HH 2.0 The Mournival: XVIth Legion Tactica

[Mardi]

So, I played a few more games after my last post and still haven’t quite figured out how to best use the SoH. Black reaving is somewhat nice, but since reavers are probably the weakest elite infantry for the points cost and Justaerin among the weakest truly elite termies, they feel like a trap. Maybe I should give them more shooting upgrades, since at least that is somewhat cheap. Chieftains also feel weird, since they are more expensive and restricted command squad with only a minor bonus to hit, and no transport options.

 

I had more success with Pride of the Legion with drop pod vets with power weapons, shotguns, combi-meltas and nemesis bolters, and a cataphractii command squad led by Abaddon since they offer far more bang for the buck. A cataphractii chosen with a thunder hammer costs as much as a Justaerin with a power weapon for instance. You lose one attack and the minor combi weapon, but that’s a trade that is almost always worth taking. Combi-Disintegrators were also quite good and definitely worth the points, and work well with the legion reaction unlike Justaerin or Reavers who get very little out of it. Telepathy librarian was almost a must as otherwise I couldn’t deal with my opponent’s death stars’ Hold the Line reaction and interceptor reactions very well. Maybe an Infernus Abomination would also work, has anyone tried it yet? I might also try to fit Ashurhaddon to the list just because of the cool model and he would give counter-attack to vets.

 

In summary, the legion special units just feel worse than their generic counterparts.

[Starlight_Wolf]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:18 AM, Mardi said:

I Combi-Disintegrators were also quite good and definitely worth the points, and work well with the legion reaction unlike Justaerin or Reavers who get very little out of it. 

 

In all honesty I'm baffled as to why we received a shooting advanced reaction when the vast majority of special units the legion brings is assault oriented? Presumably to a) reflect the nature of gang mentality ambushes (lure an enemy to attack, leaving them open to another group waiting to take another target out), or b) represent the tactical flexibility of the legion (since that seems to be one of the main features of the legion outside of very aggressive assault tactics, though BA and WE have that side of things pretty well covered).

 

It leaves us a little spread thin when the Legion trait and warlord traits seem to push towards assault type builds only to have an Legion specific reaction that goes completely the other way?

 

Maybe something like +1 to hit/wound when targeting the same unit as another unit would be better, though crossing into the same territory as Black Reaving, might be a more appropriate way to highlight the Cthonian gang mentality.

 

More generally I've seen comments that SoH being one of (if not the first legion) to receive rules for 2.0 that they suffered from having some more 'generic' legion rules and traits, which could be why our shiny stuff feels less shiny than other legions.

 

Not going to lie so far I've struggled to make much headway against other legions (though in fairness my play group has been Stone Gaunlet IF, Day of Revelation BA and WE, though the WE player is changing to DA, so we'll see if that leads to any better success)

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I added,finally, an squadron of Sky-hunters in my army. My idea is to use them as fast/deep striking tank hunters/ multiple wounds miniatures: 4 to 6 members (depending of how many points I play) with multi meltas. Nothing extra.

I think is a good unit but I want to know your ideas/opinions and other possible configurations.

[Starlight_Wolf]

On 9/7/2023 at 2:12 PM, AGRAMAR said:

I added,finally, an squadron of Sky-hunters in my army. My idea is to use them as fast/deep striking tank hunters/ multiple wounds miniatures: 4 to 6 members (depending of how many points I play) with multi meltas. Nothing extra.

I think is a good unit but I want to know your ideas/opinions and other possible configurations.

 

Not sure about base size, but would it be worth running them as two squads of 3 when running 6? Causes your opponent to have 2 targets to shoot at to stop their tanks getting smashed as opposed to one :)

[Razorblade]

Is nobody running Justaerin with Hammers? 

I hear a lot of people saying they're worse than other Legion Elite Melee units, but between their legion trait (best in the game for terminator on terminator combat) and the 3rd attack (suzerains are the only other unit to get that) they should easily beat every other legions elite head on. 

