HH 2.0 The Mournival: XVIth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the Sons of Horus in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[Marshal Mittens]

Reavers have changed a bit! No jump packs, no chain swords, everyone can have hand flamers!

 

How do you all plan to use them? Are they better than veteran squads still?

[Lord Zharak]

I've been playing around with the idea for Reavers to keep them cheap to beat out other semi-elite squads with their statline, chainaxes, and legion trait and maybe a few power fists depending on how big you want to go.

 

If you're going to running a huge squad of them in a Spartan or Kharybdis it's probably worth fitting in a good number of lightning claws just do bump up their lethality against harder units. I wouldn't invest too much into shooting upgrades, that roll can be done better by other units in my opinion.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Lord Zharak

[Dark Legionnare]

Pretty sad all those volkites and banestrike bolters I made and magnetized for them are not possible anymore by merit of "The kit doesn't have those options in it" alone is the only reasoning I can decipher GW made that decision?

That said, 10 Reavers running around with an Apothecary, two power swords, and 1 PF has done immense damage in both of my 2.0 games so far.  The one game with a Chaplain tagging along with them was the best for the Reavers, especially with the power-maul now being AP3.

The other game, they had my "Wolf of Luna" praetor running around with them and that was pretty brutal for making them blend more with those bonus attacks, and said Praetor, also carve up even more.

TL;DR: Don't underestimate their amount of attacks, 2W, precision strikes, paired up with a FNP and the SoH -1S in melee.  No worrying about PF's causing ID or ignoring FNP.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[Noserenda]

Is the melee boost for Reavers worth the loss of flexibility/options of Veterans? 

[panascope]

They don’t really have a melee boost compared to Vets. Power Weapons being only 5 points means a full squad of Power Weapon Vets only costs 10 points more than a 10-man Reaver Squad with no upgrades. If you’re simply looking for mechanical efficiency I’d call the Chainaxe wielding Reaver Squad a Vet Squad with the Carsoran Power Axes. 
 

Reavers’ additional special rules: Counter-Attack and Precision Shots/Strikes really aren’t good enough to build around, although I do sort of like the angle of hitting them with Death Dealers, then getting them with Overwatch, getting lucky and sniping out an Apothecary or similar, and then getting a bonus attack when they charge you. It’s not horrible but I’d prefer to be turning on Rage in support of a squad of Justaerin.
 

Reavers’ utility comes in two parts: their ability to become Line under the Black Reaving Rite of War (which is fantastic and does everything you want unlike Pride of the Legion), and to take 15 models rather than the normal limit of 10. If you’re not building your Reaver squads with these ideas in mind I don’t think they’re going to do very much that a Vet squad wouldn’t do better.

It’s a bit of a shame really, we’re fresh into another edition and Reavers are already being outshined by Veterans. I can’t help but think losing the Jump Pack option was an omission because the math doesn’t really work for Reavers without them.

Edited June 25, 2022 by panascope

[Uberlord Gendo]

And Black Reaving doesn't currently work right thanks to the rules for the Master of Signal's Vox Disruption Array.

Though with Black Reaving, I'm not sure how to kit them out anyway- the desire to have multiple squads to charge is in opposition to the fact that short of land raiders, I can't think of a good way to get them around given their lack of firepower and jump packs.

[panascope]

Given the premium you pay for the base load out I’d keep them as cheap as possible, and just bank on getting there with 15 Chainaxe guys getting 5 attacks each. WS5 and S5 Shred actually produces pretty good throughput. 

[prime-alber]

Any example lists that you guys are trying for 2.0? 
I want to play a long march list with 2x cataphractii in land raider, justaerin in spartan, 2x12 tacticals in rhino and 2 sicaran. I only need the new proteus with the assault ramp 

[panascope]

I played two 2k games last night with the following list, losing the first and winning the second:

Delegatus with Carsoran Axe

Master of Signals

2x 15 Tac Marines with Bayonets, Artificer Armor and Power Fist on the Sergeants

10x Vets with Carsoran Axes, PFist/Artificer on the Sergeant. They were in a Drop Pod with the Delegatus and an Apothecary

7x Justaerin Terminators with a mix of weapons, including 2x Dual Lightning Claws

Contemptor with Kheres in a Drop Pod

Leviathan with Drill/Grav Flux Bombard in a Drop Pod

The first game was a disaster, my Deep Strike came in disordered and I called it after that because my position was untenable. The Vox Disruptor can really hose you, I don’t think I’ll start with him on the table in future games.

