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Serpents Lair: XXth Legion Tactica


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Posted (edited)

Discussion topic with regards to the Alpha Legion in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited by Slips
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Since I was lurking around already I might as well be first. :)

 

FUN FACT: None of our characters have the "Loyalist" or "Traitor" special rules so it's likely they can be in both Loyalist and Traitor armies. ;)

 

Fun new units for Rewards of Treason: (got to have LA(X) and not unique sub-type)

Iron Circle Maniple

Castellax-Achea Automata

Contemptor-Osiron Dreadnaught Talon

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Other Fun Fact: Exodus isn't Unique! I kinda expect this to get FAQ'ed, but I guess we'll see. Hopefully they also reduce the cost of CC upgrades for Lernaean Terminators while they're at it. I can accept WS4 on them (even if I'm not happy about it), but the 20-pt chainfists is insane!
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Since I was lurking around already I might as well be first. :smile.:

 

FUN FACT: None of our characters have the "Loyalist" or "Traitor" special rules so it's likely they can be in both Loyalist and Traitor armies. :wink:

 

Fun new units for Rewards of Treason: (got to have LA(X) and not unique sub-type)

Iron Circle Maniple

Castellax-Achea Automata

Contemptor-Osiron Dreadnaught Talon

And you can then infiltrate them all if you want using Alpharius

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Since I was lurking around already I might as well be first. :smile.:

 

FUN FACT: None of our characters have the "Loyalist" or "Traitor" special rules so it's likely they can be in both Loyalist and Traitor armies. :wink:

 

Fun new units for Rewards of Treason: (got to have LA(X) and not unique sub-type)

Iron Circle Maniple

Castellax-Achea Automata

Contemptor-Osiron Dreadnaught Talon

And you can then infiltrate them all if you want using Alpharius

 

 

Also, if the enemy tries to shoot at them you can use the AL reaction to move them 12" forward towards the enemy line... :P

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So how do we feel about Headhunters and the Leviathal RoW? I have about 6 upgrade kits lying around for them at home and the new beakies feel like a prime target for some conversion work.

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Headhunters are better than they used to be I reckon. The Power Daggers aren't specialist weapons anymore so they'll get an extra attack from the bolt pistol, they have better rending and the "sudden strike" that I don't know what it does. The ammo has S5 and proper rending this time, and they have precision shots on 4+, which makes it easier to snipe those apothecaries, special weapons and sergeants. I'm happier with them now than I was in 1.0 at least. 

 

The RoW though, not sure (and I'm at work so I can't remember the exact rules). It'll be easy enough to spend FA slots with javelins and stuff, but having vehicles in reserves could be crap...if they're not vehicles that are in reserves anyway like fliers, dreadclaws or termites and such...

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Purely hypothetically - because not like I'd start 2(!) new legions for the release of 2.0 and the 2nd one definitely is NOT Alpha Legion - what would you suggest as a starting force for a person who'd want to start AL, unlike me? Let's say roughly in the reguon of 1500pts, primarily geared towards ZM style and considering what we know so far. How many headhunters is too many and larneans are worth it or better to get some regular termies?
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Purely hypothetically - because not like I'd start 2(!) new legions for the release of 2.0 and the 2nd one definitely is NOT Alpha Legion - what would you suggest as a starting force for a person who'd want to start AL, unlike me? Let's say roughly in the reguon of 1500pts, primarily geared towards ZM style and considering what we know so far. How many headhunters is too many and larneans are worth it or better to get some regular termies?

Well, 20 guys with bolters and a HQ is never a wrong start :P

 

Personally I won't be getting Lernaeans, depending on their cost. As with all other termies they gained a wound, but lost Ws5. Their special rule will only come into play if you play against marines and IWND will only come into play on those rare occasions you have a termie with a single wound left, and even then it's only on 5+. Depending on their cost regular termies could probably be better.

 

I do like the Headhunters and they got a huge boost imho (were kinda crap last edition in any case), and I will be converting some myself. Not sure on how many though, their usual comparison with Seekers will depend on their ammo rules and points cost, either of which we don't know yet.

