HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Mor Deythan combi-volkie goes like this.

You get one turn to point and click a unit to death and then you have an overpriced squad. Sure, you can straight up kill 1 toughness unit, but after that, the unit is just about forgettable. If you are playing against an Armored Spear Head or FotA you've either killed a Contemptor/Leviathan and then its not doing anything, or you've done nothing to the unit.

 

Sure the unit itself is great...for 1 round of shooting, after that it's kind of pants.

 

To reinforce about anti-armor and deepstrike. Deepstrike is way too powerful this edition, I've also moved away from 2k+ points sitting in reserves to just obliterate opponents from turn 2-3.

 

The meltalance Levi in pod is by far the strongest option, though I also take proteus Land speeders. If you can get them...multi-melta sky hunters are another option, and Castraferrum Dual Lascannon load outs for 3 are the same price as a heavy support squad with better utility.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[tikhunt]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Mor Deythan combi-volkie goes like this.

You get one turn to point and click a unit to death and then you have an overpriced squad. Sure, you can straight up kill 1 toughness unit, but after that, the unit is just about forgettable. If you are playing against an Armored Spear Head or FotA you've either killed a Contemptor/Leviathan and then its not doing anything, or you've done nothing to the unit.

 

Sure the unit itself is great...for 1 round of shooting, after that it's kind of pants.

 

To reinforce about anti-armor and deepstrike. Deepstrike is way too powerful this edition, I've also moved away from 2k+ points sitting in reserves to just obliterate opponents from turn 2-3.

 

The meltalance Levi in pod is by far the strongest option, though I also take proteus Land speeders. If you can get them...multi-melta sky hunters are another option, and Castraferrum Dual Lascannon load outs for 3 are the same price as a heavy support squad with better utility.

What is the better way to equip Mor Dethyn then? Stalker Bolters seem redundant but I really want to run a unit of Mor Dethyn.

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Mor Deythan combi-volkie goes like this.

You get one turn to point and click a unit to death and then you have an overpriced squad. Sure, you can straight up kill 1 toughness unit, but after that, the unit is just about forgettable. If you are playing against an Armored Spear Head or FotA you've either killed a Contemptor/Leviathan and then its not doing anything, or you've done nothing to the unit.

 

Sure the unit itself is great...for 1 round of shooting, after that it's kind of pants.

 

To reinforce about anti-armor and deepstrike. Deepstrike is way too powerful this edition, I've also moved away from 2k+ points sitting in reserves to just obliterate opponents from turn 2-3.

 

The meltalance Levi in pod is by far the strongest option, though I also take proteus Land speeders. If you can get them...multi-melta sky hunters are another option, and Castraferrum Dual Lascannon load outs for 3 are the same price as a heavy support squad with better utility.

Well, ofcourse against FotA you either bring combiplasma/melta, or just put 3 Plasmaguns into the squad to help them remain a threat.

Against any other army, after/before their Fatal Strike, they are still a unit of WS4 Veterans who shoot up to 4 shots a piece with BS5 each shooting attack.

That's on average 8 Bolter wounds and 12 Volkite wounds against infantry without PE. 

So anything but forgetable in my opinion.

And not to mention, with infiltrate and scout, they are there to get rid of the one thing, that you maybe cannot, or will not handle otherwise.

That's they job, after/before that, they are a tough little annoyance with skirmish, relentless and shroud bombs, that can harrass Tacticals, TSS, Seekers or even the infamous Warders with a good chance of not triggering reactions thanks to shroud bombs.

 

At first i wasn't really fond of them, because of their Pricetag. But after a few games with them, they definately have a place in my Lists. Not a no-brainer like Seekers, but still very, very good.

 

I just think, that they are a little wasted with Nemesis Bolters. ^^

 

 

 

 

[MichaelCarmine]

18 minutes ago, tikhunt said:

What is the better way to equip Mor Dethyn then? Stalker Bolters seem redundant but I really want to run a unit of Mor Dethyn.

The best damage output is and will be CombiVolkite.

To keep them efficient against lesser "woundpools" for longer, equip them with the more expensive CombiPlasma. That'l give you a turn of up to 20 Fatal Strike Bolters and a following shooting attack of up to 20 Bolters and 20 Plasma. So on average 2 dead Dreadnought.

You can also sprinkle up to 3 Special weapons in. 

 

Buy them a rhino, infiltrate/scout them, and unload their fury unto the enemy turn one.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Combi-volkite is the best option. Or the combi-plasma if you want "two rounds" of fatal strike, at an increased price tag. What I recommend you do is just glue bolters onto your MD and have them hold the volkite guns. 

 

Nemesis bolters are better on recon squads.

