HH 2.0 The Kyroptera: VIIIth Legion Tactica

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pods also come in turn 2 at earliest in normal circumstances, so a vet squad in a pod would be charging turn 3. Pods are very much a thing for pure shooting units. 

I don't know how much you'd want to invest the only HS into a missile launcher squad when terror marines can get rotor cannons on top of their melee gear. I think the HS slot is better used as a dedicated damage dealing slot; las to kill most land targets, pred squadron with meltas to do much the same thing, or maybe even a kratos to give that fire power a chassis that is largely immune to return fire reactions. 

Save the pinning options for elite/fast attack flex units. Like the venerable javelin with missile launchers lol.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So the legacy and exemplary battle units dropped, and wasn't I excited to see the atrementar in 2nd.

But they got worse and not like "oh they're a bit less efficient now"; worse as in "theyre so niche you might as well just run them as legion tartaros".

If you take sevatar lists, then you can just have tartaros do the same thing, but for cheaper, because you're basically paying 70 points for the chain glaives, but also have to pay for better special weapons, with some baffling values. Why are tartaros 2x claws 10 points, but atrementars 15? But ya, more expensive tartaros in sevatar lists, especially as non compulsory, non scoring troops is very minor.

They basically need to be used in other lists where you can take advantage of the deepstrike. But still pay some wild values for that privilege and are hard to justify for me.

 

[Loquille]

I was looking forward to seeing the Atrementar updated but was left scratching my head. The loss of weapon skill and change to Cloaked in murder seems unnecessary.  

Now that's out of the way, do you guys see Recon Squads in our future, with our bonuses for fighting pinned units has their time come? 
I was playing with the idea of one or two small squads. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Recons are great. They can serve as scoring units in terror assault after you've filled compulsory with raptors and terrors. They can provide pinning support. They can outflank and melta bomb units. A fantastic unit.

They also have synergy with night fight due to shroud bombs.

[Aeternus]

Just gonna copy my rant from the other thread, but yeah, I'm pretty pissed off about that Atramentar change to WS4.

 

I'm honestly just perplexed at some of the changes, or lack of changes, in these pdfs

Mainly for the NL, as Skimask has stated, bloody hell did Atramentar get crippled. I just don't understand why - it almost feels like they noticed Contekar weren't really exciting people so instead they've now kneecapped the more melee-focused elite terminators they were contenders with? I'd assume this wasn't it, but I can't think of any reasonable alternative for the Atramentar change, especially given that they had stated they designed the units for 2.0 then ported them over to 1.0 - so why have they suddenly lost WS and had their special rule drastically changed?

Maaaaaaybe they didn't want a WS5 unit to be able to hit on 2s, but the opportunity to do so is pretty fringe (given nearly every time I've got in combat with NL either the raptors/whatever have blended the enemy into a fine red mist, or have been blended in return) - so joining a combat in progress isn't as easy as people imagine , and even then it's only for a single turn. In return, you're now being hit on 3s by every other Legion terminator unit, hell even Lerneans will hit back better since their bonus is constant.

It's just...weird. Yes they have a plethora of special rules, including deep strike, and retain their access to hammers, but the last point there has limited use on a WS5 unit meant to fight other elite units, and just from the same pdf Delivers have a WS5 statline, deep strike, battle-hardened, all for five points more, and that's without even glancing at Huscarls with storm shields for 55 points more. Contekar - y'know, the sub type of Atramentar - have WS5, and they're meant to be the shooty variant!

Again, this is where it just feels like they've undertuned Atramentar in order to push Contekar - who for 5 points more come stock with better ranged, WS5, same deep strike, chosen warriors, higher LD, and option to be taken as a HQ instead of a fringe +1 to hit. Having a quick look at the maths, Contekar deal double the damage in cc - 6.5 wounds not including rends, to the Atramentar's 3.5 if they have chainglaives.

So yeah, I just don't understand why. 

