HH 2.0 The Kyroptera: VIIIth Legion Tactica

[Uberlord Gendo]

How many line squads are people generally running?

I'm trying to put together a Terror Assault (gasp, I know!) and I'm looking at a trio of recon squads with nemesis bolters. Together with a pair of maxed out Terror Squads (4 rotor cannons and some chainblades) and a big squads of Raptors, I'm thinking that'll take up about half my points.

I'd been planning on a big squad of Contenkar, a pair of Scorpius, the mandatory Vigilator, and some dreads/sabers/landspeeders, but it occurs to me that I could shift a terror/Raptor squad to elite and take a tactical squads just to get numbers.

What do people think?

[GarvielEisenhorn]

4 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

The unpleasant truth is like all edition changes, a lot of lists don't survive the transition when directly ported. Almost every 1st edition veteran who used an elite-heavy list has had to reconfigure it in some way to get more scoring units.

The good news is that Terror Assault let's you get easy access to the very good recon squad. 85 points for infiltrating, range reducing, scoring troops. And you can just swap some volkites out for bolters on your terror marines. Other than that, terror assault is a little nebulous in terms of direction; up to 3 turns of night fight supports ranged units very well, and allows your melee units to make it up the board with fewer casualties. It also synergizes incredibly well with deepstrike assault and fear, but I've talked about that a lot earlier in the thread.

 

I knew that my list wouldn't survive the transition unchanged, that wasn't a surprise, I just wasn't expecting to lose scoring on all of my intended troops choices. Also, since they're completely built and painted, swapping volkite for bolters isn't really an option for me.

I'm thinking of putting my Night Lords in the "maybe later" category for now.

[xxxjtmxxx]

thats frustrating. 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, GarvielEisenhorn said:

I knew that my list wouldn't survive the transition unchanged, that wasn't a surprise, I just wasn't expecting to lose scoring on all of my intended troops choices. Also, since they're completely built and painted, swapping volkite for bolters isn't really an option for me.

I'm thinking of putting my Night Lords in the "maybe later" category for now.

Mostly comes down to the glue. If it's super glue, then you can use clippers to snap them off at the glue point; tossing them in the freezer really helps make the bond brittle. If it's plastic glue or something really heavy-duty, then ya, you're a bit stuck.

The other thought is that since you only had 2000 points, you could just add scoring units as you expanded to the more standard size games of 2500 and 3000. A Herald makes the unit he's with scoring, and a command squad makes your master of the legion score. Pretty easy, and there's tons of marine bodies floating around for cheap these days.

[Balthamal]

So I'm currently toying with the idea of running a Pride list with Sevatar and a whole bunch of Terminators (at least 10 cataphractii/atramentar/contekar each) but beyond that am struggling to put something together, and the new restriction on heavy support is pushing me towards either a predator or sicaran squadron and a contemptor talon to carry some heavier guns. The contradiction lies with taking land raiders and/or spartans as DTs to get around said restriction but then that doesn't make use of Sevatar's warlord trait. Thoughts?

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 7/20/2022 at 5:03 PM, Balthamal said:

So I'm currently toying with the idea of running a Pride list with Sevatar and a whole bunch of Terminators (at least 10 cataphractii/atramentar/contekar each) but beyond that am struggling to put something together, and the new restriction on heavy support is pushing me towards either a predator or sicaran squadron and a contemptor talon to carry some heavier guns. The contradiction lies with taking land raiders and/or spartans as DTs to get around said restriction but then that doesn't make use of Sevatar's warlord trait. Thoughts?

A sevatar-based pride is going to look a bit different from a normal pride list. As you noted, the deep strike kind of removes the necessity for transports. I ended up still spending a heavy support slot on a Spartan for my termi command squad, but you can circumvent that with a dedicated Raider.

