HH 2.0 The Kyroptera: VIIIth Legion Tactica

[oldhat]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Just the 1. I put a double grav contemptor in it, so it helps make up for the short range. 

I have barely any infiltrators in my list, aside from backfield recons; it's mostly focussed on the deepstrike with raptor units. Really goes to show how open ended terror assault is.

Yeah, I have two Terror Squads and two Recon Squads that Infiltrate.

Double Grav was the way back when the Cortus was around. Those still worthwhile? I was thinking double Melta just to make sure I had more anti-tank - since otherwise it is just a pair of Javs and a Kraken Lightning.

[SkimaskMohawk]

58 minutes ago, oldhat said:

Yeah, I have two Terror Squads and two Recon Squads that Infiltrate.

Double Grav was the way back when the Cortus was around. Those still worthwhile? I was thinking double Melta just to make sure I had more anti-tank - since otherwise it is just a pair of Javs and a Kraken Lightning.

Its still a solid choice for stripping hull points and dread wounds; 2+ and you're forcing invul/cover. But if you're lacking a lot of anti tank, the melta might be a little more decisive.

I know my list had 2 separate shatter rapiers, 2 separate javelins with melta, HK and cyclones, the dread, and a laser vindi, on top of all the lightning claws and chainblades that can beat up on vehicles as well. That still left me room to flex in scouts with melta bombs and 5 outriders with plasma. So I had anti tank covered for my list lol. 

[Stickyjester]

New HH player here. Played 8 games now and having a ton of fun. Picked the Night Lords because I found them so interesting in the books but I'm finding the tactical side of playing them a bit challenging. I have won games with them but the wins are close and the losses are absolute stomps. Played an IF player this week, my 10 man Night Raptors squad plus Preator was wipped off the board in 1 shooting phase. 

My local group is running more lower point games while people make new legions so i usually cant take much more than 1500 points

My current units:

Preator with Jump pack and Headmans axe

10 x Night Raptors with chainblade

Apothecary with Jump pack

3x 10 man Recon squad with nemesis bolters (can also be tacticals with chain beyonets) 

2 x 15 man Terror sqaud, 5 x rotor, 10 x Volkite

Leviathan Dreadnought, double seige claw, phosphex and volkite

Contemptor, fist, melta, lascannon

Any advice anyone could give me as to best use what I have would be much appreciated. 

Ave Dominus Nox

(Apologies if I'm doing this wrong)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'll do a quick note that low point games have wonky outcomes, as you can absolutely run into units you have no hope of dealing with. 1500 is a bit below the recommended minimum of 1750 (and imo 2000 is the real minimum), so you're right in the trouble zone.

You uh, definitely fell into the night lord beginners trap of "accidentally all anti-infantry". Unfortunately, if that's all your collection, you only really have the dreadnoughts as sources of reliable quality damage, and those are mostly in melee. Best advice would to be always take the dreads, take 2-3 sniper squads with 5 guys (and augury), take the raptors and maybe consider splitting to two units of 5 with a melta in each. Maybe ask to play the axe as a thunderhammer.

The best strategy is to use snipers to pin heavy supports at night (pick out the seargents and Aug scanner to really sink them) and line up the dreads with their elite melee units. Use the raptors to hit the vulnerable areas (usually the power armoured scoring units) and uh, terror marines as fire support? Oh and definitely take night vision to abuse the benefits (and ignore shroud).

[Stickyjester]

Haha, well thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the honesty. 

What would you suggest to improve? I enjoy the kitbashing apsect of the hobby so I'm not afraid to edit my existing models. do you have a link to a more competative Night Lords list?

Thanks for your help.

[SkimaskMohawk]

All you really need to improve your list is really supplement the very functional core. Things like javelins, speeders, and jetbikes bring some fast anti tank at some very cheap prices; rapiers also provide anti tank from the elite slot. Taking dedicated AT units allows the dreadnoughts to focus on fighting elite melee stuff without having to also be all the anti tank. You could even do a foot praetor and command squad, and use them for a dedicated land raider to get around the heavy support restriction of terror assault (I assume that's what you play, you have 30 support squad models, 40 models that are otherwise elites, and 1 heavy support lol).

