HH 2.0 The Kyroptera: VIIIth Legion Tactica

[oldhat]

45 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I'll just feedback here lol.

The biggest issue with terminators teleporting is the master of signal with vox disruption. One of the units will get in, but the other two have good odds of being screwed. I think keeping the cataphractii as troops will allow them to have impact even if you want to footslog since they can fight for the mid-field objectives. 

Otherwise, there's a lot of eggs in baskets. You can sledgehammer a lot of stuff, but might find it hard to deal with msu, or not get hammered by reactions if the snipers fail. 

Night also sucks. In my last sevatar pride list, I just threw something together at the end and forgot to pay for night vision. Big mistake lol. -1 bs is hard to deal with, and your spartan has its range slashed.

Maybe drop the tartaros into a command squad and the Spartan into a dedicated raider. Take some night vision and maybe get another contemptor in there; you get over 300 spare points to play around with.

I appreciate the feedback! Solid observations!

How many people are bringing a MoS? Seems like SoH mainly for Black Reaving. The ability to drop in and get into combat is just hard to pass up. Though I don't disagree on it being a risk. I am just banking on the reward being worth it. Maybe I can get lucky and snipe the MoS on T1!

As a Night Lord, I seem to forget about NF a lot. I need to pop Prey Sight on that Spartan.

My concern with dropping to a Command Squad and dropping to a Land Raider is losing the large-sized Line unit. Even as durable as the Cataphractii are, they are slow. The Spartan means I have a tough-as-nails transport that can help me push deeper into their back field with that Tartaros unit and have enough dudes to survive for a while once they are out on foot. At least, that is my thought process on it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 minutes ago, oldhat said:

How many people are bringing a MoS?

Honestly? Opponents who are sick of night lord shenanigans. They can just shut down deepstrike/flanking (so raptors, contekar, and terrors all lose their alt deployment methods; sevatar as warlord gets countered), have night vision, and give +1 bs to a good shooting unit. Theyre a good option for traditional foot gunlines, and help counter night lord stuff for their key unit. 

The night fight stuff is really easy to appreciate after playing a curze-terror list and switching to a sevatar-pride. Doesn't hurt that night vision cancels shroud too...

And fair enough for the tartaros and having a big unit keep on going, though of course, your cataphractii are currently your line units. If you're deepstriking those, then killing the backline and holding their objectives creates a lot of pressure; if they clear but don't score, your opponent can kind of ignore them.

[oldhat]

39 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Honestly? Opponents who are sick of night lord shenanigans. They can just shut down deepstrike/flanking (so raptors, contekar, and terrors all lose their alt deployment methods; sevatar as warlord gets countered), have night vision, and give +1 bs to a good shooting unit. Theyre a good option for traditional foot gunlines, and help counter night lord stuff for their key unit. 

The night fight stuff is really easy to appreciate after playing a curze-terror list and switching to a sevatar-pride. Doesn't hurt that night vision cancels shroud too...

And fair enough for the tartaros and having a big unit keep on going, though of course, your cataphractii are currently your line units. If you're deepstriking those, then killing the backline and holding their objectives creates a lot of pressure; if they clear but don't score, your opponent can kind of ignore them.

lmao yeah, Night Lords really did come out ahead in this edition and TA seems to be that obnoxious list it never hurts to build against. I just have to hope I can snipe the guy before he causes me a headache. Between the Recons and the Vigilator, I stand a decent chance unless they tuck him totally out of LoS, which I am sure they will if they can!

Oh yeah. I forgot it is just the two Cataphractii that are Line, not all the Terminators total. So never mind that previous point. They are just a pressure unit. With that in mind... your suggestion does sound pretty appealing. Something for me to consider, for sure. Not like I need much of an excuse to pick up a Proteus Land Raider, since they're so classic and soon to be in plastic!

ETA: List based on suggestions!
 