I find the characters also somewhat unimpressive - Mawdrym is still just less efficient than an equally tooled up primus medicae, even if he has some marginal surviveability, Kheron is sill in power armour which was irritating last edition, but doubly so now that even centurions come base with artificer (yes he still has his nifty 3++ in cc and fnp, but now with his WS debuff gone he's even more open to just being on the wrong end of a power fist/hammer/paragon blade that a praetor can take for the same price as him) but at least his weapon is now fancier, and Thole? I just dislike him :P I disliked him before when he was equally reliant on getting a rend with a sub-par weapon to trigger an attack with a budget paragon blade, and I dislike him still, given his cc gimmick is the same - a worse version of Armillus Dynat.

I'm going over the rest of the rules, there's some things which again are laughable (750 point baneblades chassis), some things which are weird (Caestus being unable to ram or deliver a 10 man terminator unit), and some things which are just...fine.

But at the end of the day, at least I don't play Salamanders...after all, WS4/BS4 is fine for a 215 point chaplain, right?

 

 

(I appreciate this is a very salty take. I just really wanted Atramentar to be decent  ) 

[Aeternus]

Didn't even notice that 15 point lightning claw cost. It definitely feels like they've seen how popular they are now, and just upped the cost here to reflect that - as they've also done with the caedere weapons for the WE destroyers that are now 15 points. I just can't ever see Atramentar being better than either Contekar (and I hate that), Terminator command squads for elite cc duty, or standard terminators for general purpose use. Deep strike is good, yes, but the unit with it still has to stand on it's own merits at least a bit - and I don't think Atramentar do. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The joke with deepstrike is that of course sevatar gives deepstrike to all the other main terminator types. The unit you're encouraged to take the terminators with undermines their only draw over their competitors.

Terror assault undermines the fear, cloaked in murder is a sad bonus that rarely comes into play, non-com troops without line of sworn loyalty is irrelevant. Just so confusing. 

[Aeternus]

Yeah, they're just all over the place, whether you take them in the army that they heavily suggest or not. Very disappointing. Also kinda irritated that none of the pdf characters, or atramentar, have Bloody Murder - so placing any of them with terrors, or sevatar with atramentar, means you lose out on those bonuses. (yes I know Curze can give them it, but I don't always want to take him despite how cost effective he is)

At this point I'm hoping there was a mistype and the Atramentar are actually meant to be WS5, having had another look at Deliverers (same points cost as atramentar before and after, but stayed WS5). Don't know why they decided to change the Cloaked in Murder rule from forcing disorganised charges, as if the WS change is intended I bet that's the rule to blame, and the desire not to have 2+ hits. Honestly think a better way to do it would have been to keep WS5 and switch cloaked in murder to counting as 1 WS higher defensively for a turn when joining an ongoing combat, or something similar- representing them using the other legionnaires as shields as the rule states (with an appropriate points increase). Hell, I'd rather just the old rule come back and they go back to WS5.

So much of our stuff works really well together for a thematic 'set up' of multiple rules and units over different phases, then Atramentar just bloody undermine a lot of the whole thing as you've said.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Aeternus

[Lautrec the Embraced]

>Atramentar

>WS4

...

Btw all others Termis from exemplary battles got WS 5. Look how they massacred my boys...

[Lautrec the Embraced]

3 hours ago, Aeternus said:

I find the characters also somewhat unimpressive - Mawdrym is still just less efficient than an equally tooled up primus medicae, even if he has some marginal surviveability, Kheron is sill in power armour which was irritating last edition, but doubly so now that even centurions come base with artificer (yes he still has his nifty 3++ in cc and fnp, but now with his WS debuff gone he's even more open to just being on the wrong end of a power fist/hammer/paragon blade that a praetor can take for the same price as him) but at least his weapon is now fancier, and Thole? I just dislike him :P I disliked him before when he was equally reliant on getting a rend with a sub-par weapon to trigger an attack with a budget paragon blade, and I dislike him still, given his cc gimmick is the same - a worse version of Armillus Dynat.

Mawdrym somehow got even worse, a miracle truly. Still kickin' with this lovely 2 attacks on S3 with no way of Ap2 and he lost FEAR (how...? how does your chief torturer, the flaymaster, loses even Fear?), Fearless and my favourite rule of his, FnP rerolls so really, in my opinion, he was bad but but now he's horrible.

 

Ophion's better than he was I think, still suffering from apparent lack of Artificer armours in NLs quarters but hey, FnP and 3++ left unchanged, And 4++ for shooting added. Revenant's pretty reliable and I don't remember him having a melta bomb. Wait, he also got Relentless... Umm, good for him I guess.

