HH 2.0 The Kyroptera: VIIIth Legion Tactica

[oldhat]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

 

@oldhat ya terrors are basically a complete liability unless they're used as a pseudo support squad. They're just way too expensive. For 15ppm you can get an assault destroyer; same statline, has faster movement and deepstrike instead of infiltrate and outflank, loses PE but has rad grenades, actually benefits from ATfM easily, and if you make them both 20ppm for volkite you double the amount of shots. And people don't really run destroyers lol. You just can't really fight other elite melee units, and can't afford to trade 20-30 point models with chaf. 

 

Exactly! They're just too pricey. They need either some stat boosts or a big decrease to be worthwhile. That's why I'm looking for alternatives. Cataphractii are a nice hammer unit we can point at other TEQ, which I didn't really have a good answer for in my lists as it was. I just worry that like 5 basic Catas and a Warmonger aren't exactly a huge threat to other elite TEQ units and that's about all I can fit without really changing the list up a lot.

[SkimaskMohawk]

17 hours ago, oldhat said:

 

Exactly! They're just too pricey. They need either some stat boosts or a big decrease to be worthwhile. That's why I'm looking for alternatives. Cataphractii are a nice hammer unit we can point at other TEQ, which I didn't really have a good answer for in my lists as it was. I just worry that like 5 basic Catas and a Warmonger aren't exactly a huge threat to other elite TEQ units and that's about all I can fit without really changing the list up a lot.

 

I'm sure I've complained about it before in this thread, but v3 playtest gave them and raptors +1 WS during night. That's definitely a bit strong on the raptors, but it could have been tweaked for just the terrors. Or +1 initiative like in 1st. The only time I've gotten results from is when I had curze with a blob and just tanked on him, which feels terrible. Its the way it goes I guess; raptors are great, terror assault and curze are fantastic when combined, sevatar opens up another playstyle, and the legion trait is solid. We gotta pay with some substandard units and a rite. I just wish they weren't so bad that they lost any interest I had in them, along with atrementar. 

 

As for dealing with termies, sadly I just use contemptors and curze for that. Maybe some snipers and melta to chip down for the raptors to charge; 5 claw raptors can chew through 4 cataphractii with about two casualties. 

 

[oldhat]

So here is what a I am tinkering with specifically now that Terror Squads are looking less and less useful:

 

HQ:
Vigilator
[95]

 

Librarian
Telepathy
Jump Pack
[125]

 

Warmonger
Headsman's Axe
[135]

 

Elites:
Contemptor Dreadnought
Lascannon & Meltagun
[210]

 

(2) Apothecary
Jump Packs
[120]

 

(8) Cataphractii Terminators
2x Power Fists, 2x Chainfists, 3x Power Axe, Thunder Hammer Sergeant
[330]

 

Troops:
(12) Assault Squad (Apoth, Curze, Libby)
2x Power Axe, Artificer Armor
[189]

 

(12) Night Raptors
6x Twin Lightning Claws
Artificer Armor, Headsman's Axe
[450]

 

(5) Recon Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

 

(5) Recon Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

 

Fast Attack:
Legion Javelin
Lascannon, MM
[105]

 

Legion Javelin
Lascannon, MM
[105]

 

Heavy:
Leviathan
CML, Drill, Phosphex
Drop Pod
[415]

 

Primarch:
Konrad Curze
[450]

 

[2999]

 

The Apothecaries are still pending more testing, but having the buff on two of the anvil units seems helpful - they need the longevity. Contemptor is also part of the anvil. Leviathan and Cataphractii are the hammer. Javs are dedicated antitank. The Contemptor and the Levi also do this duty, but can cause other sorts of trouble too. There is a decent spread of antitank in the list, I feel, which is a fun surprise for a NL list. Recons and Vigilator help pin units and snipe Sergeants. Libby helps Konrad's squad by pinning targets. Warmonger accompanies the Catas and adds a nice beatstick to the unit, though being AP3 is ...meh. Tempting to just give him a Thunder Hammer (same points).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Looks like a solid list @oldhat, though I'm eternally sceptical of headsman's axes. Maybe drop those, get some meltas for the raptors, and fill in some other points like the 5th sniper rifle on the recons? Your anti tank is very solid without them.

 

On a different note, I played another two games this week.

 

One was on Thursday and I took my terrible terror marine list; I was lazy more than anything and forgot that I'd need to unpack and repack my other one. Plus still a little burnt out on the other list. Well it was a disaster; angron in crimson path, even more shooting backing it up with a second cognis signum, terrible deployment on my part. Not much to say about the game except how gamey pulling the guys in base contact to break allocation is. 