 

I'm not dismissing what MC is saying, I just don't find them as rewarding to use as he does. So experience and opinions vary.

 

I've also gravitated to more Legion generic units like Assault Destroyers for a more jump heavy list.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Considering the most complained units of the edition are toughness models,  being able to blast one right off the table is pretty useful. 

 

The dreaded custodes guardian squad loses about 7 models to the volkite more deythan, and then you can react back into the rhino if needed. The plasma version that's more or less able to burn down two contemptors is also a very good unit. Just for context, las HSS average 2 dead custodes and 3.6 wounds to a dread per volley; you need four slots worth them to match up. 

 

The only thing they really lose out against is mass heavy armour, but so do dark fury. Another fun little comparison shows the volkite MD average 2.7 hull points against av13 and 4.6 against av12; dark fury do a rounded up 2.5 and 4.9 respectively. They also only average 6 dead custodes on the charge at the cost of all the furies. Obviously, no one is saying dark fury are bad because they can whack a unit and then get shot or charged/struggle against heavier armour values. Or calling them overrated.

 

And yea, deepstrike can be brutally, miserably, one sided. But watch out; if your friends decide to tech against it, they can reverse that experience. Sniper recons can put a lot of pinning onto lesser units, and telepathy librarians send anything that's not fearless into the ground for two game turns. And the master of signals can also jam a lot of stuff up, and are usually paired with a HSS in the middle of the castle, behind solid terrain (where it's hard to infiltrate or deepstrike into to gank). People probably won't pivot into double telepathy librarians outside a tournament, but things can go....awry if their opponent puts their mind to it.

Edited May 2, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[NemoVonUtopia]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:21 AM, tikhunt said:

What is the better way to equip Mor Dethyn then? Stalker Bolters seem redundant but I really want to run a unit of Mor Dethyn.

While not the most efficient, I have a squad of 5 with nemesis bolters and they have done pretty well. Having relentless alows them to move and consistantly getting good shots. 

[Mandragola]

Mobile snipers are good, but not enough of an upgrade over recon squads to justify the added cost, elite slot and losing Line. That said, I haven't really used either of those yet. Arguably, RG recon squads aren't anything special compared to other Legions', as they all get infiltrate. But that occasional shrouding save and the option to take infravisors makes them pretty good.

 

I've played a fair number of games with my Ravens now, including a five game event and Warhammer Fest. They're fun and, in my opinion, seriously powerful.

 

Infiltrating Line units is a game-winning ability. Several of the missions reward you for putting Line units places like the enemy deployment zone or various parts of midfield. It also means there's far less need for transports, which means you can spend more points on fighty stuff, while also not giving away cheap kill points with rhinos.

 

That said, it is important not to throw your Line stuff away. A few times I've ended up deploying my tactical squads too aggressively, which has only resulted in them getting charged by a dreadnought and wiped out. You need those guys alive at the end of the game so keep them going.

 

Here's what I took to Warhammer Fest:

 

 

So there's 3x15 tacticals, 10 Dark Furies, 10 Seekers (with combi-disintegrator), a contemptor and boxnaught, Xiphon and melta/las predator. I've got a Chaplain with the Furies, Kaedes Nex with the seekers and a Delegatus for my Warlord, armed with a hammer and leading a full command squad. Oh and a Warhound. Turns out nobody else brought one of those, which surprised me as there'd been several at a previous WHWorld event not long ago.

 

I added the Command Squad for this event and they proved excellent throughout. I usually outflanked them, having them come on behind the enemy while my dark furies deep struck. The Hidden Hand warlord trait helped with this, as did the shrouding saves from decapitation strike. Between them, these two units could tear stuff up. The Command squad is surprisingly durable, with WS5 making them hard to hit, 2+ saves and shrouding. The Dark Furies aren't so tough but can still tank a lot with the choosers, and of course they rip through everything.

 

The ability to have a command squad (with Line) come on behind the enemy is a unique strength of Raven Guard and something I'd encourage others to do. These units aren't all that expensive - mine costs 390 with a Delegatus, 3 pairs of claws, 3 power axes. You get 2 awkward points left if you buy a full squad so I got my Delegatus a shotgun, which did actually once drop a unit from WS5 to 4.

 

The boxnaught is amazing. There's nothing particularly Raven-Guard-y about it, but lascannons are great and it's an efficient platform for them. On two occasions (in only four games) a Land Raider shot at it, with one of those getting blown up and the other immobilised - with 10 traitor Suzerains and a Praetor still inside.