The things to actually change would maybe be a melta gun per 5 raptors, and possibly lightning claws instead of chain blades (though those are useful for count-asing chainswords when saving on points).

Both oldhat and myself have 3000 point lists in the heresy list subforum that share the same core of yours; I had a game earlier today where I absolutely demolished my opponent, so the list style is definitely good. It just needs a little help being well rounded, and that's very common for new night lords players lol.

[BitsHammer]

So I've been playing catch up on 30k NL (life has been busy to the point I built a whole 5 Cataphractii between when the board came back from updates and today), and I've got some general thoughts:

*Night Lords feel like they lean mainly into the horde Astartes build a lot. They want to out number, but only infantry units and bulky units can do that (vehicles only count as 10 to see if they're outnumbered), so big units seem key to help Talent for Murder. Consider either max sized units, or at least units running a few extra models. That said this comes with a need to balance our moral. 

*Pinning is a must for the army just because it helps unlock bonuses for models with good guns that can't outnumber other units. Rotor Cannons and Frag Missiles are a staple for lists in my opinion. This can be especially important for vehicles (who are only count as 10 models to see if they're outnumbered but don't do it in reverse) and dreadnoughts (who for some reason don't at least count as 5 models). At least predators can be run in squadrons of up to 5 to let them outnumber other vehicles if you need something to hunt tanks, dreadnoughts and maybe Primarchs (like how many lascannon shots *can* Ferrus catch in one turn exactly?).

*Curze doesn't cost 450 points. Yes that's what his datasheet says, but for every infantry, dreadnought or cavalry unit you take with the Night Lords legion type subtract 20 points for the free Prey Sight and Bloody Murder he hands out to them. 5 units? That's 100 free points you can basically count as discounted right out of his points cost. He pairs well with Night Raptors thanks to their high movement and want to be in melee as well, so consider pairing them up so Curze can have some ablative wounds.

*Terror Squads are basically a Tactical Support Squad crossed with a Despoiler Squad. They can have up 15 models, mix in weapons like rotor cannons (which cause pinning tests at -1 which stacks with their fear 1 aura) plus infiltrate and Precision Strikes (6+). Plus we can take them as troops in our good Rite of War

*Despoiler Squads love rolling with Curze. Spite of the Legion and Blood Murder both give bonus attacks for charging pinned or falling back units, and with their paired CCWs (chainsword + bolt pistol) a unit of 10 can do up to 41 attacks with shred (plus Talent for Murder). 

*Tacticals want bayonets (probably chain bayonets because shred on top of the S bonus). With +1S and Talent for Murder doubling up you can wound T5 models on 3s with a re-roll to wound. T4 models get wounded on a 2+ instead making it easier punch into other Astartes. This leans into the horde factor as well. With Curze the unit also gains Talent for Murder meaning they'll get bonus attacks for charging pinned units. While they can't pour dice on like Despoilers, they can clean up wounded units, especially if you've broken the unit or pinned it.

*Lastly Cataphractii feel like the anti-tank/-dreadnought/-terminator unit due to their inability to sweep or run, while Tartaros feels like it leans into other infantry better due to better mobility and the ability to sweep. Sevatar as your warlord gives them deep strike and gives them a buff when they do so, so if you want to bring a Pride of the Legion list, definitely look into taking him.

On a related note but not Night Lord specific: I really wish bikes were good. T5 and Bulky (2) or Bulky (3) would do so much for making them worth using. I admit I may end up collecting them in the future (especially if we get plastic bikes) but in the mean time the only Legion specific Rite of War I'm looking at running is Terror Assault.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like building to always try and take advantage of the legion trait is another easy to make mistake. A talent for murder is very strong, no doubt, but it's a nice bonus; you don't want to over invest in units/models just to try and always have it on. 