 

So having gotten thoroughly stomped, I thought about what would have made that list better, without having to spend money. A telepathy librarian was the immediate answer, with two turning it into an incredibly frustrating experience; I immediately reworked my raptor list instead to have 2 jump pack telepathy librarians in it, at the cost of the dread drop pod and a unit of recons.

 

Spoiler

+++ Curze 2500 ((HH V2) Horus Heresy (2022)) [2,495Pts] +++

 

++ Crusade Force Organisation Chart (LA - VIII: Night Lords) [2,495Pts] ++

 

+ Expanded Army Lists +

 

Expanded Army List Profiles:: Exemplary Units On, Legacy Units On

 

+ Allegiance: +

 

   VIII: Night Lords

 

Allegiance: Traitor

 

+ HQ: [375Pts] +

 

Centurion [140Pts]: Librarian [45Pts], Psychic Discipline: Telepathy, Psychic Hood [15Pts]

Librarian [80Pts]: Artificer Armour, Warhawk Jump Pack [20Pts]

Bolt Pistol

Chainsword: Chainsword

 

Centurion [140Pts]: Librarian [45Pts], Psychic Discipline: Telepathy, Psychic Hood [15Pts]

Librarian [80Pts]: Artificer Armour, Warhawk Jump Pack [20Pts]

Bolt Pistol

Chainsword: Chainsword

 

Centurion [95Pts]

Vigilator [60Pts]: Artificer Armour

Bolt Pistol

Chainsword: Chainsword

Vigilator [35Pts]

 

+ Elites: [1,055Pts] +

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon [175Pts]

Contemptor Dreadnought [175Pts]: 2x Combi-Bolter, Gravis Power Fist with in-built ranged weapon, Gravis Power Fist with in-built ranged weapon

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon [190Pts]

Contemptor Dreadnought [190Pts]: Combi-Bolter, Gravis Melta Cannon [5Pts], Gravis Power Fist with in-built ranged weapon, Helical Targeting Array [10Pts]

 

Night Raptor Squad [260Pts]: Artificer Armour [10Pts], Huntmaster [25Pts], Meltagun [15Pts], 4x Night Raptor [100Pts], 5x Pair of Lightning Claws [50Pts]

 

Night Raptor Squad [260Pts]: Artificer Armour [10Pts], Huntmaster [25Pts], Meltagun [15Pts], 4x Night Raptor [100Pts], 5x Pair of Lightning Claws [50Pts]

 

Rapier Battery [85Pts]: 2x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolter, Quad Launcher - Frag [20Pts], Quad Launcher - Incendiary [5Pts], Quad Launcher - Shatter [20Pts], Rapier Carrier (& Gunners) [40Pts]

 

Rapier Battery [85Pts]: 2x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolter, Quad Launcher - Frag [20Pts], Quad Launcher - Incendiary [5Pts], Quad Launcher - Shatter [20Pts], Rapier Carrier (& Gunners) [40Pts]

 

+ Troops: [290Pts] +

 

Reconnaissance Squad [145Pts]: Augury Scanner [10Pts], 4x Bolt Pistol, 4x Nemesis Bolter [40Pts], 4x Recon Legionaries [48Pts]

Legion Recon Sergeant [22Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Nemesis Bolter [10Pts]

 

Reconnaissance Squad [145Pts]: Augury Scanner [10Pts], 4x Bolt Pistol, 4x Nemesis Bolter [40Pts], 4x Recon Legionaries [48Pts]

Legion Recon Sergeant [22Pts]: Bolt Pistol, Nemesis Bolter [10Pts]

 

+ Fast Attack: [325Pts] +

 

Javelin Squadron [100Pts]: Bolt Pistol

Javelin Land Speeder [100Pts]: Multi-Melta [10Pts]

Cyclone Missile Launcher

 

Javelin Squadron [100Pts]: Bolt Pistol

Javelin Land Speeder [100Pts]: Multi-Melta [10Pts]

Cyclone Missile Launcher

 

Seeker Squad [125Pts]: Augury Scanner [10Pts], 4x Bolt Pistol, 4x Kraken Bolter, 4x Legion Seeker [60Pts]

Legion Seeker Sergeant [10Pts]: Artificer Armour [10Pts], Bolt Pistol, Kraken Bolter

 

+ Primarch: [450Pts] +

 

Konrad Curze [450Pts]: Warlord

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 

Note that I didn't include the free wargear from terror assault or curze.