The second game was much closer, we took it to 6 turns and I won on Attrition, my opponent falling off his objective after some good shooting from my Vets.

I’m going to start controversially here: dreadnoughts are far better on paper than they are in the game. It’s easy to outclass them in melee and probably the best thing you can do against an opposing dread is to charge it if you have any sort of competent melee option. In my case, Sevatar ripped off something like 4 wounds from my Leviathan in the first round of combat, and the rest of the tac squad took off 2 more with their krak grenades. A Talent For Murder certainly helped my opponent but I still lost wounds far quicker than I anticipated, even going after Sevatar. A5 is obviously good but it’s not totally crazy to go from 5 Attacks to 3 Hits to 2 Wounds and suddenly your 270 point monster just killed two tac marines in a combat. 

The Drop Pod Vets weren’t great either, although I sort of anticipated that. They’re a huge threat and my opponent began wiping them off the board with a Missile Launcher Heavy Support Squad the second he was able to. I used the Traitor warlord trait to up my S and T to 5 on the Delegatus to try and stop the ID wounds but I rolled two 1s in a row and forgot the FNP rolls so bad dice got me there. 
The Justaerin were great, as always. Tons of attacks, extremely resilient, and no characters meant Sevatar’s challenge-based Instant Death rule didn’t get turned on. The Combi-Banestrikes even coughed up a couple kills. 

Surprisingly the Tac Squads were pretty good, especially for the points. At one point I Intercepted one of my opponent’s Terminator Squads, then hit them with Death Dealer, and then Overwatched them, all with Fury of the Legion. I didn’t wipe the squad or anything but even killing 2 Terminators felt pretty good, and kept them from totally wiping me out in combat.

Overall I felt pretty good about the second game. My legion rule was great for the Justaerin, and let them take on even big blobs of infantry and characters that you might not want to at first glance. Black Reaving giving them Deep Strike is fantastic.

I don’t think I’ll cut the Leviathan quite yet, but he’s definitely on the chopping block. My hope is that ATfM giving my opponent a bonus to his wound made him look more vulnerable than he really is, but the Leviathan is very expensive despite not having a ton of shots or attacks to show for it. I’d rather have had a second squad of Justaerin.

[depthcharge12]

What are your thoughts on equipping Justaerin now? Are Carsoran axes worth it since they seem more rounded to deal with MEQs and you can fish for breaching on 5’s? Or with plenty of 2+ save 2W models are power axes the weapon du jour.

 

Honestly I’m tempted to switch them all to power fists because of Merciless fighters and WS5 causing them to be hit on 5’s against the common marine WS4 units.

[panascope]

I like the axes as an all rounder type weapon, in the context of popping Rage to get A5 on the charge. I took a couple Dual Lightning Claw guys because getting A6/7 on the charge seemed good enough to bank on. The Power Fist remains the gold standard though, especially on Justaerin where you’re likely to weather your opponents’ attacks on the road to the initiative 1 step.

[No Foes Remain]

So I'll be facing off against my friends soon-to-be Custodes army later this year (when their rules come out) at a 1,500pts (just so that will be a good point for him to build a force after their rules come out). And I'm wondering move to equip my tacticals.

I have the points to either run two 15-strong squads with chainswords/chain bayonets and vexilla or three 10-strong squads with chainswords/chain bayonets and vexilla. I'm wondering if I should either try to throw out loads of attacks with the chainswords or try to do damage with the +1 strength with the chain bayonets.

Can anyone who has faced off against Custodes in 1.0 offer any advice in how to not get slaughtered and hold my own (if I can).

[Noserenda]

Tacticals are pretty much always mulch when Custodes get ahold of them, i would advise 3 smaller squads to make them slightly harder to kill at once, Vexillas might help keep them in the fight and a power fist on the sergeant to try for some kills, the rest is just gravy if you have the points. 

Big guns and Terminators are your best bet for killing Custodes :) 

[No Foes Remain]

I have a twin las Contemptor and a 7-strong termie squad as well as a plasma support squad and a Seeker team with (hopefully) the new Sicaran bringing up the rear.

My main worry is that I've just managed to get him invested into the Heresy and this will be both of our first HH game (I've not played since 5th so be my first game for a while too) so I don't want to table him and make him have a rough time but at the same time I don't want to get slaughtered myself.