I really wouldn't do squads of 10 terminators. Doing squads of 5 means an opponent needs to commit multiple units against them instead of the minimum 1, and also gives you more flexibility in your own targetting. It's also a huge points investment to get 10 contekar and 10 atrementar, both of which....aren't very good. The contekar can at least break units with their shooting and run them down while they're fleeing, but the atrementar are worse tartaros, especially in a sevatar list. Trimming the amount and type of terminators should free up points to have a loaded elite slot with melta or las contemptors.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Here's something I just realized; raptors have skirmishers, giving them a coherency of 3". This lets them cover a pretty obnoxious area when you deepstrike them, and makes a disruption more of an annoyance than anything else; a unit of 5 can occupy 21.3" when fully strung out.

[Brother_Angelus]

Not sure if I've just been spiking super hard on my rolls, but the Headsman's Axe is proving to be a real menace in challenges. Instant Death at initiative has been doing work against other praetors.

[Balthamal]

On 7/22/2022 at 2:17 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

A sevatar-based pride is going to look a bit different from a normal pride list. As you noted, the deep strike kind of removes the necessity for transports. I ended up still spending a heavy support slot on a Spartan for my termi command squad, but you can circumvent that with a dedicated Raider.

I really wouldn't do squads of 10 terminators. Doing squads of 5 means an opponent needs to commit multiple units against them instead of the minimum 1, and also gives you more flexibility in your own targetting. It's also a huge points investment to get 10 contekar and 10 atrementar, both of which....aren't very good. The contekar can at least break units with their shooting and run them down while they're fleeing, but the atrementar are worse tartaros, especially in a sevatar list. Trimming the amount and type of terminators should free up points to have a loaded elite slot with melta or las contemptors.

Yeah you make a sound point on the numbers. Targetting is a change of pace compared to 40k and such. As far as the contekar and atramentar go, rule of cool, nothing more but the points could be used to give Sevatar a better crew for the party bus. I think in any list with 1 heavy support slot you're looking at Contemptor talon of at least 2/3 loaded with las/melta. Laser destroyer rapiers were great too but still unsure how they stack up against gravis las now - exoshock is good but getting through Spartans in the first place is hard enough and dreads don't care about it either way 

[oldhat]

Ok, as I keep tweaking lists while I build my army (a dangerously expensive thing to do), I was mulling over the value of Rotor squads vs Recon Squads w/ Nemesis bolters. Sure, they're different in many ways, but they've essentially got a similar role - Pinning. As I try to squeeze in more antitank, I find it harder to add in our expensive Terror Squads with Rotors just for that purpose. Volkite seems to still be a solid option and I'd rather opt for that and let the Recons pin stuff at range (and also target characters hoping for Rends).

Right now, by dropping Rotors I was able to put in two Javs with Las/MM. Not sure if that's ideal, but it does add more potential antitank - which is otherwise in my list relegated to Hellstrikes and Kraken missiles, which are a finite resource.

Thoughts on the Rotor vs Recon? What about on Javs as a way to squeeze in more antitank into Terror lists with the limited Heavy slot options.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think if you want to take rotors on terrors, you just take the amount that will average a failed save for a particular armour save. For 3+ it's 3, but for 2+ it's about 5. Probably best to stay at 3 and just beat up on power armour though, and you squeeze in at 130 for a unit of 5. Unfortunately, recons still score, so I think it's better to have them and fill the compulsory slots with raptors in terror assault.

Las and multimelta is really good on javelins. 3 high quality anti tank shots a turn for that price is more than fine. That being said, the cyclone is twinlinked and gives you a large blast that pins and AA capacity on top of its anti tank missiles. I've used 2 in every list so far, and theyve never dissapointed. They're also backed up by a couple of quad launchers with shatter shells and whatever I put in my heavy support slot. I don't really feel like I'm missing anti tank in my lists personally; just gotta use the fast attack, elite and dedicated slots creatively.

 

[oldhat]

18 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I think if you want to take rotors on terrors, you just take the amount that will average a failed save for a particular armour save. For 3+ it's 3, but for 2+ it's about 5. Probably best to stay at 3 and just beat up on power armour though, and you squeeze in at 130 for a unit of 5. Unfortunately, recons still score, so I think it's better to have them and fill the compulsory slots with raptors in terror assault.