 

I brought this to play against blood angels and told him in advance that I thought the list was extra mean, and we could workshop his a bit. This would help that game be playable, and also help him decide on a tournament list for may to start getting the finishing odds and ends for. His list ended up being something like this:

 

Spoiler

No rite.

 

2x herald, jump pack 

 

2x 5 dawn breakers, perdition axe 

 

2x 5 paladins, perdition axe 

 

2x 10 tacs, vexilla, nuncio, artificer, rhino, searchlight

 

2x javelin, las, multimelta 

 

1 incadeus, fists 

 

1 land raider explorator, twin las

 

The plan for him is to deepstrike a variety of stuff, and use the fearless and stubborn 10 to avoid getting pinned, while also forcing out pinning at up to -3. Once it's all deepstruck, any time the units charge they get +1 WS from sang, and ws6 is a very good breakpoint. Against my list it'd be a bit harder due to hallucinations going through stubborn and being immune to fear and night fight, but I figured it would have a pretty good shot at it. 

 

The game was wild and came down to basically us both forgetting the other primarch had some form of super-run. He was very happy with how his list operated, and how it would just be a lot better when he isn't getting crushed by night for 3 turns, able to take shrouding saves, able to inflict fear, and probably not getting pinning locked. Similarity, I think my list will do even better when not playing against a wall of fearless and stubborn 10, and it still felt crushingly strong; him passing three LD4 tests was kinda what made it a game (though I did pass all my pinning tests from his DSA on ld6/ld6/ld7/ld8 to set that up, so it goes both ways). 

 

So my overall thoughts on the list is this: playing an opponent without investments in fearless or very high leadership is a guarantee win. Being able to react psychic weapon to pin a unit for 2 turns, on top of the normal weapons causing pinning, allows you to pick apart an army at your pace and really helps with target priority. It basically falls into skew list territory, with the counters being lots of heavy vehicles and leadership stuff like ultras, word bearers, and death guard. 

 

Edit: added my list

Edited January 15, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Lord Morgrim]

Do you find the multiple small units work well? I thought due to NL rules it’s better to outnumber the enemy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, Lord Morgrim said:

Do you find the multiple small units work well? I thought due to NL rules it’s better to outnumber the enemy.

 

It depends. I honestly don't really think about the legion trait all that much, and tend to focus on fear and night fight more instead. 

 

The downside to my style is that when opponents start to heavily tech into fearless and night vision, then I'm basically just stuck with what's on the tin.

[Lord Morgrim]

Instead of running a retinue with Sevatar I am thinking about a unit of vets with twin claws mounted in a proteus with sev and a librarian. The thing i keep coming back is the lack of invuln on vets so i thought rather than a command squad make them vets and add in an apothecary, am i right that apoth cannot join a command squad?Probably terror assault for the rite and go big on raptors and add a punisher sicaran for more pinning.

I want to love Atrementar but  the WS4 really only makes the, useful for bullying units. Seems a sham to not take advantage of Sevatar's abilitiy to give termies deep strike.

[Lord Morgrim]

Actually i cant take the proteus so maybe a termite for them with Sev and a librarian with them

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can always just buy a land Raider as a heavy support choice, and leverage your fast attack and elite slots for other anti tank. The termite would prevent them from charging until turn 3 at the earliest, though would be dedicated. 

 

The issue both vets and command squads have is being t4 with 2 wounds. The best gun in the game is str9 ap2 and cuts through any armour, wounds, or FNP you can load them with. Evading is the more reliable damage mitigation, so sticking with the commands and their 2+ is better IMO.

[Lord Morgrim]

I was planning on taking a punisher for my heavy slot but i will have a rethink. Couple of sabres with neutron cannon might work.

 

[Lord Morgrim]

If i take the command squad its just easier to take cataphractii for the invul. The power arnoured command squad just seems so fragile with out a fnp or invuln

[Mana]

Two weeks after release I had the AOD boxset in my hands, and there it sits waiting, mocking me to start building the army. The plan: Night Lords, It's all about the lightning really, I want to try a more glowing like paint scheme with a darker blue and dark silver trim, I think it looks great. And I kinda like Curze as a character and the legion, so it works for me.

I'm more of a painting and collecting guy, but I do hope to get some games eventually. Another thing, I have 0 experience with HH, but I do like the rules.

 

So.. I'm trying to build a list and have some questions:

- A Delegatus with the Stoic Defender WT with 10 seekers+kraken bolters in a rhino: would that have some use?

 

- Would you use a veteran squad in a terror assault detachment? They have WS 5 and 2 wounds, so I would use them for melee, and put them in a rhino.

