HH 2.0 The Ravenspire: XIXth Legion Tactica

[Mandragola]

Yeah decap strike does interesting things for 4+ stuff like seeker/plasma breaching and mor Deythan rending. Half the 1s you reroll become a 4+, meaning you get more than 50% success and almost no misses or failures to wound. You get more precision shots too. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Speaking of plasma, it may be the go to support squad option for me going forward. A 10 man squad is 255 with AA on the sergeant. A solid 300+ with a MoS and Apothecary/Rhino attached. But the trade offs seems worth it. Especially for Dread heavies and Custodes building in popularity.

 

I know meltacide squads may be options, but they are just so expensive. Even with infiltrating shenanigans anything more than 12" away are going to decimate them in the shooting phase. I feel like you may burn your advanced reaction early on them.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Custodes are building a ton of popularity amongst the 40k crowd wanting to try out their hand at 30k.

 

I must say, a full 10 man lascannon squad is looking better and better as the anti-custodes weapon options. That movement and absolute crushing melee presence is intimidating!

[MichaelCarmine]

On 1/1/2023 at 4:01 AM, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Custodes are building a ton of popularity amongst the 40k crowd wanting to try out their hand at 30k.

 

I must say, a full 10 man lascannon squad is looking better and better as the anti-custodes weapon options. That movement and absolute crushing melee presence is intimidating!

I'd recommend, investing a few more points, 330pts, to be exact.

That gives you 10 wounds with T6, 2+/5++ and 8 Lascannon shots at BS5. Namely two BoxDreads, which also spare the precious (one) HS slot. =]

Boxdreads rule as HW Platform in this edition. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I'd recommend, investing a few more points, 330pts, to be exact.

That gives you 10 wounds with T6, 2+/5++ and 8 Lascannon shots at BS5. Namely two BoxDreads

So take those along with a heavy support squad? That is a good point

 

The +1s custodes get is absolutely brutal. I don't know how long those dreads will survive though.

[MichaelCarmine]

23 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

So take those along with a heavy support squad? That is a good point

 

The +1s custodes get is absolutely brutal. I don't know how long those dreads will survive though.

Well its the same amount of wounds with higher toughness, better Armorsave, and a Invul. Plus they are stil mobile, which the HSS is not, if he wants to shoot effectively. They'll survive much longer then a single 10man 3+ armor unit, which can flee and be pinned down. =]

Throw in a Helical and you also have the, by far, scariest AA, point for point, in the game.

 

I also don't think, that RG are a good Legion to field HSS. Sinc3 they are Heavy, they cannot infiltrate, cannot be taken in the liberation force RoW and would fill the only HS slot in the Decap RoW.

IF you play another RoW, ok, but with Decap, i'd rather take a (droping) Levi in the HS Slot. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've been fielding Deredeos to good success in the Heavy Support Slot. 500 points for a Levi is pricey.

 

Will look into it.

[Varyn]

22 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

I'd recommend, investing a few more points, 330pts, to be exact.

That gives you 10 wounds with T6, 2+/5++ and 8 Lascannon shots at BS5. Namely two BoxDreads, which also spare the precious (one) HS slot. =]

Boxdreads rule as HW Platform in this edition. 

 

This is an interesting point and definitely something I'll consider. It's a shame that the kit looks a bit dated!

 

 

[Mandragola]

Box Dreads are cool but bear in mind they're also Heavy, so you can't use them in all RoWs either. Definitely an interesting option though, as mobility is a big deal. I've actually got a few metal box dreads, deep in the pile of shame, and I think some left-handed twin (or I guess Gravis now) lascannons for them. The Gravis Missile launcher is quite fun too. I've also got a quad-las contemptor painted up. Hmm.

 

The Xiphon is quite a fun alternative source of Lascannons. If you're running a Hidden Hand Warlord then you get to reroll all reserves while he's off-table. Roll for the Xiphon (and anything else) before your Warlord to get lots of stuff at once. The enemy might fire to intercept your plane, but then they won't be firing at your Dark Furies, Deliverers and so on.