Las and multimelta is really good on javelins. 3 high quality anti tank shots a turn for that price is more than fine. That being said, the cyclone is twinlinked and gives you a large blast that pins and AA capacity on top of its anti tank missiles. I've used 2 in every list so far, and theyve never dissapointed. They're also backed up by a couple of quad launchers with shatter shells and whatever I put in my heavy support slot. I don't really feel like I'm missing anti tank in my lists personally; just gotta use the fast attack, elite and dedicated slots creatively.

 

I just feel like we're paying such a premium for those Terror Squads if all they are doing is pinning units when the much cheaper Line Recon squads do it about as well. I'll have to test this out when I get my Recon dudes built.

My current list has a Fire Raptor in the heavy slot. I think that plus a Primaris w/ Kraken should do good work. I could opt for a Xiphon, which has antitank capabilities and has the bonus of Talons of the Legion. It is literally the same cost as a Jav w/ Las & MM too. That way I can put a hurt on an enemy flyer before it can do anything vs being reactive.

[Slips]

Gotta remember that Terror Squads with Rotors who are danger close can make any pinning test they force a unit to take quite brutal. But, recons with snipers need a unit with fear or other LD modifiers nearby to achieve that level of "youre essentially auto-failing that pin"

[oldhat]

17 minutes ago, Slips said:

Gotta remember that Terror Squads with Rotors who are danger close can make any pinning test they force a unit to take quite brutal. But, recons with snipers need a unit with fear or other LD modifiers nearby to achieve that level of "youre essentially auto-failing that pin"

Most other components of a Terror list are going to be close. Raptors and Volkite Terror (and in my list an Assault Squad w/ Curze) will all be near targets that will need to be pinned. Hopefully that is enough.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@oldhat well I'd never take terrors as just a mid-range pinning unit.

Take a unit of 10, sprinkle a couple of rotors, and throw them in a rhino (or outflank them on foot); use them as a bully unit that can proc its own bloody murder. Like, just add a couple of rotor cannon guys to your volkite unit and presto. You have supreme flexibility in the weapon options the terror marines get, so you might as well mix it up properly.

I really don't rate having all the dedicated anti tank on flyers. You give up a turn of shooting in the best case scenario, and lessen the pressure on the opponent compared to when they have to deal with anti tank stuff protected by night fight. 

Remember for the xiphon that combat air patrol doesn't let you skyfire (as it's locked behind the shooting phase), so you'd be hitting opposing flyers on 6s. Combat air patrol also locks your flyer out of the game until an enemy flyer comes in, and you have to use a reaction allotment to enable it. Javelins can just shoot on turn 1, and then opt to intercept a flyer that arrives with their cyclone launchers, getting far more value and not holding a reaction allotment hostage.

Not sure why you'd have curze with assault marines with his movement 8. Not like he buffs the unit anymore either.

[oldhat]

1 minute ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@oldhat well I'd never take terrors as just a mid-range pinning unit.

Take a unit of 10, sprinkle a couple of rotors, and throw them in a rhino (or outflank them on foot); use them as a bully unit that can proc its own bloody murder. Like, just add a couple of rotor cannon guys to your volkite unit and presto. You have supreme flexibility in the weapon options the terror marines get, so you might as well mix it up properly.

I really don't rate having all the dedicated anti tank on flyers. You give up a turn of shooting in the best case scenario, and lessen the pressure on the opponent compared to when they have to deal with anti tank stuff protected by night fight. 

Remember for the xiphon that combat air patrol doesn't let you skyfire (as it's locked behind the shooting phase), so you'd be hitting opposing flyers on 6s. Combat air patrol also locks your flyer out of the game until an enemy flyer comes in, and you have to use a reaction allotment to enable it. Javelins can just shoot on turn 1, and then opt to intercept a flyer that arrives with their cyclone launchers, getting far more value and not holding a reaction allotment hostage.

Not sure why you'd have curze with assault marines with his movement 8. Not like he buffs the unit anymore either.