 

- Are the Mark III thunder hammers (2 come with the kit) too small for cataphractii terminators?, would they look too small? Because I can kitbash the hammers in the arms of the cataphractii with the power swords.

 

- I suppose the 10 terminators and the spartan would be a death star, they seem more of a unit that will bog down other units than actually doing some work. I would build them with 4x LC, 2x chainfists or TH and 4x PF.

-I also was considering getting another dread, because the one in the AOD box is missing a sprue, and that would allow me to have full options, and I kinda like the miniature enough to have 2. Would 2 in a list be fine? (aka people won't hate me?)

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, Mana said:

Two weeks after release I had the AOD boxset in my hands, and there it sits waiting, mocking me to start building the army. The plan: Night Lords, It's all about the lightning really, I want to try a more glowing like paint scheme with a darker blue and dark silver trim, I think it looks great. And I kinda like Curze as a character and the legion, so it works for me.

I'm more of a painting and collecting guy, but I do hope to get some games eventually. Another thing, I have 0 experience with HH, but I do like the rules.

 

So.. I'm trying to build a list and have some questions:

- A Delegatus with the Stoic Defender WT with 10 seekers+kraken bolters in a rhino: would that have some use?

 

- Would you use a veteran squad in a terror assault detachment? They have WS 5 and 2 wounds, so I would use them for melee, and put them in a rhino.

 

- Are the Mark III thunder hammers (2 come with the kit) too small for cataphractii terminators?, would they look too small? Because I can kitbash the hammers in the arms of the cataphractii with the power swords.

 

- I suppose the 10 terminators and the spartan would be a death star, they seem more of a unit that will bog down other units than actually doing some work. I would build them with 4x LC, 2x chainfists or TH and 4x PF.

-I also was considering getting another dread, because the one in the AOD box is missing a sprue, and that would allow me to have full options, and I kinda like the miniature enough to have 2. Would 2 in a list be fine? (aka people won't hate me?)

 

Seekers are a good unit and 5 average a dead seargent/vox/special weapon. 10 should let you deal with a whole slew of those upgrades at once. Stoic defender pairs really well with them, and the extra shooting phase reactions is valuable. 

 

Veterans are weird to talk about. They're a very good unit...when you know what you're building against. But if you specialize them into the wrong thing they're kinda meh. Still almost always better than terror marines though. 

 

You might have seen the whole debate about dreads being strong or not, but the general rule of thumb is to keep to 1 dread per thousand points, getting a bit looser as you scale up.

[Galron]

Just theory crafting on a list with Sevatar. Very tight for points using Terror Assault. 

I wanted to bring Sevatar with a Tartaros retinue in a land raider. I kind of want to use the Spartan we all have sitting around from the box set. I have a 9 man cataphractii squad deep striking in. Two raptor 5 man squads, 10 seekers in a rhino, recon squad. Rather than have a lone piece of heavy armor I added a second tartaros squad in a land raider. I also have the ubiquitous dreadnought and a lascannon HSS with an apothecary in the backfield. Is it worth dropping both land raiders and retinue and just bringing a spartan and a few more tartaros?

Essentially it is in an easier to read format

version 1

 

Sevie

retinue with 5 tartaros terminators in a land raider

5 Tartaros terminators with a land raider

 

This part doesnt change and didnt go too into detail on upgrades.

9 Cataphractii with 4 melta combis, 4 chain fists, grenade harness

Apothecary

Night raptors x5, glaive, 3 twin claws, melta

Night raptors x 5 glaive, 3 twin claws, melta

recon x 5 nemesis

Seekers x10 in a rhino preysight

Heavy Support Squad x10 lascannons preysight

 

Version 2 

Sevie (no retinue)

10 Tartaros in a Spartan with flare shields

[Brother_Angelus]

You're not benefiting a great deal from Sev with either option. He's obviously still a powerful combatant, but his trait means terminators need to be numerous and deep struck.

[Galron]

Theres 19-20 terminators in the list. The Cataphractii are DSing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the point is that sevatars trait gets the most effectiveness the more terminators that get put in deepstrike. Just one unit can be replicated by a warmonger, for fewer points and no warlord trait commitment.

 

It can honestly be a hard warlord trait to build around, because while terminators are durable and can deal with a lot, they're not scoring, take up elites slots, and can get bullied a bit by the WS 5 units. So pride is often taken to get around the scoring and foc, but that bottle necks your FA and HS slots; you need to hit critical mass of terminators, but also still have decent scoring and have ranged stuff.