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Just remember: Alpharius *can* allow you to infiltrate or deepstrike fully loaded Spartans/Land Raiders since vehicles now have LA:X meaning it and the unit theyre a dedicated transport of fit under the requirements of everywhere and nowhere.

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Just remember: Alpharius *can* allow you to infiltrate or deepstrike fully loaded Spartans/Land Raiders since vehicles now have LA:X meaning it and the unit theyre a dedicated transport of fit under the requirements of everywhere and nowhere.

Heck, he could infiltrate or deep strike fellblades and such, if they get the LA(X) rule :P

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Just remember: Alpharius *can* allow you to infiltrate or deepstrike fully loaded Spartans/Land Raiders since vehicles now have LA:X meaning it and the unit theyre a dedicated transport of fit under the requirements of everywhere and nowhere.

Heck, he could infiltrate or deep strike fellblades and such, if they get the LA(X) rule :tongue.:

 

Or a fully loaded mastodon, too.

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I'd have to reread the deep strike rules but if it says "within 12" of the first deepstriking model/unit" having a larger model/unit such as a LR or Spartan be the first thing to drop in could give you a larger bubble to land stuff within.

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I'd have to reread the deep strike rules but if it says "within 12" of the first deepstriking model/unit" having a larger model/unit such as a LR or Spartan be the first thing to drop in could give you a larger bubble to land stuff within.

You ideally want to lead with pods because they can't scatter into enemy units. And within, just means toe-ing the 12" and still have the rest of the model extend past that; it doesn't say wholly within.

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Does the Reward of Treason change instances of Legiones Astartes (X) for abilities? Before it didn't and when I look at the leaked version it seems to only change the borrowed unit's legion from X to Alpha Legion. Which if that's the case there's no taking Dark Angels Deathwing Companions still.

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Posted (edited)

 

 

Just remember: Alpharius *can* allow you to infiltrate or deepstrike fully loaded Spartans/Land Raiders since vehicles now have LA:X meaning it and the unit theyre a dedicated transport of fit under the requirements of everywhere and nowhere.

Heck, he could infiltrate or deep strike fellblades and such, if they get the LA(X) rule :tongue.:

 

Or a fully loaded mastodon, too.

 

 

 

In a game of around 5k, and every unit inside mastadon would need to have infiltrate.

Better use would be to infiltrate 9 leviathans xD

Edited by Fallen11
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Just remember: Alpharius *can* allow you to infiltrate or deepstrike fully loaded Spartans/Land Raiders since vehicles now have LA:X meaning it and the unit theyre a dedicated transport of fit under the requirements of everywhere and nowhere.

Heck, he could infiltrate or deep strike fellblades and such, if they get the LA(X) rule :tongue.:

 

Or a fully loaded mastodon, too.

 

 

 

In a game of around 5k, and every unit inside mastadon would need to have infiltrate.

Better use would be to infiltrate 9 leviathans xD

 

We will have to watch the cheese with this ability....  I fear for what transitioning 40k players may bring to the table as this could result in some very unfriendly lists

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Posted (edited)

 

 

 

 

Just remember: Alpharius *can* allow you to infiltrate or deepstrike fully loaded Spartans/Land Raiders since vehicles now have LA:X meaning it and the unit theyre a dedicated transport of fit under the requirements of everywhere and nowhere.

Heck, he could infiltrate or deep strike fellblades and such, if they get the LA(X) rule :tongue.:

 

Or a fully loaded mastodon, too.

 

 

 

In a game of around 5k, and every unit inside mastadon would need to have infiltrate.

Better use would be to infiltrate 9 leviathans xD

 

We will have to watch the cheese with this ability....  I fear for what transitioning 40k players may bring to the table as this could result in some very unfriendly lists

 

Heres the thing.

 

9 Infiltrating or Deepstriking leviathans is all your heavy support slots. Each levi, assuming Phosphex, 1 claw and 1 melta/grav is 310. Cheaper than they used to be, sure, but its 2790pts if it doesnt change from playtest.