 

Neither of these units can see in the dark though and a HWS can, since we can buy the Sergeant Night Vision. That also prevents Shrouding. The HSS is damn good.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Ive been thinking about it, and i feel like there are several good options in the Heavy Slot. Example being 4 predators with melta cannons. There's always allies also. Upfront there's Death Guard, Iron Warriors, or Emperor's Children that all have strong heavy options.

 

When I think of a 10 man lascannon squad with infravisor, I can keep them in cover much like snipers protected by upper levels, difficult terrain, and both a cover save and evade roll as needed.

[MichaelCarmine]

Yeah well, i don't see a deredeo when it comes to only having 1HS Slot.

IF you have only 1 Slot, then bring something that can dish out as well as taking it. And that screams Leviathan to me.

Deredeos are good, no doubt about that, i really like the plain and simple Anvilus Battery. But they got nerfed and can no longer intercept two targets, so their output against flyers, compared to a Las-Box, may have "more" shots, but when you hit flyers on 2s, then you don't need more than four shots.

A Deredeo has also less usefull ap2 output than one Las-Box and costs, at least 50pts more, if you give him plasma.

Also, for me, he's to easily trapped in CC by fast enemy Unkts for our only HS Unit (Decap). 

 

A Levi costs around 400pts, with a DP, not 500, i don't know, where you got that from. and the good thing against custodes? It kills Custodes on every wound in CC!

Yeah, they may get more attacks against your Levi, but they still only wound him on 6s with their Spears and Gauntlets/Meltabombs strike at initiative 1.

And with Melta Lance, Melta and Phosphex, he gets about 6-8 shots at ap1/2, at BS5 that.

Actually, that is the ONLY Unit, i'd ever want to get into CC with Custodes, to be honest. 

 

Furies? They can "easily" be forced to do a disorderd charge, but even with ini5, they'll get a 3-5 man squad, but they'll get whiped in the process.

Deliverers? I'd send that dudes against everything!

Except Custodes. Custodes just whipe the floor with them...

 

PS: for now, it's also much easier to explain multiple Boxnoughts, than Contemptors/Leviathans/Deredeos to your opponent without instantly being "that guy" xD xD xD For now!!!

 

Edit: 3 Levis in one HS Slot should be ok, when it goes against Custodes, i think. Yeah, thats 1200pts, but watch the 'Stodes player cry in vain, when they drop and whipe a Custodes Unit each. Or just play them without pods for 900 total, since the custodes player wants to come in CC anyway =]

Edited January 5, 2023 by MichaelCarmine

[MichaelCarmine]

On 1/3/2023 at 5:17 PM, Mandragola said:

Box Dreads are cool but bear in mind they're also Heavy, so you can't use them in all RoWs either. Definitely an interesting option though, as mobility is a big deal. I've actually got a few metal box dreads, deep in the pile of shame, and I think some left-handed twin (or I guess Gravis now) lascannons for them. The Gravis Missile launcher is quite fun too. I've also got a quad-las contemptor painted up. Hmm.

 

The Xiphon is quite a fun alternative source of Lascannons. If you're running a Hidden Hand Warlord then you get to reroll all reserves while he's off-table. Roll for the Xiphon (and anything else) before your Warlord to get lots of stuff at once. The enemy might fire to intercept your plane, but then they won't be firing at your Dark Furies, Deliverers and so on.

 

Neither of these units can see in the dark though and a HWS can, since we can buy the Sergeant Night Vision. That also prevents Shrouding. The HSS is damn good.

Yes, thats right, im aware of that,thanks though =]

It's a more (cost)effective High Str., sundering ap2 platform than anything, thats otherwise available for its points. 

I mean, it costs the same as a LasPred, doesn't require HS-slot, can't get shaken, can react, has an invul, more "Wounds" and shoots everything until it is destroyed.

 

I'm currently building my Iron Warriors and thought of including 3 in one Elite slot. That would be 12 BS5 Str9(10)AP2 shots for roughly 500pts. Still judging if i'd want to let my opponent deal with something like that... 

 

Thing is, are you still talking about Units/Weapons against 'Stodes?

'Cause i dont think, i'd want to send Deliverers/Furies Against 'Stodes, maybe Furies against possible 3+ bikers, but thats it! xD

 

Yeah, i don't think, a HSS is bad, but when i have only one slot to use, they don't make it.