They may be somewhat overpriced, sure but unless they're not equipped for the job they are the best legion melee unit in the game in terms of effectiveness.

[General Zodd]

9 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Is nobody running Justaerin with Hammers? 

I hear a lot of people saying they're worse than other Legion Elite Melee units, but between their legion trait (best in the game for terminator on terminator combat) and the 3rd attack (suzerains are the only other unit to get that) they should easily beat every other legions elite head on. 

They may be somewhat overpriced, sure but unless they're not equipped for the job they are the best legion melee unit in the game in terms of effectiveness.

I usually have at least one or two T’Hammers in my Justaerin, sometimes three if points allow, I usually have a couple with dual Lightning claws (5 attacks each, 6 on the charge!) and the rest have Carsoran Power Axes. I find they’re a really strong unit. The only elite terminators I’ve personally faced that caused me issues are the Raven Guard Deliverers (Loyalist version). Their Battle Hardened is effectively the same thing as our legion trait, but it doesn’t turn off after the first round. So round one of combat is pretty even, round two you start lifting Justaerin worryingly quickly… I’m sure there are other legion specific termies that also give them a run for their money, but I still rate our boys generally.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

On 9/14/2023 at 4:02 PM, Starlight_Wolf said:

 

Not sure about base size, but would it be worth running them as two squads of 3 when running 6? Causes your opponent to have 2 targets to shoot at to stop their tanks getting smashed as opposed to one :)

Round, 60 mm diameter

[Starlight_Wolf]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:51 PM, AGRAMAR said:

Round, 60 mm diameter

 

Thanks for that :) In that case I'd definitely recommend 2 smaller squads just to give an extra target, and if tank hunting, make them more likely to show a weaker facing to at least one of the squads.

 

Slightly different reference, but it's what I did with my Thunder wolves in 40k space wolves. Granted vastly different roles within the force, but the logic remains the same: why present one big target when you can put several smaller ones giving better odds of one getting through :)

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

How essential is a Heavy Support Squad with Lascannons nowadays? 
I see a lot of lists running 5-10 guys with LCs. I'm torn on the subject as I would fancy some tanks as support (2 las-Predators or 2 Vindicators) for my 30 footslogging Tacs, maybe a 5 melta support in a Rhino and a squadron of jetbikes to crack some armour.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Lascannons now are more useful than in previous incarnations of the rules. There're are not only lot of tanks,also lot of units with W2 and/or armour save 2+. Like Veterans for example. And Heavy Support squads are also Heavy (They repeat salving throws Vs Area and Blast template weapons). 

The price, finally, is quite cheap and you can make them lot of durable and lethal adding an apothecary, augury scanner,an Armistos or MoS or Telepath Librarian Consul...

 

Predators are awesome but a bit fragile (only 3 HP) and much more limited in options and extras to make them durable. A HSS Lascannon unit take more advantage from covers. The only real advantages of predators are movement and manoeuvre over HSS.

Edited November 5, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

As a side note: what do you think on Librarians or Esoterists? I have a CSM Sorcerer which I like, and I would like to add it to my fledgling force. Any concerns, or "do not"s? :) 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

On 11/29/2023 at 8:25 PM, TheDreadfulSagittary said:

As a side note: what do you think on Librarians or Esoterists? I have a CSM Sorcerer which I like, and I would like to add it to my fledgling force. Any concerns, or "do not"s? :) 

I prefer Librarians over Esoterists. Librarian Consul isn't very expensive and very useful specially with Telepathy, Biomancy or Divinitation. Except if you are going to play against TS, don't  buy a Psiquic Hood

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I'm making a conversion to represent  Captain Tybalt Marr, because I discovered that is quite easy using one of members of MK IV squad command. But what are your opinions about this fella as playable character? He was left untouched in the last FAQs & Errata and I think is quite  interesting as Praetor like HQ option, specially as duelist and character hunter.

 

Edited January 2 by AGRAMAR
Add better quality pictures

[Razorblade]

10 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

I'm making a conversion to represent  Captain Tybalt Marr, because I discovered that is quite easy using one of members of MK IV squad command. But what are your opinions about this fella as playable character?