Spoiler

HQ:
Sevatar
[220]

Librarian
Telepathy
[105]

Vigilator
[95]

(5) Tartaros Command Squad
4x Twin Lightning Claws
Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer & Combi-Bolter, Grenade Harness
[230]

Land Raider Proteus (DT)
Hull Lascannon, Prey Sight
[250]

Elites:
Contemptor Dreadnought
Gravis Lascannon, Prey Sight
[210]

Troops:
(10) Cataphractii Terminators [LINE]
2x Thunder Hammers & Combi-Bolter
1x Chainfists & Combi-Bolter
2x Plasma Blaster & Power Axe
3x Power Fists  & Combi-Bolter
1x Power Axe & Combi-Bolter
Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer & Combi-Bolter
[435]

(10) Cataphractii Terminators [LINE]
2x Thunder Hammers & Combi-Bolter
1x Chainfists & Combi-Bolter
2x Plasma Blaster & Power Axe
3x Power Fists  & Combi-Bolter
1x Power Axe & Combi-Bolter
Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer & Combi-Bolter
[435]

(5) Recon Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

(5) Recon Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

(5) Recon Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

Fast Attack:
(2) Javelins
Las, MM
[210]

Heavy:
Leviathan
CML & Drill, Phosphex
Drop Pod
[405]

[3000]

Here is what I tossed together based on your feedback!

Edited October 5, 2022 by oldhat

[Stickyjester]

Any advice for a struggling Night Lords player? I'm getting absolutely stomped at my local HH nights week after week and I'm not sure why. I only started playing HH with the new edition and have no prior wargaming experience which is definitely hurting me. Most games dont feel at all competitive and just arnt fun the play. I love the Horus Heresy and just want to have fun games which feel like I have a chance. 

My 2250 point list at the moment is a Terror Assault rite of war with Flaymaster:

Preator with jumppack and paragon blade - 170

Contemptor Dreadnought with gravis lascannon, fist, melta and having launcher - 220

10 x Night Raptors, 9x chain blades, 1x headman's axe - 415 + apothecary with jump pack - 60

5 x Cataphractii Terminators, combi-bolters, 4x power axe, 1x thunder hammer - 190

12x Terror squad, 5 x rotor cannons, 7x volkite chargers - 313

5x Recon squad, 5x nemesis bolter, prey sight - 150

5x Recon squad, 5x nemesis bolter, -prey sight - 150

10x tactical squad, 10x chain bayonet, vexhilla - 145

3x skyhunter squadron, 3x multi-meltas - 135

Leviathan dreadnought, phosphex, siege claw, volkite Calivers - 305

Any advice would be really appreciated. Not sure if the problem is with my army or my tactics but 80% of my games so far have been crushing losses. The 20% which are close have been great, win or lose. 

Thanks

 

[Castellan Wulfrik]

22 hours ago, Stickyjester said:

Any advice for a struggling Night Lords player? I'm getting absolutely stomped at my local HH nights week after week and I'm not sure why. I only started playing HH with the new edition and have no prior wargaming experience which is definitely hurting me. Most games dont feel at all competitive and just arnt fun the play. I love the Horus Heresy and just want to have fun games which feel like I have a chance. 

My 2250 point list at the moment is a Terror Assault rite of war with Flaymaster:

Preator with jumppack and paragon blade - 170

Contemptor Dreadnought with gravis lascannon, fist, melta and having launcher - 220

10 x Night Raptors, 9x chain blades, 1x headman's axe - 415 + apothecary with jump pack - 60

5 x Cataphractii Terminators, combi-bolters, 4x power axe, 1x thunder hammer - 190

12x Terror squad, 5 x rotor cannons, 7x volkite chargers - 313

5x Recon squad, 5x nemesis bolter, prey sight - 150

5x Recon squad, 5x nemesis bolter, -prey sight - 150

10x tactical squad, 10x chain bayonet, vexhilla - 145

3x skyhunter squadron, 3x multi-meltas - 135 Leviathan dreadnought, phosphex, siege claw, volkite Calivers - 305

Any advice would be really appreciated. Not sure if the problem is with my army or my tactics but 80% of my games so far have been crushing losses. The 20% which are close have been great, win or lose. 

Thanks

 

Probably a mixture of both, your list isn't terrible as a general starting point, but it really doesn't play to the strengths of Terror Assault. Rather than take advantage of the early turn night fighting your list is too slow and too many of your expensive units require you to be within 24". You might be making tactical mistakes but your list is pushing you towards making those mistakes. Firstly either drop the Cataphractii or get them a transport, similarly the tactical squad isn't really achieving anything. Either expand both units and back them up with transports/ IC's e.g. apothecaries or drop them. If you do expand the Cataphractii in the future make sure you include more weapons that hit at standard initiative and don't forget we do have ways to give them Deep Strike so the transport isn't really necessary. The Night Raptors being entirely loaded out with chain blades is both expensive and lacking in versatility, swapping a few for power axes would open up more targets.