And you just need rhinos with Lights to clear the vision for other targets. that way, even dreads can see beyond 24" and still hit on 3s =]

 

I love Boxnoughts...

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

14 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yeah well, i don't see a deredeo when it comes to only having 1HS Slot.

IF you have only 1 Slot, then bring something that can dish out as well as taking it. And that screams Leviathan to me.

Deredeos are good, no doubt about that, i really like the plain and simple Anvilus Battery. But they got nerfed and can no longer intercept two targets, so their output against flyers, compared to a Las-Box, may have "more" shots, but when you hit flyers on 2s, then you don't need more than four shots.

A Deredeo has also less usefull ap2 output than one Las-Box and costs, at least 50pts more, if you give him plasma.

Also, for me, he's to easily trapped in CC by fast enemy Unkts for our only HS Unit (Decap). 

 

A Levi costs around 400pts, with a DP, not 500, i don't know, where you got that from. and the good thing against custodes? It kills Custodes on every wound, yeah, they may get more attacks against your Levi, but they still only wound him on 6s with their Spears and Gauntlets/Meltabombs strike at initiative 1.

And with Melta Lance, Melta and Phosphex, he gets about 6-8 shots at ap1/2, at BS5 that.

Acgually, that is the ONLY Unit, i'd ever want to get into CC with Custodes, to be honest. 

Furies? They can "easily" made to do a disorderd charge, but even with ini5, they'll get a 3-5 man squad, but they'll get whiped in the process.

Deliverers? I'd send that dudes against everything!

Except Custodes. Custodes just wipe the floor with them...

 

PS: for now, it's also much easier to explain multiple Boxnoughts, than Contemptors/Leviathans/Deredeos to your opponent without instantly being "that guy" xD xD xD For now!!!

 

The math on custodes and the Leviathan is actually the custodes winning with equivalent points worth of Guardians, but a more common 5 man unit should lose to the Leviathan. 

 

Dark fury need an average of 14 attacks to burn through each of the custodes 2 wounds. An equivalent points worth of furies lose to custodes, without any hold the line or the custodes need to charge. Same thing with deliverers since they both proc Nemesis and can't benefit from battle hardened.

 

Even corax has some issues with larger units of them (he dies to 10), though between his movement speed and hit and run he should never actually get stuck fighting them.

 

And ya, deredeos would be amazing if the main problem units in the game were vehicles, like in 1st. 

[MichaelCarmine]

25 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The math on custodes and the Leviathan is actually the custodes winning with equivalent points worth of Guardians, but a more common 5 man unit should lose to the Leviathan. 

 

Dark fury need an average of 14 attacks to burn through each of the custodes 2 wounds. An equivalent points worth of furies lose to custodes, without any hold the line or the custodes need to charge. Same thing with deliverers since they both proc Nemesis and can't benefit from battle hardened.

 

Even corax has some issues with larger units of them (he dies to 10), though between his movement speed and hit and run he should never actually get stuck fighting them.

 

And ya, deredeos would be amazing if the main problem units in the game were vehicles, like in 1st. 

Did you account for the shooting of the Leviathan? In active shooting, he should be able to inflict an average 5 Wounds which should 4 wounds on a unit.

In reactive shooting 4 wounds, so 3-4 wounds on the Unit.

 

Thats atleast 90pts right there! =]

 

I'd say, that Custodes infantry ap2 Shooting is too short ranged, and can relatively easy be avoided with a little foresight in the own movement phase.

 

 

And did you account for shred with the Furies?

Each Chooser should be able to inflict about 2 wounds to a custodes thats 6 wounds with following 35 attacks on 5s, that should be about 11 hits, then 3-4 wounds and another 2-3 wounds on the reroll, so i'd come out with an average 11-13 wounds, which could whipe atleast a "normal" 5 man squad

Thats, ofcourse, if the firies attack and are not forced to charge disordered.

 

Unless my math is way off...which could be, its quite late here in germany xD

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Did you account for the shooting of the Leviathan? In active shooting, he should be able to inflict an average 5 Wounds which should 4 wounds on a unit.

In reactive shooting 4 wounds, so 3-4 wounds on the Unit.