And what does this sentence even mean: "[...]result in a single S4, AP - wound being inflicted upon the model Engaged in a Challenge". Do they meant 'S4 hit, that you roll for wounding'? Or a 'wound that you gotta save that we provided with strength of 4 for the purpose of ID'. Is it just my dementia kicking in or have they botched it?

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Lautrec the Embraced

[Charlo]

I'm actually glad they aren't just *another* WS5 terminator unit. They're rules make them effective bullies, which is what they are. They're not meant to win in a straight up fight, they're meant to play dirty. It's thematic and decent.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Their rules make them less effective than normal terminators unless you can justify deepstrike costing 70 points, outside of sevatar lists where they're "better".

Justify that 70 point base inflation and 10ppm over tartaros. You can never fully take advantage of their rules, because either theyre non-com troops with sev, or they have deepstrike. Getting the bonus to hit requires another units worth of points to even trigger, pushing their silly points cost even further. 

Theyre terrible bullies for their points and it's unthematic for the vaunted 1st company to be worse than any other terminator units in the legion. 

 

 

 

 

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I agree with @SkimaskMohawk, I don't mind them being somewhat expensive or weaker than some others, it would be completely normal thing, no one claims they are the best of all terminators but currently it's just puzzling.

53 minutes ago, Charlo said:

I'm actually glad they aren't just *another* WS5 terminator unit. They're rules make them effective bullies, which is what they are. They're not meant to win in a straight up fight, they're meant to play dirty. It's thematic and decent.

I'd agree with such sentiment if we were talking about some unknown 'made up' Terminator unit for the purpose of an exemplary battle that they wanted to stand out. But Atramentar is a known formation, it's the Elite 1st Company led by someone who made sure they are up to some standard. Bullies?  Not meant to win in straight fight? They are the guys that will stand and fight if their Captain commands them to while fighting dirty because duh,it's their modus operandi. It doesn't mean they suck at melee otherwise...

 

Ws4 would be passable if some rule really balanced it. But it doesn't, it's mostly worse, only equal/maybe better on charge if conditions are met. it would be better to just drop the rule and give them ws5. So overall, I *think* not giving them Ws5 is weird when it's such a discerning thing about elite CC terminator formation. I don't know if this would be enough to make them worthwile but no one (or at least, I don't) asks for some crazy OP stuff . It would be just less of an insult. They used to be expensive but interesting and unique in heresy 1.0.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Lautrec the Embraced

[Cdp1492]

I've been trying to figure out a good heavy support slot for my Pride Of The Legion Sevatar list. Thinking either a Leviathan Dreadnought with the melta lance and claw to come in a Pod first reducing that first scatter and then helping Crack open vehicles for the other deep striking terminators or a spartan to roll out with contekar and sevatar in it. Any other worthy inclusions and what are you guys running in the heavy slot?

[T_X]

Took a 3k Terror Assault list out for the first time this edition, and had positive thoughts:

• Night fighting, especially 3 turns of it had a big impact. Knowing what conditions I'd get to impose on my opponent allowed me to make some beneficial strategic and tactical decisions. I spent 60 points on prey sight upgrades and while it's an annoying tax it paid off nicely.
• My ranged units could shoot past 24" without fear of return fire, and inside that range had the benefit of superior ballistic skill. My opponent set up his units first, which allowed me to pick and manage the enemy ranged units I'd be exposed to. The result was to deploy all in on a flank, either keeping out of range from anything dangerous or to exploit terrain as I advanced.
• I attacked with night raptor squads and an assault squad with an embeded jump praetor. Night raptors are awfully overpriced right now but also do their job better than anything else our legion has access to. Units were 10 strong, which felt like a good size. Night fighting and 2 wound models were enough to get me into combat in good shape, and retain that outnumber bonus. Didn't feel the need for any ranged weaponry in the squads, am curious to hear if anybody's making use of that relentless rule by taking plasma. Seems like a point sink to me. Squad loadouts were a mix of chainswords and chainblades. These did well enough, but I think lightning claws are the optimal choice, may proxy next game to see if it's a meaningful difference. Units had excellent mobility because of their jump packs, excellent lethality from their AP 3 breaching, improved charge distance, improved initiative and bloody murder bonus when I managed to get that combo off.
• Assault squad was just OK. It kept up with the night raptors, but wasn't otherwise useful. Line can be important, ablative wounds are nice, but it's just not lethal enough even with the power weapons. Power axes for 10 points each feel like a waste, I plan to reallocate those points to plasma blasters on other units in the future. Attached praetor was a welcome source of AP 2 at initiative, which is always a useful tool to have in the toolbox.
• Jump pack squads were backed up by a pair of contemptors. These guys are hard to kill and good at killing. Wish they could keep up, but them lagging behind actually worked out in my favor when I was hit with an outflank assault counter-punch. Other than relative slowness, they are I think an auto-include for this type of list.
• Took a 10 man squad of cataprhactii loaded out for AP 2 killing, and stuck a cataphractii librarian with them. While I miss our native deep strike on terminators, taking a spartan as a dedicated transport allowed some armor in without infringing on that precious heavy support slot. The librarian was assigned divination, and was also selected as the warlord. This combination allowed for precision shots and strikes which also inflicted pinning. 4++ and 2 wound models are hard to kill, the spartan let me put them right into the opponent's center of gravity, and the outnumber bonus in addition to the ones already mentioned meant that they could charge into the strongest enemy unit and kill it after softening it up with shooting. The spartan also being big enough to block line of sight to anything I wanted to protect was a nice bonus.
• Javelins were an OK harassing unit, was able to take two shrouded saves because of the warlord trait and their harbingers of the legion rule makes great use of that. That they can stand up to las and meltas is a huge boost to suitability. Missiles and multi-melta were a good combo, allowed me to either hunt light / medium armor, or take shots at units which I wanted to whittle down and pin.
• Heavy support choice was a deredeo, which performed admirably. Aircraft interception is important in larger games, and sundering rending autocannons can forcefully debus vulnerable infantry for the night raptors. All that was outperformed by the aiolos missiles, which offer AP 3 pinning and don't even need line of sight. I can't imagine not taking this dreadnought in the future, it's so versatile and effective. Might be fun to swap it for a fire raptor down the line which would feel more thematic.
• Prey sight ignoring shrouded is extremely powerful, don't overlook it. Night fighting and fear on all units was great- leadership 8 units getting brought down to 6 meant a failed leadership roll was more likely than not. I didn't start anything in deep strike or outflank reserve, and don't think I will in the future. Obviously there are benefits to that type of assault, but I just don't like the risk of rolling for reserves. Curious to hear if anybody's had a good time with a deep strike heavy list. Kind of sucks that terror assault still feels like the only worthwhile RoW, but whatever I had a good time playing it.

[xxxjtmxxx]

do you have no terror squads?

[T_X]

No terror squads, I couldn't think of a good reason to bring them. Not line, single wound, not bulky, average weapon and ballistic skill, poor mobility other than infiltrate. Might be fun to have them with rotor cannons in a dreadclaw, but I didn't find that close range shooting was a high demand niche. Might be a better fit for zone mortlais where they'll get preferred enemy on nearly everything and face smaller squad sizes..

 

If others are having success with them I'd like to hear about how they were set up and used.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Cdp1492 the melta lance Levi in pod is very strong, and anchors the terminators very nicely. I personally used a Spartan for my command squads ride in 2500 last Sunday, and found it quite capable, though I did support it with 2 javelins, 2 seperate quads with shatter, and some other assorted anti tank across the pod contemptor and terminator squads.

@T_X 

I found the night vision added up in the aforementioned pride list with sevatar, but my first list of 2nd was terror assault with curze. And then it feels frankly unfair. Still gotta buy it for tanks, but the amount of points you save is enormous, as is the ability to pierce shroud. He's one of the few primarchs to give purchasable gear for free like that, and you can easily end up saving over 100 points because of him.