 

IMO the best way to make pride work is by investing in a lot of indomitus. They don't get to deepstrike, but they do score, and are dirt cheap; they're 175, but that includes the 10 ppm fist. You can take a large amount of deepstriking terminators with whatever weapons you want and still have a bunch of terminators to sit on objectives and be generally durable. Sev+20 cataphractii with hammers+15 indomitus is basically 1700, leaving plenty of room for dreads, land Raiders, or whatever else you want to support them even if you play 2500 instead of the more common 3000.

[oldhat]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

IMO the best way to make pride work is by investing in a lot of indomitus.

 

Booooooooooooooooooooo! That is the one suit of armor I think doesn't belong in 30k!

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, oldhat said:

 

Booooooooooooooooooooo! That is the one suit of armor I think doesn't belong in 30k!

 

They've been part of the heresy ever since the Fists were referred to having used them and Iron Hands having tinkered on em. I don't particularly like the 4th edition era terminators for the models, but that doesn't change how effective their rules can be.

[oldhat]

13 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

They've been part of the heresy ever since the Fists were referred to having used them and Iron Hands having tinkered on em. I don't particularly like the 4th edition era terminators for the models, but that doesn't change how effective their rules can be.

 

Rules schmules! They look so out of place! Same for Mk7 armor. It's probably the only place I'm a purist for the Heresy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 minute ago, oldhat said:

 

Rules schmules! They look so out of place! Same for Mk7 armor. It's probably the only place I'm a purist for the Heresy.

 

I've used a fair bit of mk7 in my iron warriors and it basically comes down to the bits in particular and how it's painted. If all the mk7 are rocking an Aquila, bling, and a number of purity seals with a clean paint job it looks like a 40k army. But if you have a kinda rag-tag assortment of marks, use plain mk7, and basically make a bunch of scavanged/hybrid suits with a gritty scheme then you'll never even notice them

 

So for indomitus, if you use the more plain loyalist ones and get rid of the embossed symbols, add some flayed skin and trophies, swap the storm bolters for combis, and paint em up the same as the rest then they'll fit in perfectly.

[Brother Sutek]

50 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I've used a fair bit of mk7 in my iron warriors and it basically comes down to the bits in particular and how it's painted. If all the mk7 are rocking an Aquila, bling, and a number of purity seals with a clean paint job it looks like a 40k army. But if you have a kinda rag-tag assortment of marks, use plain mk7, and basically make a bunch of scavanged/hybrid suits with a gritty scheme then you'll never even notice them

 

So for indomitus, if you use the more plain loyalist ones and get rid of the embossed symbols, add some flayed skin and trophies, swap the storm bolters for combis, and paint em up the same as the rest then they'll fit in perfectly.

I'm slowly converting my 60+ Deathwing terminators from 40k to 30k. It's a labor of love as I doubt I'll ever use all of them and there is so much more to do for Dark Angels. Stripping the models then removing everything...I won't do that with my metal ones as cutting and sanding those would be insane. Will have to come up with something else.

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 minutes ago, Brother Sutek said:

I'm slowly converting my 60+ Deathwing terminators from 40k to 30k. It's a labor of love as I doubt I'll ever use all of them and there is so much more to do for Dark Angels. Stripping the models then removing everything...I won't do that with my metal ones as cutting and sanding those would be insane. Will have to come up with something else.

 

I'm going to go for printing. Theres some really nice files that hit that 30k medium, and it's cheaper than pretty much any option. 

[Brother Sutek]

5 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I'm going to go for printing. Theres some really nice files that hit that 30k medium, and it's cheaper than pretty much any option. 

I'd do that as well but if I did my wife would skin me. New models for things I don't have she has no real objections to. If I start doubling my terminators while having almost 100 Deathwing... In my defense I started playing in 2nd edition and Ravenwing and Deathwing were what excited me and I own a lot of them. Reworking the Ravenwing was easy for the most part but Deathwing have been put on the back burner. I've been looking for ideas on how to just cover the shoulder pad without it looking pants. Pride of the Legion with Deathwing and Ravenwing would be small but fun.

[Galron]

Currently painting a force, once I get the blue right, of 30k and 40k terminators. I might use the chaos terminators with less silly shoulder pads. I dont know what to do about the twin trophy racks. On one hand, night lords out of all the legions would be sporting them. On the other hand nothing says 40k chaos like giant spikey bits. Also converted a Night Raptor from a chaos raptor. Once you sand down the spikey bits and use the less mutated parts, standard marine shoulder pads and non-chaos heads, they look pretty good and sizewise are on par with the new power armor guys instead of the super slender dudes that FW sells. That and if I wanted, I could buy two squads of 10 for what FW sells for 10 and have about 50 bucks to spare. Just have to 3D print some chain glaives.