Generally though assessing what kinds of lists you are struggling against and adjusting your list accordingly will be the best way to quickly improve your results on the table whilst learning the ropes. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Like @Castellan Wulfrik mentions, the tacticals and cataphractii aren't really doing anything in the list, and you don't really leverage terror assault too well; a lot of your own units are going to suffer from the debuffs unfortunately. 

I find that terror marines are really hard to use on foot, and the main culprits of wasted points in games I lose. Unless you can get an infiltrate that has them in area terrain for the 4+ cover, and still outside 24", they tend to die as fast as normal marines, which sucks when you compare the cost of your 12 man terror unit to the 10 man tac. In a rhino, you could cruise around and try pining stuff, then re-embark with the reaction if they try to melee you. 

The contemptor could do without the havoc launcher; they're largely terrible. The fist melta is also a bit unnecessary, and isn't the best weapon to pair with the lascannon.

If you're wedded to the idea of a raptor deathstar, ask if you could count-as lightning claws; they're the best option against marines by far. I also tend to like meltas in the unit, but I also prefer msu in deepstrike, so it's a bit of a different role.

Praetor could use a thunder hammer for str 8 and brutal, which is looking far more useful against multiwound units than a paragon blade. 

Let's say you cut the worst offenders in the terrors and cataphractii, just take an extremely bare bones 10 tacs, and drop the havok launcher; you now have 563 points to spend, which is a quarter of the list. More contemptors are an easy way to pump up a list, but javelins, rapiers, skyhunters, and the like are all good units too. It hurts to say that a 9 man command squad with jump packs and double claws are 40 points less than the raptors; unless youre taking full advantage of skirmishers, bloody murder, and night vision, it might be best to go with the command for the praetor unit.  

[Runefyre]

If I'm understanding the Skirmish subtype correctly, wouldn't raptors lose skirmish if joined by a Praetor, so functionally you'd be better off with a command squad anyway?

I really wish Night Lords had access to a Jarl-esque upgrade like the Wolves have, just pay a few points for skirmish on a Praetor. 

Also Curze should have skirmish imo. 

[Stickyjester]

Wow, you've given me alot to think about and I really appreciate the thought you put into your responces.  

Will deffinatly be doubling up on contemptors and I can live with dropping the cataphractii. Im tempted to try and split my terros in half and have 2 squads of 5 with rotor cannons to really maximise pinning. 

Turning the Raptors into a command squad isnt somthing I had considered but makes alot of sence. 

I will think about the best way to use the saved points. Tempted to add in some rapiers but very unsure on the best way to use them so will do some more reading. 

Would be really interested to hear how you play your Night Lords. What deployment patters do you find work well? Whats your overall strategy for a game?

Thanks so much. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 10/8/2022 at 9:06 PM, Stickyjester said:

Would be really interested to hear how you play your Night Lords. What deployment patters do you find work well? Whats your overall strategy for a game?

It's pretty different than how you have your list structured. 

 

It mostly relies on MSU threats; 3 units of recons w/ snipers, 2 separate rapiers w/ shatter and fire, 2 separate contemptors, 2 separate javelins w/ rockets and multi melta, 2 units of raptors w/ claws and melta, curze, leviathan, vigilator. Something flexible with the last ~150.

 

One of the contemptors is in a pod and usually leads a DSA with the raptors, the rest just kind of pick their targets and use night fight to make things one sided for shooting. Use the dreads and curze to make some midfield pressure, and the raptors tend to snipe their backfield scoring.

[Beerhammer]

Hello murders and flay masters! New Talon Master here and have been spit balling a 2k list that focuses on the Warmonger Warlord Trait. Being able to ally in some SoH to cover the areas the the NL lack is a good idea. The ally HQ will be that Dark Emissary, the buffs he gives out mixed with debuffs from Terror Assualt seem like a win win. 
 

What day my fellow murders?

[Brother_Angelus]

4 hours ago, Beerhammer said:

Hello murders and flay masters! New Talon Master here and have been spit balling a 2k list that focuses on the Warmonger Warlord Trait. Being able to ally in some SoH to cover the areas the the NL lack is a good idea. The ally HQ will be that Dark Emissary, the buffs he gives out mixed with debuffs from Terror Assualt seem like a win win. 
 

What day my fellow murders?

Warmonger is really limited in it's application, since it only works when targeting Loyalists with an independent character attached, so unfortunately it's not very good.

 

If you want another shooting reaction then go with Stoic Defender.