For example, you can a big blob of spoilers in a curze list, and pin their target unit to charge in with 100 attacks. But all that averages about 15 unsaved 3+ or 7.5 unsaved 2+; kind of a poor showing for the investment into them.

It's better to take generically good units. Terminators with thunderhammers will appreciate the +1 to wound against dreads/str bonus against vehicles. Rapiers with shatter and fire rounds can do anti tank and pinning support, and a battery of two will count as 12. Javelins primarily hunt tanks with the missiles and melta, but can go pinning if they need to. 

I think terrors are a little hard to use, but I'd definitely advocate for a unit with a few rotors over a support squad. Still a hard sell.

Probably best to just bite the bullet and go full chainswords on tacs if you're going to do a blob of 20. The extra attack averages more wounds than the strength, and while it's expensive, it's only 25 points more than their 1st edition versions, for far better. But still, they're objective fodder at the end of the day and get pounded by any serious melee unit.

[BitsHammer]

ATFM has a lot of surprising applications. 5 models with heavy bolters? Well now you're wounding Dreadnoughts on 4s and can potentially wound Astartes on 2s. 

That said, I'd rather take despoilers than pay for chainswords on Tacticals. But if I'm taking Tacticals the bayonets are a must have to help them keep units off their objectives or take objectives from wounded line units more effectively. I prefer chain bayonets simply because I think shred is worth the point per model but even basic bayonets are worth it for the strength buff that allows us to potentially wound other MEQs on 2s.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea ATfM can really change the math on some things, though heavy bolters would need 5s for dreads, not 4s.

I played against a buddy's world eaters, and he had tac blobs with axes. What made them so annoying was the fury off reactions, be it intercept or overwatch. They then had a good amount of decent strength attacks to back up that overwatch. Despoilers are dirt cheap, and you can throw them towards your opponent without really sacrificing your points, but tacs force something to go clear them when fully geared up. 

Lets say your 20 tacs get charged (or charge but disrupted by the reaction) by ws 4 power armour, and talent for murder applies:

-hands average 2.29 failed armour saves 

-bayonets average 2.88 failed armour saves

-chain bayonets average 3.36 failed armour saves

-chain swords average 5.95 failed armour saves

Each point spent results average a ~0.5 increase in failed saves, until you get to the chainsword; theyre just the most efficient choice for melee weapon. Imo if you want the tacs to blob up and be a nuisance, you rake the sword. If you just want them in rhinos putting around, take the other stuff.

[BitsHammer]

Unless I'm missing something, Contemptors are T6, so that's 5s for S5 which gets +1 to wound from ATFM which makes it 4s. 

[Slips]

21 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Unless I'm missing something, Contemptors are T6, so that's 5s for S5 which gets +1 to wound from ATFM which makes it 4s. 

Im looking at my book and they are quite clearly T7 with Levis being T8. Are you thinking of the boxdreads?

[BitsHammer]

56 minutes ago, Slips said:

Im looking at my book and they are quite clearly T7 with Levis being T8. Are you thinking of the boxdreads?

I think I was. 

Well good thing I didn't try that in a game.

[Carnivore]

So I’m revamping my Night Lords for 2.0, and I’m struggling with the weapons load-out for my Praetor. I despise Paragon Blades, and refuse to use them on my Praetor. I run a Thunder Hammer on my Space Wolves Cataphractii Jarl and have good success there, but I want something different for my Night Lords Cataphractii Praetor. My question, for the fellow Night Lords with more table time and math hammer skill than me, is this: which weapon best suits a Night Lord Praetor to maximize his threat?