Night raptors aren't overpriced, but coming off their criminal underpricing of 1st, it's easy to think that. WS 5 and jump packs give them a lot of utility alone, as does the 30pts of night lords wargear baked into their profile. Imo their main strength is being able to deepstrike themselves onto the field and force pinning with -1 from their fear, and another potential -1 from night fight. And that activates bloody murder for their ensuing charge. You certainly do need to spend points on special melee weapons to really benefit from the WS and attack values if you plan to use them as melee beat sticks. The only reason I can think of investing in plasma guns is if you did a cheeky plasma+pistol squad to deepstrike, shoot to hopefully force a morale (at that same -2) and then charge and inst-destroy if they fail to rally.

Terror marines can be made to be a cheap rotor cannon squad in a rhino (an option they gained in 2nd), which combined with preferred enemy will average a pinning test from 5. Or, they can outflank and charge off the board edge as a melee unit. They also have about 15 points worth of legion wargear incorporated into their profile. 

I think your unwillingness to use either deepstrike or outflank is what's affecting your perception of the special units. Both methods are very strong, and deliver your melee units at full strength. They aren't 100% reliable, but it's a 3+ into a scatter for the initial deepstrike and a 3+ into a 2+ for outflank. That's more reliable than not, and putting ~250 into each won't break the bank, even of both screw up. I mentioned it earlier, but the pinning aura that both deployment methods give is particularly good with night lords in terror assault; terror marines coming off an edge will force it at -2, and can charge whatever does or doesn't pass it. 

 

[Galron]

Im still in the rebuilding stage but have some ideas I am working towards. I am currently thinking 2-3 small terror squads with 3 rotor cannons each. Their primary job will be to pin squads for the follow on melee units to charge. Also looking at a unit of 11 Night raptors and 20 assault marines. Since I am working on remembering how I did my Night Lords which I am about 95% figured out using both an older assault marine from my 1.0 army that got vatted and a new model from the box set as a terror squad dude, wow there is a scale creep issue. My terror marine seems almost taller than a new chaos marine, but it might just be the bat wing helm.

I havent settled in yet on an HQ or any of the other units aside from finishing out another Tac squad to complete my compulsory core. Not in too big a hurry though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 rotor cannons should be enough to average an unsaved wound against 3+ armour and force pinning, so that sounds like a solid plan for the terrors. 

Lots of solid HQs this edition. Psykers tend to be good, vigilator is good, Warmonger is good, etc...

[GarvielEisenhorn]

I'm feeling a little lost on where to go with my WiP Night Lords army. So far I've completed 15 Night Raptors (14 chainglaives and 1 headsman's axe) and 30 Terror marines (all with volkite chargers). I have a Praetor, two Contemptors and a Deredeo in a box unbuilt. The 2k list I was working in for the last edition now doesn't include any scoring units since its not a default troops thing anymore.

It seems a shame that to fit scoring units in I'd have to cut down on the only stuff I've actually finished.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The unpleasant truth is like all edition changes, a lot of lists don't survive the transition when directly ported. Almost every 1st edition veteran who used an elite-heavy list has had to reconfigure it in some way to get more scoring units.

The good news is that Terror Assault let's you get easy access to the very good recon squad. 85 points for infiltrating, range reducing, scoring troops. And you can just swap some volkites out for bolters on your terror marines. Other than that, terror assault is a little nebulous in terms of direction; up to 3 turns of night fight supports ranged units very well, and allows your melee units to make it up the board with fewer casualties. It also synergizes incredibly well with deepstrike assault and fear, but I've talked about that a lot earlier in the thread.

 

[oldhat]

Thoughts in Vigilators?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Extremely good.  

Relentless let's you move and shoot. Infiltrate let's you position and join recons/terrors. Mastercrafted and marked for death makes the single shot as reliable as possible outside of automatically succeeding. The range allows you to intercept outside of the deepstrike pin aoe. Finally, the shell shock combos extremely hard with fear and night fight; an intercepted unit will be taking a leadership test on a -2 up to a nigh-unpassable -6. 

But, as good as he is, there's a lot of good hqs these days. Warmonger, librarian, delegatus, master of signals, Herald to name a few consuls; all br ing a lot of utility, and you have to weigh it behind a praetor unlocking rites and command squads. 

[Brother_Angelus]

47 minutes ago, oldhat said:

Thoughts in Vigilators?

They play very well into the Legion trait vs pinned units, and being able to turn off Reactions (by pinning them) is always helpful. For 95pts it's not a huge investment either.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Brother_Angelus