 

I can see the perks of making your allies Stubborn, but I'm not seeing an overwhelming argument for using SoH to plug gaps in a NL list? If anything Death Guard using The Reaping RoW are probably a better combo. Particularly Remorseless heavy weapon squads as non-compulsory troops, and being able to equip your DG characters with Rad-Grenades means you can bring opponents down to T3, and hit them with Chainglaives for Instant Death. Since NL consider DG 'Sworn Brothers', their characters can join one another's units to share the effects of Prey Sight or Rad Grenades in units that would benefit.

[Beerhammer]

You bring some solid advise …. Back to the drawing board.

[oldhat]

For my Pride list, which has a Libby running with Sev and a Tartaros Command squad - what weapon seems ideal for the Libby? I am leaning towards axe, since Sev is taking challenges and the Tartaros are going in with LCs. When my guy swings, it'll be last but at least hard and AP2? Thoughts?

[Beerhammer]

What about the staff for the reach?

[Brother_Angelus]

3 hours ago, oldhat said:

For my Pride list, which has a Libby running with Sev and a Tartaros Command squad - what weapon seems ideal for the Libby? I am leaning towards axe, since Sev is taking challenges and the Tartaros are going in with LCs. When my guy swings, it'll be last but at least hard and AP2? Thoughts?

Yeah, I think you can safely run the librarian with an axe if he's got another challenge taker or a unit with Chosen Warrior to screen him. If you can get Force off then happy days for your freebie powerfist.

[oldhat]

23 minutes ago, Brother_Angelus said:

Yeah, I think you can safely run the librarian with an axe if he's got another challenge taker or a unit with Chosen Warrior to screen him. If you can get Force off then happy days for your freebie powerfist.

 

That is the plan, so I think axe it is. The other perk is that I can just use a converted Sevrn Loth. Super easy for the modelling aspect of it.

[Brother_Angelus]

2 hours ago, oldhat said:

 

That is the plan, so I think axe it is. The other perk is that I can just use a converted Sevrn Loth. Super easy for the modelling aspect of it.

Ha, I did the same thing, that Sevrin Loth model fits in so nicely with other mkIV.

 

Though I did convert up a Tartaros Libby as well, the extra wound and free power weapon felt worthwhile if he's running with other terminators anyway.

[oldhat]

15 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

Ha, I did the same thing, that Sevrin Loth model fits in so nicely with other mkIV.

 

Though I did convert up a Tartaros Libby as well, the extra wound and free power weapon felt worthwhile if he's running with other terminators anyway.

 

No room in the Proteus or I would totally do that too. It would be a good excuse to use our Tartaros Praetor for a conversion, but I think I am gonna just do that for the Command Squad leader.

[BitsHammer]

So I've been trying to work on planning out a Swift Blade list because I like the idea of murder races even if the army isn't strong. Question I have is what to do with the 5 HQ slots. I'm thinking the mandatory praetor, two heralds and a librarian (no idea on the last one). I'm thinking the Praetor can roll in a jetbike command squad, and the heralds can go on regular bikes to go with the troop bike units, but I've got no idea what to have the librarian ride, or what to do with the last HQ slot I have to fill.

 

Recommendations?

[Beerhammer]

Chaplin maybe?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Re: warmonger trait. I think a lot of the warlord traits are generally hard sells, considering how good Curze's and Sevatar's are.  Obviously not every list has a primarch, and many people like taking their praetor over the named one, but jeeze. Fear that can build up to 3? Counter attack , ignore difficult move penalty, and reroll dangerous? Rerolls 1s to hit when targeting a loyalist IC unit and fearless when allied with SoH? Ain't got nothing on mass deepstrike terminators, or 200 points for free.

[Carnivore]

Are any of you using Heralds? I’ve been running one with my maxed-out Terror Squad with good results, but I’ve been debating moving him to the Night Raptors and I just wanted to see what you guys think. Thanks!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Heralds are really good, and can help shore up the leadership of a drop for any interceptor pinning. In other armies they'd also double to help inflict pinning from fear, but night lords kinda have that covered already.  I personally haven't used one yet, since the one I have doesn't have a jump pack and doesn't lend well to getting one. 

 

I haven't had any terror marine success yet and lots with raptors, so I'd say go with them.

[oldhat]

The Raptors would lose Skirmish though, yeah? Something to keep in mind. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, oldhat said:

The Raptors would lose Skirmish though, yeah? Something to keep in mind. 

But so would the terror marines.