 

I'd have to concede that the Xiphon wasn't all that brilliant. At its price it's hard to really complain, and it does synergise well with the Hidden Hand, but it seems to be unlucky about rolling that rerollable 3+. I'd prefer to have my guns on the board at the start of the game so I'm thinking about ditching it, perhaps in exchange for Javelins. I'm not sure if I'd use the official models or try to convert some, perhaps from Land Speeder Storms.

 

The Predator is kind of ok. I wanted a fast source of Melta and it's a reasonably efficient one - at least given that all my FA slots were taken. But I never rolled high when it penetrated vehicles. 

 

The Warhound itself is probably a bit too good really. That's a shame as I spent a lot of time on it. I don't think it's bad enough to make you "that guy" for using one, but the thing is rough. It tends to really punish weaker players who haven't brought tools to deal with it but, to be brutally honest, I'd always beat those people regardless so it doesn't change the outcome much. Good players will bring the right tools and then it can be hunted down.

 

I painted it a plasma blastgun for this event so I could try getting an extra shot in exchange for D3 hull points. A Warhound takes a risk by doing this as it "only" has 12 HP, so D3 can be a quarter of them. Nevertheless I found it worthwhile for those moments when you can target a Heavy weapon squad. Do try and remove the Sergeant first if he has artificer armour though, or he'll tank all the AP3 wounds... but not the AP2 ones, which make up 60% of your successful wounds.

[Pearson73]

That's a great looking force @Mandragola and interesting to hear about your experiences with the army.

[xxxjtmxxx]

how do you give the command squad outflank?

[MichaelCarmine]

8 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

how do you give the command squad outflank?

Raven Guard infantry that is not Heavy or equipped with a JumpPack gains the Infiltrate special rule.

Infiltrate convers Outflank to the unit if it is kept in reserve

[Mandragola]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Raven Guard infantry that is not Heavy or equipped with a JumpPack gains the Infiltrate special rule.

Infiltrate convers Outflank to the unit if it is kept in reserve

Indeed. It's a trick that few Legions can do, and a very powerful one. You get to bring a scary unit of Line infantry melee specialists on behind the enemy, probably on turn 2. It's perfect for running with a Hidden Hand Warlord, as it lets you reroll all your reserves till he arrives.

 

Meanwhile the rest of your army should be trying to kill things with intercept and generally stay alive. It happens that Warhounds are pretty good at this.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The thing with outflank is that it needs a lotttttt of help to make it work.

 

It shares the same vulnerabilities to interceptor as deepstrike, but with more weaknesses:

• Your entry location is extremely telegraphed
• Your entry location is bottle necked by the unit sizes
• The first units can be disrupted 
• The opponent can body block the entry point

If you place the marker on the opponents edge, close to units that can be charged, then they can just bubble wrap the point with a decent sized unit and stop the outflank. I actually talked about this trick earlier on in this thread, as infiltrate allows you to react to the outflank marker very easily. 

 

So yea, lots of weaknesses. The most success I've had with it is ironically using it as bait for deepstrike. You roll the outflank first to hopefully absorb interceptor, and then the deepstrike comes unscathed. But if they're trying to save it for the deepstrike, the outflank gets to do some work. Seems to be what mandragola did as well here.

[Mandragola]

Interesting point on the interceptor. I've been tending to bring in all my reserves before my opponent resolves it, but you're right that I should only do either the outflank or the interception.

 

I've never had anyone try to block my outflank point. Actually very few armies could do that as you'd need a large unit that infiltrates, which not many people have. People don't seem to be prepared to send units back to stand in a line against the back edge and, if they did, my Dark Furies would drop in and murder them - if I hadn't just shot them with my Warhound. I think it's an argument for using a VMB on the hound, as in this scenario it can happily mow down a unit spread out in a line, which the laser and plasma aren't so good at doing.

 

The other issues you mention are less problematic. Telegraphed arrival isn't that bad when you're aimed at an objective, as your opponent could reasonably predict you were going there anyway. I find a unit of 10 with 7" moves doesn't get bottlenecked that much. In the worst case if I can't fit on at all I just have to wait a turn.

 

I've just submitted a list including some SoS in an allied Acquisitor. That can outflank as well, and can (I think) fly over anyone who tries to body block it, before unleashing some women with swords to cut stuff up. They'll cause pinning checks at -1LD due to Anathema, which seems a bit harsh.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I've never had anyone try to block my outflank point.

 

A lot of people don't even think about it lol, as you note later on.

 

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Actually very few armies could do that as you'd need a large unit that infiltrates, which not many people have

 

Not when you place the marker on their back board edge. When it's a neutral edge you definitely need infiltrate, scout, jump packs or bikes.

 

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

if they did, my Dark Furies would drop in and murder them - if I hadn't just shot them with my Warhound.