 

Thats atleast 90pts right there! =]

 

I'd say, that Custodes infantry ap2 Shooting is too short ranged, and can relatively easy be avoided with a little foresight in the own movement phase.

 

 

And did you account for shred with the Furies?

Each Chooser should be able to inflict about 2 wounds to a custodes thats 6 wounds with following 35 attacks on 5s, that should be about 11 hits, then 3-4 wounds and another 2-3 wounds on the reroll, so i'd come out with an average 11-13 wounds, which could whipe atleast a "normal" 5 man squad

Thats, ofcourse, if the firies attack and are not forced to charge disordered.

 

Unless my math is way off...which could be, its quite late here in germany xD

 

 

No, just the melee on the Leviathan.

 

In overwatch meltas average 1.2, volkite 0.65, phosphex...is hard to say. Fully spaced you can only get 1 hit, but let's say 2 since people aren't the most diligent, averaging about 1.1. 

 

Killing 1 out of 10 on the overwatch is enough to let it win combat with 1 wound left after 3 wounds. You'd want it over hold the line, since it's the amount of follow up attacks that are killing the Leviathan. Shooting off the drop for another possible dead custode would top it further, though them getting enhanced cover or evade can dilute that pool. And if you're dropping it you seriously need to make sure it's not around an achillus, because those will kill a Leviathan in two rounds.

 

For the furies I did calculate shred. Even with the to wound value matching the rend for the optimal reroll, a chooser averages 1.3 unsaved wounds and a normal guy 0.74, translating to 9.2 unsaved wounds off the charge. 5 Guardians would cause 13.6, winning combat and probably running down the unit; just with the Leviathan youd need to soften the unit up a bit before the charge. Unlike the Leviathan example it's 305 of furies vs 240 of custodes, so it shows the problems with the guardians points.

[MichaelCarmine]

On 1/5/2023 at 2:22 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

No, just the melee on the Leviathan.

 

In overwatch meltas average 1.2, volkite 0.65, phosphex...is hard to say. Fully spaced you can only get 1 hit, but let's say 2 since people aren't the most diligent, averaging about 1.1. 

 

Killing 1 out of 10 on the overwatch is enough to let it win combat with 1 wound left after 3 wounds. You'd want it over hold the line, since it's the amount of follow up attacks that are killing the Leviathan. Shooting off the drop for another possible dead custode would top it further, though them getting enhanced cover or evade can dilute that pool. And if you're dropping it you seriously need to make sure it's not around an achillus, because those will kill a Leviathan in two rounds.

 

For the furies I did calculate shred. Even with the to wound value matching the rend for the optimal reroll, a chooser averages 1.3 unsaved wounds and a normal guy 0.74, translating to 9.2 unsaved wounds off the charge. 5 Guardians would cause 13.6, winning combat and probably running down the unit; just with the Leviathan youd need to soften the unit up a bit before the charge. Unlike the Leviathan example it's 305 of furies vs 240 of custodes, so it shows the problems with the guardians points.

Ah ok, see, i am speaking of a MeltaLance Leviathan. 

With 5 shots Melta (4+1).

I'm not counting Phosphex in overwatch, because it's a barrage weapon and can therefore not be used in a shooting reaction.

 

And with that loadout, it can even deal considerable damage to Custodian Dreadnought, before getting into Melee, what they in return cannot, due to their lack of AP2 shooting.

 

Not saying, that it would go well for a Leviathan and that he should definately stay out of CC against Custodian Dreads! But with that Loadout, it gets close. =]

[Mandragola]

I think my plan for Custodes is to play as loyalists and attendees v blue events where I’m unlikely to meet them. Dark furies clearly aren’t the answer - very little can fight them in melee.

 

im finding the limit of one HS slot fairly manageable as actually I don’t often take HS stuff at all. The one unit that really stands out to me (on paper at least) is predators with melta turrets. I think those would be better for dealing with problems like Spartans with flare shields than a boxnaught - though clearly the dread has a load of advantages of its own. 

[MichaelCarmine]

16 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

I think my plan for Custodes is to play as loyalists and attendees v blue events where I’m unlikely to meet them. Dark furies clearly aren’t the answer - very little can fight them in melee.