He's wildly overcosted, doesn't do anything unique and has less synergy with the Legion Trait than a regular Praetor with a Hammer.

Since his Sword is the only unique thing about him its very easy to calculate the price, he essentially gives up 1 point of WS, 1 attack and a whopping 55 points for it. Now it's a decent sword but no way that's worth it. Dark Angels can get essentially the same weapon on a proper praetor for 30 points less, with +1 to hit. 

He will also be strictly worse at killing most characters with it than a praetor with a Thunder hammer would be. Merciless Fighters allows characters to get into the unwieldy mirror matches that normally result in mutually assured destruction and come out alive so there is no reason whatsoever to overpay for a fancy sword to avoid them.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Interesting, very  interesting. So, just for narrative-historical scenarios and similar?

[Razorblade]

4 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

Interesting, very  interesting. So, just for narrative-historical scenarios and similar?

I'd say so. You could run the Model as a champion who is far better priced for the swordfighter role, but truth be told I think SoH lose too much from not using Hammers/Fists to use other weapons outside of narrative scenarios.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

The other day I was thinking something similar, combining carsoran weapon plus a power fist in a Praetor. Extra attack, two possible fight mods, 40 pts (25 + 15) all...hum

[depthcharge12]

Just as a slight correction for those that might have not noticed, Black Reaving lets units get rage if that enemy unit is the target of at least one other charge, it does not have to be already engaged. I think this is huge and a lot of people down play/minmax their fast attack slots which ends up hurting them. Dont be afraid to use speeders to initiate that charge stack - they tend to be quite durable and nimble.

 

My current list at 3k is:

 

MoS

Abbaddon

 

2 Contemptors w/lascannons+fist

5 Justaerin retinue w/banner/hammers/TLC

5 Justaerin w/Carsoran Tabars

8 vets in a pod with a mix of power swords, Carsoran weapons, and all with banestrike in a pod

 

2x10 inductii despoilers with chainaxes

2x10 tacticals in rhinos

 

Javelin w/ML and MM

Javelin w/ML and MM

3 Jetbikes w/volkite

 

10 lascannon HSS 

Sicaran Arcus

 

 

The two squads of Justaerin + vets drop with Abby in the backfield. MoS gives reserve rerolls and +1 BS to HSS. Despoilers run up the field with Contemptors to gain their inductii bonus and support the elites. Tacticals grab backfield objectives. Javelins and bikes add ranged support, and can charge in a pinch to proc rage.

 

My .02 on our units…leave reavers at home and take vets if you want something instead. They are far too overcosted. Justaerin are still good and do their thing, but really only shine in Black Reaving from all the bonuses. Don’t leave home without Abby. Chieftains seem alright but can get expensive quick and need a raider baked into their overall cost. Inductii I’m still on the fence as I have not had any games with them yet.

 

 

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

OK, back again with some silly-noob questions 

 

It seems that the main body of my Sons of Horus army is coming together nicely with lots of boots on the ground, some Assault Marines and Jetbikes for fast elements, and some transports (2 Rhinos and a Spartan). I also added a melee Leviathan and plan to add a Contemptor too, but the thing I'm missing is tracked heavy support. What would you recommend to look at as a fluffy, yet effective addition to the list?

 

I also have an Iron Hands army, which consists almost entirely of armoured units, with everything in Rhinos or Land Raiders, a Spartan, Predators and 3 Dreads to choose from. I wanted a different approach on the Sons of Horus, but still, I would like to have some armour to support my Tacticals, Terminators and other stuff...

 

Another question: would you consider adding an allied detachment of Solar Auxilia for your army? I looked at the new SA box and thought, that it would be a nice addition to my collection without investing too much money on another army, yet, it seems legal to add for any of my forces, if I would like to run them on the table.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

5 hours ago, TheDreadfulSagittary said:

OK, back again with some silly-noob questions 

 

It seems that the main body of my Sons of Horus army is coming together nicely with lots of boots on the ground, some Assault Marines and Jetbikes for fast elements, and some transports (2 Rhinos and a Spartan). I also added a melee Leviathan and plan to add a Contemptor too, but the thing I'm missing is tracked heavy support. What would you recommend to look at as a fluffy, yet effective addition to the list?

