snipers obviously make them incredibly synergistic with terror assault and make them able to damage every unit between the STR 5 and rending, but you can easily rack up points on upgrading them; those snipers are almost the same cost as extra dudes.  You need to decide if you want them to be part of the damage of the list, or just objective fodder.

 

The HSS option is a trickier one now that many people's default got dumpstered (grav flux leviathan). The fire raptor is a classic, though expensive now, as is the arcus. I think that either a pred squadron or a Scorpius squadron can really help for the relatively low points you pay.

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Sources of Pinning and Shellshock from Weapons on launch:

Rotor Cannons P (Pinning), S1 (Shell Shock (1)), Support Squads, etc.

Nemesis Bolter, P, various squads (Vigilator, P, S1)

Frag Missiles/Grenades, P, various, including combi

Quad Launcher, Incendiary Shells, P

Quad Launcher, Splinter Shells, P, S1

Punisher Rotary Cannon, P, S3

Kratos HE Shells, P

Volkite Cardanelle, P, Kratos

Morbus Bombard, P (Aww yeah, it's morbin time.) On the Arquitor

Deathstorm Missile Launcher, P

Ailos Missile Launcher, P, Deredo

Volkite Falconet, P, Deredo

Arcus Missile Launcher, Pyrax warheads, P

Scorpius Missile Launcher, P if you remain stationary.

 

It takes an average of 5 s5, no AP hits, 6 for S4, to kill a Marine. Since you actually need to put a wound on someone to trigger pinning, against Astartes, beyond spamming rotor cannons and nemesis bolters, basically everything on here has a solid shot of killing the guy required to trigger the pinning test thanks to volume of shots or blast. (Though I'm not sure how often your opponent will be so kind as to allow you to get 6 dudes under a small blast template. Still, if you're taking a Contemptor, taking a Cyclone can't hurt.) Since most of these options are in the HS slot, flexibility is probably useful. One of our best options may be the Scorpius given that not only does it get rend(4+) if it stayed still, which is what you need for pinning anyway, it's also high strength enough to do double duty as anti-tank. The Arcus's ability to take multiple kinds of ammunition is also useful, as is the Kratos' main gun's ability to use different shells.

Edited by Uberlord Gendo
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Starting HH for the first time and theory crafting Terror Assault lists.

 

Terror Squads can infiltrate, but how do we get everything else in to position? Sevatar looks great for giving termis deepstrike but the he himself is stuck walking?

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@Uberlord Gendo vigilator sniper was reduced to shell shock 1 in full release, not sure if you meant to write that or 3. You also only have to inflict an unsaved wound, (not kill) to trigger pinning, which obviously makes the frag missile stuff and rotor cannons more viable. 

 

@gil galed unfortunately sevatar doesn't really fit with terror assault as much any more. He pushes terminators, and juggling 3 non-scoring units that like alternative deployment feels a bit too clunky imo. He's probably best served in a Pride of the Legion list where some of your dudes can score and they don't clog the FOC up. He's also now a bit too expensive to just randomly include when not building around his bonuses.

 

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Given the importance of pinning, anyone have any thoughts on the viability of a squad of Veterans with combi-grenades in a drop pod? 350 points for ten Vets, each with a lightning claw and a combi-gren, with AA on the Sergeant and the drop pod built into costs. They drop in, pop off a massed frag attack, and charge whatever remains to finish it off.

Edited by newmajorpanic
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In Terror Assault I was thinking a Heavy Weapons support squad with missile launchers and prey sight as our heavy support action. Basically their job is to frag any unit that is about to be assaulted to force a pin check and maybe get a few chip damage wounds in.

I really want to bring Sevatar but as someone said, getting him there is going to be tricky. I dont have my book in front of me so I dont know off hand if terminators or contekar are allowed to bring a Spartan as a dedicated transport not that I really want to use the points for it.

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6 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

drop pod dont have the assault vehicle rule so no Charging First turn 

Drop pods do have Orbital Assault Vehicle. Dreadclaw has nothing similar, Kharybdis has Assault Vehicle. What does Orbital Assault Vehicle imply? I probably missed it, but didn't see it defined anywhere.

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3 minutes ago, mooftak said:

Drop pods do have Orbital Assault Vehicle. Dreadclaw has nothing similar, Kharybdis has Assault Vehicle. What does Orbital Assault Vehicle imply? I probably missed it, but didn't see it defined anywhere.

The rule is explained on page 123 of Hereticus or Astartes books. 

All it does is force the drop pod to deepstrike to deploy. If it cant, its immediately reduced to 0 HP and wrecked. Furthermore, it can never move. Thats it. No mention of it also having the Assault Vehicle rules as part of it meaning it would have to have the actual Assault Vehicle rule if it were to permit assaults out of deepstrike - which it doesnt and therefore does not allow.

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