[Dark Legionnare]

On 6/28/2022 at 3:48 PM, No Foes Remain said:

I have a twin las Contemptor and a 7-strong termie squad as well as a plasma support squad and a Seeker team with (hopefully) the new Sicaran bringing up the rear.

My main worry is that I've just managed to get him invested into the Heresy and this will be both of our first HH game (I've not played since 5th so be my first game for a while too) so I don't want to table him and make him have a rough time but at the same time I don't want to get slaughtered myself.

That's a respectable amount of firepower for dealing with Custodes. But it really depends with what you're dealing with. If he's running nothing but lads on foot, and a couple bikes, that's a good chunk of valid firepower to deal with that IF you're using 1.0 rules.

We don't know what 2.0 stodes are/will be, but the change to plasma only being AP2 on a 4+ is a big change when it comes to dealing with the golden boys. Noserenda put it correctly when he said that Tacticals are pretty much fodder for stodes.  In 1.0 rules for example, they're AP2 on the charge & AP3 all other times with spears. So they can even threaten terminators quite dangerously with their higher initiative and decent attack numbers on the charge, but no matter charge or charged, they "mulch" power armor lads with the higher I and all AP3 minimum.

If you're going to play with 2.0 rules for your marines, and 1.0 for his golden boys it might be a bit in his favor given the plasma discrepancy. Then again, 2W terminators now means they're MUCH better at weathering those spear hits on the charge.

It's a toss up, but I'd say you should both play to have fun, keeping in mind that they're not adapted or balanced for the new ruleset yet.

[No Foes Remain]

Thanks Legionnare, I know hes going to have two foot squads and he's looking at one of the dreads (trying to poke him towards the spear one for Rule of Cool and that it's cheaper both money and points vs the Telomon) maybe one of the grav tanks and either some bikers or terminators.

 

Also good to note, charge the custodes and don't be charged.

[caladancid]

I've been considering a Pride of the Legion SoH 1k list with three units of veterans w/banestrikes. A take all comers list, so no particular opponent in mind.

Any thoughts on balancing that out? I am leaning towards dreads instead of tanks. Will probably have all three squads in Rhinos.

[Noserenda]

10 hours ago, caladancid said:

I've been considering a Pride of the Legion SoH 1k list with three units of veterans w/banestrikes. A take all comers list, so no particular opponent in mind.

Any thoughts on balancing that out? I am leaning towards dreads instead of tanks. Will probably have all three squads in Rhinos.

My planned army is broadly similar, but im running Armour so Predators for troops and Vets from elites. I was planning on running them in Land raiders but might switch to rhinos to fit some Justaerin in

[Dark Legionnare]

11 hours ago, caladancid said:

I've been considering a Pride of the Legion SoH 1k list with three units of veterans w/banestrikes. A take all comers list, so no particular opponent in mind.

Any thoughts on balancing that out? I am leaning towards dreads instead of tanks. Will probably have all three squads in Rhinos.

In a 1k game the amount of ID/brutal you're likely facing will mean that 60 wounds of three 10x vet squads will be contentious to deal with, doubly so if they've got apothecaries in 1-3 of them.

I played a 1500pt game with four squads: three in rhinos, one in a storm eagle, all w/various special weapons, sarge w/fist, apoths where points allowed. They chew through folks just by dirth of attacks. Banestrike's biggest deal, to my impression so far, is that it wounds on 3's, and is decent at glancing/wounding light armor (rhinos, speeders, etc...) to death.

Vets' biggest deal though, is that they're relentless and WS5. They always want to be charging anything that's not a spooky melee unit. Basically any "not melee adept" target fighting them back is hitting and wounding on 5's thanks to the legion trait.

Even better, with the legion trait, you don't give as much a damn about enemy thunder hammers, chainfists, or power fists in melee. Being S7, they don't instant-death you, and you can take FNP rolls against them. Those 2W bodies are more often than not dying to 1000 cuts rather than outright.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[caladancid]

18 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

My planned army is broadly similar, but im running Armour so Predators for troops and Vets from elites. I was planning on running them in Land raiders but might switch to rhinos to fit some Justaerin in

How many points would that list be? Seems expensive, though I like it.

[caladancid]

4 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

In a 1k game the amount of ID/brutal you're likely facing will mean that 60 wounds of three 10x vet squads will be contentious to deal with, doubly so if they've got apothecaries in 1-3 of them.