Oh lord. So Combat Air Patrol is essentially worthless due to the Skyfire/Zooming timing. That is amusing. Thanks for catching that.

Fair point on the flyer-exclusive anti-tank. I think the Javs will help offset that.

As for Rotors/Volkite and mixing weapons in units - it is mostly an irrational dislike of mixing weapons, but you make a good point there. A trio of Rotors doesn't too heavily diminish their Volkite firepower and opens up Pinning.

For Curze & Assault Squad - they move the same distance when running, so really they are just ablative wound to keep him alive as long as possible while he gets into position. Plus its another Line unit. Also, FNP with an Apoth for even more durability. Curze can always pop off and shred stuff on his own once he is in position, while the Assault Squad can jump over to an objective if needed with their mobility.

Another question - how has a single Pod Levi been working? On the times I don't want to bust our the Fire Raptor, I was thinking that would be a solid alternative.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Uh, they don't move the same distance when running.

Units always add the lowest initiative to their movement when running, so the assault marines would be going 16" and curze would be going 12".

Separately, curze's nightmare mantle gives him 12" for his run bonus instead of his initiative equivalent of 7". Which would be a total of 20".

 

Re: the pod Levi. Well mine has a grav flux, so I haven't used it in the full rules lol. I'd assume with a melta lance that it'd cause a lot of problems for enemies it drops close to. In a game with the playtest rules, it absolutely crushed a unit, but that was when the grav flux was still ap2.

Edited August 11, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[oldhat]

4 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Uh, they don't move the same distance when running.

Units always add the lowest initiative to their movement when running, so the assault marines would be going 16" and curze would be going 12".

Separately, curze's nightmare mantle gives him 12" for his run bonus instead of his initiative equivalent of 7". Which would be a total of 20".

 

Re: the pod Levi. Well mine has a grav flux, so I haven't used it in the full rules lol. I'd assume with a melta lance that it'd cause a lot of problems for enemies it drops close to. In a game with the playtest rules, it absolutely crushed a unit, but that was when the grav flux was still ap2.

Sorry, similar enough in movement as to be compatible was what I meant. It was the only unit I saw that matched Curze's mobility well enough to act as ablative wounds and to also give an extra Line unit to the list.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I guess it can work fine enough then, though youd need to start him at the front of the unit and kinda slingshot him. Just really disrupts the charging if you want to keep them together (though I guess you can just have the remnants of the assault squad leave for an objective when it's a turn you can get an assault off).

[oldhat]

Thoughts on using a Vigilator? In Terror Assault list specifically. Put him in a Recon Squad or run him solo? 

Overall, what are folks running for their Terror lists now that the edition has been out a while?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Vigilator is fantastic. If you run recons with snipers already, I'd put him somewhere else and maximise pinning instances. With relentless he can just walk around to get los and shoot units. 

I think terror assault has a lot different permutations. I keep on trying for the leadership version with lots of pinning, but maybe I'll try a melee rush down one soon. I've just been trying not to use more than one dread and open the flood gates you know.

[oldhat]

I don't even run a Dread in my list. Would you just run it up the table? Or Pod?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Usually in a pod; they anchor well as the first unit in a drop pod assault and help to disrupt target priority. 

[oldhat]

6 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Usually in a pod; they anchor well as the first unit in a drop pod assault and help to disrupt target priority. 

How many Pods are you usually bringing? I have so much infiltrating already, Pods didn't appeal but it does seem like the optimal choice for a Dreadnought. Though with NF maybe they'd be fine hoofing it? Might get them more turns of shooting.

[SkimaskMohawk]

48 minutes ago, oldhat said:

How many Pods are you usually bringing? I have so much infiltrating already, Pods didn't appeal but it does seem like the optimal choice for a Dreadnought. Though with NF maybe they'd be fine hoofing it? Might get them more turns of shooting.

Just the 1. I put a double grav contemptor in it, so it helps make up for the short range. 

I have barely any infiltrators in my list, aside from backfield recons; it's mostly focussed on the deepstrike with raptor units. Really goes to show how open ended terror assault is.