I’m a big believer in Sx2 weapons, so I’m leaning towards a Headsman’s Axe for that at initiative(!), but I hear it struggles against hard targets (Terminators and heavy armor), which typically is my Praetor and his retinue’s main target given our lack of other tools besides Dreads to deal with most non-infantry stuff. I also like the Escaton Power Claw, but for its price and what it does, would I be better off with the humble power fist?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the good news about your dislike for paragon blades is that they're frankly terrible now. All the best units went up a wound/are dreadnoughts, the praetor lost digital weapons, and paragons took a 5 point hike because. You can't blend a unit of terminators with 7 attacks any more, so it lines up with the over nerfing that the other strong stuff got.

The bad news is that ya, the headsmans axe suffers into 2+ armour and is also 30 points for some reason. The thunderhammer puts it (and the paragon blade) to shame for the same cost and should be the default weapon for praetors imo. Depending on custodes on daemons, maybe consider the escaton, but probably pass against only marines.

[BitsHammer]

What's the opinion about chainglaives since we have a terminator Praetor model that comes with one?

[Brother_Angelus]

46 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

What's the opinion about chainglaives since we have a terminator Praetor model that comes with one?

That's a Headsman's Axe, isn't it?

I maintain that Chainglaives are bad and generally shouldn't be taken unless you're intentionally going for fluff over crunch. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Until daemons come out and start rocking t9 and 10 again (khabanda stats show this is going to happen) there's no reason ever to take a glaive. Just call it a blade and get the bonus attack. Or, on an IC, literally anything else; 25 points is heinous for shred and breaching.

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

That's a Headsman's Axe, isn't it?

I maintain that Chainglaives are bad and generally shouldn't be taken unless you're intentionally going for fluff over crunch. 

I thought it was a heavier duty chainglaives to be honest.

EDIT: Looks like I got the idea from the FW site:

Edited September 10, 2022 by BitsHammer

[Brother_Angelus]

Managed to fight Sigismund and 5 Templar Brethren to mutual destruction with 5 Contekar and a Tartaros Praetor yesterday. Keenly felt the lack of AP2 from the regular guys and Praetor's Headman's Axe, but Chosen Warriors stopped Sigi from punking out any characters, and the Escaton Claw came in clutch to absolutely ruin the unit and shave several wounds off Sigi himself after that.

I'd like to get some more Escaton into the list, but they're pretty expensive for characters and perhaps wasteful on WS4 Terminator Sergeants.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Brother_Angelus

[BitsHammer]

Yeah, something I've come to realize is that we don't really have any specialized gear for dealing with TEQ or low save character models. I feel like a splash of stuff like power fists in Terminator squads or chainfists might help a bit, even if we don't go nuts on filling them into a list.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You always wanted to take stick to the good wargear for generalist purposes, and take the glaives for more niche application.

Back then, if you really wanted, you could brute force your way through saves with fear/ws5 and the trait letting you hit on 2s. But the changes to wounds , ws, and the trait all make that strategy unviable. 

if the unit can take fists or hammers, it probably should. Toss the claws/blades/glaives on units like raptors that can pick their targets.

[BitsHammer]

Yeah, we have a lot of things that can shred through regular infantry, but special consideration should be taken to not over indulge in that kit and make sure we take kit for taking on other units.

[oldhat]

Looking for some more input on my PotL list, please!

Edited September 29, 2022 by oldhat

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 9/29/2022 at 4:13 PM, oldhat said:

Looking for some more input on my PotL list, please!

I'll just feedback here lol.

The biggest issue with terminators teleporting is the master of signal with vox disruption. One of the units will get in, but the other two have good odds of being screwed. I think keeping the cataphractii as troops will allow them to have impact even if you want to footslog since they can fight for the mid-field objectives. 

Otherwise, there's a lot of eggs in baskets. You can sledgehammer a lot of stuff, but might find it hard to deal with msu, or not get hammered by reactions if the snipers fail. 

Night also sucks. In my last sevatar pride list, I just threw something together at the end and forgot to pay for night vision. Big mistake lol. -1 bs is hard to deal with, and your spartan has its range slashed.

Maybe drop the tartaros into a command squad and the Spartan into a dedicated raider. Take some night vision and maybe get another contemptor in there; you get over 300 spare points to play around with.