I played a 1500pt game with four squads: three in rhinos, on in a storm eagle, all w/various special weapons, sarge w/fist, apoths where points allowed. They chew through folks just by dirth of attacks. Banestrike's biggest deal, to my impression so far, is that it wounds on 3's, and is decent at glancing/wounding light armor (rhinos, speeders, etc...) to death.

Vets' biggest deal though, is that they're relentless and WS5. They always want to be charging anything that's not a spooky melee unit. Basically any "not melee adept" target fighting them back is hitting and wounding on 5's thanks to the legion trait.

Even better, with the legion trait, you don't give as much a damn about enemy thunder hammers, chainfists, or power fists in melee. Being S7, they don't instant-death you, and you can take FNP rolls against them. Those 2W bodies are more often than not dying to 1000 cuts rather than outright.

Sorry I think I am misunderstanding. I agree with your last point that the Legion ability makes the Vets a better risk- but I read your first point to say the opposite?

I am hesitant to take the trap of totally kitting them out, as that gets expensive so fast, which is partially why I landed on Banestrikes. Cheap.

[Noserenda]

54 minutes ago, caladancid said:

How many points would that list be? Seems expensive, though I like it.

Thats aiming at 2000pts sorry, though now that i noticed the 1k points value (idiot lol) i had a rough plan for 1k ZM of two tooled up veteran units with apothecaries, a cheap HQ and hopefully the Justaerin running Pride of the Legion.

 

 

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, caladancid said:

Sorry I think I am misunderstanding. I agree with your last point that the Legion ability makes the Vets a better risk- but I read your first point to say the opposite?

I am hesitant to take the trap of totally kitting them out, as that gets expensive so fast, which is partially why I landed on Banestrikes. Cheap.

Yeah, don't go full ham on tooling them out. Banestrikes in small games are powerful. Each 10 man with all banestrikes, fist + artificier armor on the sarge at least is 255. (So 775 baseline). Get an apoth or two, then you've got around 150 to play with. That'll get you a delegatus to do the R.o.W

I would use remaining points to throw a melta-gun here or there. (Replacing a banestrike for 13 points added to that 255 total) That nets you a melta per squad for dealing with a dread.  From there, whatever you want. remaining points after that. Some chainswords, a cheap rhino or two to cart them around, etc...

(I actually ran my four squads in that 1500 game w/2 missile launchers in two of yhey squads, the others two melta guns in each. Dreads don't fear launchers much anymore, so be wary about that being your "anti-dread" option. But 48" firepower is still good. Also good at teaching out to touch any enemy infantry-portable heavy/special weapons.)

What I meant in my first chunk is that the ability for people to Instant-death your vets is much more uncommon at 1k points. Not a lot of S8+ firepower running around in that point range. A stray melta/lascannon/missile launcher here or there on a dread or such. Means you get a lot of mileage out of their 2W bodies, which the apothecaries further amplify.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[caladancid]

3 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Thats aiming at 2000pts sorry, though now that i noticed the 1k points value (idiot lol) i had a rough plan for 1k ZM of two tooled up veteran units with apothecaries, a cheap HQ and hopefully the Justaerin running Pride of the Legion.

 

 

Haha no big deal, though it did cause me to be like...wait a minute I must be doing something wrong haha.

2 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Yeah, don't go full ham on tooling them out. Banestrikes in small games are powerful. Each 10 man with all banestrikes, fist + artificier armor on the sarge at least is 255. (So 775 baseline). Get an apoth or two, then you've got around 150 to play with. That'll get you a delegatus to do the R.o.W

I would use remaining points to throw a melta-gun here or there. (Replacing a banestrike for 13 points added to that 255 total) That nets you a melta per squad for dealing with a dread.  From there, whatever you want. remaining points after that. Some chainswords, a cheap rhino or two to cart them around, etc...

(I actually ran my four squads in that 1500 game w/2 missile launchers in two of yhey squads, the others two melta guns in each. Dreads don't fear launchers much anymore, so be wary about that being your "anti-dread" option. But 48" firepower is still good. Also good at teaching out to touch any enemy infantry-portable heavy/special weapons.)

What I meant in my first chunk is that the ability for people to Instant-death your vets is much more uncommon at 1k points. Not a lot of S8+ firepower running around in that point range. A stray melta/lascannon/missile launcher here or there on a dread or such. Means you get a lot of mileage out of their 2W bodies, which the apothecaries further amplify.

Ok we are on the same page then. And I have been thinking that a more interesting PotL list is 1250 or 1500. 1k is so constricted.