 I have something in mind too. I want to add something more in vehicles to my army, something fast but with fire power and resistance and durability.  Maybe a Sicaran or a Malcador. Kratos tank is also amazing but I believe SoH armies need speed with firepower

Edited January 27 by Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

5 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

 I have something in mind too. I want to add something more in vehicles to my army, something fast but with fire power and resistance and durability.  Maybe a Sicaran or a Malcador. Kratos tank is also amazing but I believe SoH armies need speed with firepower

 

Yeah, maybe a Sicaran BT or a Venator? Are they any good for us?

Or maybe some artillery support in form of the Scorpius?

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I have Scorpius and the models are amazing. I love it.  In fact, you can assemble like Rhino or Scorpius just exchanging the tops of them,  so you can have extra Rhinos, a 2x1 let's say. And in rules are really good as astartes artillery tank.

 

Sicaran is an excellent tank, fast, powerful and quite durable. The only problem is the interesting models aren't in plastic actually. A shame.

 

Both options are great,I think. Just choose what is better for your current choice of troops.Something more static, great as anti personal and not expensive? Scorpius. More mobile, fast, durable and polivalent? Sicaran. 

[No Foes Remain]

I quite like the Sicaran MBT, it's a nice fast tank that can perform a few different roles, the Venator is also nice if you are lacking some AT through the rest of your list.

 

 

I'm also looking at adding some Solar Auxilia in the form of Cthonian Headhunters to my SoH list, probably just some rifles and a Leman Russ or two with Vanquisher cannons for some backfield AT support so that the rest of my SoH can get stuck in melee without worrying about objectives as the Headhunters will hold them.

[WrathOfTheLion]

A normal sicaran is what I'm building right now for the SoH, I'll probably end up using it in my first game with them sometime next month.

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

On 1/27/2024 at 10:32 PM, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

I have Scorpius and the models are amazing. I love it.  In fact, you can assemble like Rhino or Scorpius just exchanging the tops of them,  so you can have extra Rhinos, a 2x1 let's say. And in rules are really good as astartes artillery tank.

 

Sicaran is an excellent tank, fast, powerful and quite durable. The only problem is the interesting models aren't in plastic actually. A shame.

 

Both options are great,I think. Just choose what is better for your current choice of troops.Something more static, great as anti personal and not expensive? Scorpius. More mobile, fast, durable and polivalent? Sicaran. 

 

Thanks for the tip with the Scorpius, I might give it a try. If not with the Sons, then with my Iron Hands. I think that the main missing point in my army is something that is effective against tanks and/or heavy infantry.

 

As for the Sicarans - I try to stay away from the bigger resin kits, mainly because of their price tag. I love the chassis, they look amazing and I didn't think that any of them would be a bad decision.

 

Something also on my mind - what about a Vindicator?

 

11 hours ago, No Foes Remain said:

I quite like the Sicaran MBT, it's a nice fast tank that can perform a few different roles, the Venator is also nice if you are lacking some AT through the rest of your list.

 

 

I'm also looking at adding some Solar Auxilia in the form of Cthonian Headhunters to my SoH list, probably just some rifles and a Leman Russ or two with Vanquisher cannons for some backfield AT support so that the rest of my SoH can get stuck in melee without worrying about objectives as the Headhunters will hold them.

 

That's what I was thinking about. Only a bare minimum, just for fun, but still effective. The battle box seems to be a great starting point. Maybe a Velantis Storm Section and an additional tank to them, but nothing more (maybe even less - I didn't like the heavy Sentinel :S )

 

6 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

A normal sicaran is what I'm building right now for the SoH, I'll probably end up using it in my first game with them sometime next month.

 

Sounds nice! I hope that you might share the performance of your Sicaran (and of course the rest of the army) with us later :)