 

Sure, but this kinda underlines the issues with outflank. It can be blocked by a unit if you go for the most aggressive option (unlike deepstrike), and if they do, you need to spend another few hundred points to bail that outflank unit out. 

 

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

The other issues you mention are less problematic. Telegraphed arrival isn't that bad when you're aimed at an objective, as your opponent could reasonably predict you were going there anyway. I find a unit of 10 with 7" moves doesn't get bottlenecked that much. In the worst case if I can't fit on at all I just have to wait a turn.

 

Well the thing with telegraphed stuff is that with deepstrike, if they move to reinforce or share up a vulnerable area, you can just go anywhere else in the board. Outflank lets you shift 6", but unless there's a chunk of los blocking terrain to hide behind it ain't changing much.

 

One unit of 10 doesn't get bottlenecked, no arguments there. But when you take multiple units in a flanking assault it happens, and it can happen pretty fast. This is in contrast to deepstrike , where a large initial unit just gives you even more coverage and threat radius for subsequent units. 

 

I think I did a bad job of making my comments apply to outflank in general, and not about your list specifically. Outflank is just a worse delivery option on the whole, almost objectively.

[MichaelCarmine]

23 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I've never had anyone try to block my outflank point. Actually very few armies could do that as you'd need a large unit that infiltrates, which not many people have. 

That's actually really easy to manage - a mere 5 man squad of recons that infiltrates is able to cancel your outflank.

The possible entrypoint of an Outflanking Unit is, at max, 14", if the Marker is about 2" in diameter (Diameter of Marker +6" to left and right). A Unit of 5 Recons with Skirmish(3" Unit coherency) can spread out to about 18" (5x32mm + 4×3" Unit coherency).

 

They also have Shroudbombs, which gives the opponent an aditional 6" range penalty for every weapon that fires at them.

And i don't know about you, but with RG, i'm always voting for Nightfighting, which makes it even harder to kill them of in one turn for everything without Infravisor.

[Mandragola]

I certainly agree that outflank is worse than deep strike. We get it for free though. I’m finding that a command squad with a character is a very good use of it, killing enemy backfield units and getting a tough Line unit in their DZ. There’s good synergy with the hidden hand warlord trait, which lets you reroll all the other reserves. Bringing on a Xiphon, 10 dark furies with a chaplain and the command squad at once tends to overwhelm the enemy’s ability to intercept. 

[Varyn]

8 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I certainly agree that outflank is worse than deep strike. We get it for free though. I’m finding that a command squad with a character is a very good use of it, killing enemy backfield units and getting a tough Line unit in their DZ. There’s good synergy with the hidden hand warlord trait, which lets you reroll all the other reserves. Bringing on a Xiphon, 10 dark furies with a chaplain and the command squad at once tends to overwhelm the enemy’s ability to intercept. 

 

This is very interesting, I've not considered an outflanking command squad; a scoring 2W unit with a 2+ save and WS5 is a solid option. I am shortly going to be trying out a list with two assault squads and a unit of Dark Furys, but having an outflanking assault squad is worth considering. My only concern at the moment is that I don't want to use any more of the plastic MKVI because of the repetition of poses, I want a my command squad to stand out more and have some character, I imagine the Tortuga Bay Miniatures models scale pretty well with plastic MKVI?

 

I imagine that the new command squad kit is most likely going to be MKVI, which might frustrate some other legion players, but it's ideal for me as my army is mostly new plastic MKVI, plus FW units!

 

 

[Claws and Effect]

I'm looking into adding some Iron Hands allies using the Company of Bitter Iron RoW to gain some hard to shift objective holders in the Medusan Immortals. And also because it will effectively give me a second HS slot if my primary detachment is Decapitation Strike. 

 

Anyone tried that yet, and what were the results? 

 

I'm trying to build a narrative army around some Istvaan V survivors that were mostly Raven Guard but also included Salamanders and Iron Hands. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Taking Aethon and the Sorrow Branded to ATC this weekend alongside my friends Ultramarines.

 

I'll try to grab pictures and updates as the event unfolds.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Finished up late yesterday evening. Traveling home today, but doing a lot of sight seeing/shopping etc today.

 

We went 3 - 0 for the narrative event. I'll write up everything soonish.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Nice work!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Headed to Dallas for the Texas Open. Once I land I'll try to do a write up for ATC. Sorry it's a couple weeks late!

[Gorgoff]

8 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Headed to Dallas for the Texas Open. Once I land I'll try to do a write up for ATC. Sorry it's a couple weeks late!

No problem. This must be fun for you too so no hurry 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

16 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

No problem. This must be fun for you too so no hurry 

What he said!