 

im finding the limit of one HS slot fairly manageable as actually I don’t often take HS stuff at all. The one unit that really stands out to me (on paper at least) is predators with melta turrets. I think those would be better for dealing with problems like Spartans with flare shields than a boxnaught - though clearly the dread has a load of advantages of its own. 

Yeah, Preds are really good, no Question about that. and much faster than Dreads. 

I played against WorldEaters at the last Event, who fielded 3 of them with MagnaMeltas. They are scary, when they get to shoot, but they have one profound weakness - they cannot react (shoot). So it's easy to fire at them without the fear of return fire. 

 

As an alternative, when you want something fast and deadly. 

If you have a FastAttack Slot to spare, you could try Speeders or Jetbikes, they can also get in Meltarange turn 1 and are fast enough to go around a FlareShield. 

 

But Preds are cool too, i have a pair for my IWs aswell. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Ah ok, see, i am speaking of a MeltaLance Leviathan. 

With 5 shots Melta (4+1).

I'm not counting Phosphex in overwatch, because it's a barrage weapon and can therefore not be used in a shooting reaction.

 

And with that loadout, it can even deal considerable damage to Custodian Dreadnought, before getting into Melee, what they in return cannot, due to their lack of AP2 shooting.

 

Not saying, that it would go well for a Leviathan and that he should definately stay out of CC against Custodian Dreads! But with that Loadout, it gets close. =]

 

I interpreted the restriction for shooting reactions as no barrage for out of los, but on the reread it seems to be a blanket bar like you said. Either way it'll get enough Guardians to win combat, and set up a potential trade with an Achillus. 

 

But ya, melta Levi is very strong and is a great one-off heavy support if you have the points. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Practice games for LVO day 1 today. I've got less than 2 weeks to finalize my list for day 1 and 2.

 

I have several options to play with and I've implemented a lot of advice here. Lately my lists have been destroying opponents. Usually tabling them by turn 4. I'm not taking anything drastic or spammy.

 

For fluff sake, I've decided to take a Praetor with Raven Talon's and a Nemesis Bolter on Corvid Jump Pack. While I hate taking the claws on my Praetor (in all honesty they suck in most challenges) I've kitbashed my own personality into the character using Edryk as a base, the claws from Shrike, and the nemesis bolter from the phobos captain. He looks damn good...even if he isn't very good himself. I'll keep you guys posted on how I feel about the current 2k list extending into 3k later today.

[xxxjtmxxx]

what is your list?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

My 2k list has several variations. Today was more about getting used to playing small games rather than how well the army performs. 

 

I tabled my opponent in turn 3.

 

List for today;

 

HQs

Praetor with Nemesis Bolter, Corvid JP, dual Raven's Talons

Librarian with Telepathy (I probably will switch out to something else)

 

Troops

Recon Squad Nemesis Bolters + infravisor

10man Tac squad, chain bayonets + Vox, AA + Fist sergeant

10man Tac squad, chain bayonets + Vox, AA + Raven Talon

10man Support Squad, Plasma guns + infravisor sergeant

 

Elites

Apothecary

Contemptor with Gravis Melta + melta gun fist, havoc launcher

 

Fast

10man Dark Furies, 3x Chooser upgrade

3 proteus speeders MM + HB

10man Seeker Squad, AA + bayonet Sergeant

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[xxxjtmxxx]

how do you Deal with vehicles?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Honestly vehichles suck in this edition. They are very easy to deal with. If you are bringing a ton of AV 14 you are paying for killing only a few models at a time. I've got over 50 bodies on the board, and I'm fast and infiltrating.

 

Perfect example is nuking a spartan turn 1 with speeders, followed by contemptor mopping up, or vice versa.

 

If the plasma squad needs to kill rhinos, it can. In 3k points you have a much easier time to deal with them with more multi-meltas.

 

People who want to bring 3-4 land raiders have usually already lost before the game starts.

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

how do you Deal with vehicles?

 

As he mentions, vehicles aren't in the best spot, and any av 14 vehicle that could start removing chunks of his army is locked out of 2000 due to being a lord of war. That point limit is a pretty significant factor; games tend to be pretty snowballey as lists have a good chance of lacking answers for their opponent.