 

2 Leviathans, alone, would be 620 points. If youre taking Alpharius, too, hes 465 meaning 3 models in your army are taking up 1085 points.

 

Its a powerful ability but youre probably not going to see 9 Deepstriking or Infiltrating Leviathans outside of really big, multiplayer games.

 

It just shows whats possible for the AL, now, though if you think outside the box a bit.

Edited by Slips
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Can't wait for the generic legion army list, it's going to be fun to experiment with a few things. :)

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm personally still on the fence but am thinking real hard about starting an AL force using Mk VI marines primarily. Also, because theyre a traitor legion but have nothing overtly traitor and have a loyalist WLT and that makes me giggle.

 

My Initial idea was something along the lines of:

HQ:

  • Dynat (HHL RoW)
  • Exodus
  • Vigilator/Saboteur

Troops:

  • Headhunters w/ Multimelta, Artificer armor
  • Headhunters w/ Multimelta, Artificer armor (debating swapping the rest of the squad over to Combi-grenades for free to have 24" S5 Ap4 shooting with kraks and assault 1 or melta for one, hard, hit)
  • Recons w/ Snipers, Artificer, nuncio, vox and augur
  • Recons w/ Snipers, Artificer, nuncio, vox and augur

Elites:

  • Apothecaries w/ Artificer and Dagger; luckily they now gain all the USRs of units they join as well as unit type.
  • TBD: Contemptors; No real idea on loadout

Fast Attack:

  • Seekers w/ Vox, Nuncio, Augur, Arificer, Dagger
  • Seekers w/ Vox, Nuncio, Augur, Arificer, Dagger

Heavy Support:

  • Leviathan 2x (Melta & Drill) & (Grav & Claw)
  • Deredeo 2x Arachnus Las & Autocannons

Dynats WLT would allow him to grant infiltrate to the 2 dread squadrons and himself so that the whole army can infiltrate with some being able to scout as well.

Most of the Army's infantry would also have the Skirmish sub-type allowing for a 3" Coherency the only snag in that being the HQ choices who do not have it so them joining any squad would force 2" coherency back onto them.

Unfortunately, HH's cant take Augury Scanners so if night fighting or any interception needs to happen, theyre SoL. Everyone else, though, can so thats great.

Also, just the idea of a BS5, Twin-Linked, Precision Shots 4+ Multimelta w/ Relentless makes me giggle.

The Seekers' Kraken bolters, imho, are good enough. No real need to upgrade to a magna combi or other weapon. 30" with Kraken bolts or S5 AP4 Assault 1, Breaching 4+ with Scorpius rounds means they should do fine taking out infantry.

Only point of weakness I can see is massed 2+ saves or blocks of Cataphractii Terminators or CC armies who can get in close and fast. Decided to stick with Power Daggers because of their relative cheapness and having Breaching 5+ with Sudden Strike so having the potential to take out their opponents before they swing back.

The only real CC powerhouses in the army as it stands at this stage is Dynat (if all things line up, can get 1 powersword & 6 thunderhammer attacks), the Contemptors - if included - and Leviathans.

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5 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

dont underestimate the hh teams in combat. Power daggers are Real good this Edition.

 

i dont see a rewards unit?

Yeah, thats why everyone who can take a Dagger has one.

 

Dont see a reason to take one; no units really stand out to be as something I'd like to take. 

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I like it Slips! I’ve been playing around with variations on the theme of a Headhunter heavy build, something like:

 

HQ:

Dynat

 

Troops:

Tactical squad with chain bayonets, Sergeant with Artificer and Power Fist

Tactical squad with chain bayonets, Sergeant with Artificer and Power Fist

 

Fast Attack:

Headhunter Kill Team - 10 strong, multi melta and 4 magna-meltas - PF and AA, with Rhino

Headhunter Kill Team - 10 strong, multi melta and 4 magna-meltas - PF and AA, with Rhino

Headhunter Kill Team - 10 strong, multi melta and 4 magna-meltas - PF and AA, with Rhino

 

Heavy Support

2x Scorpiuses

10 Tyrant siege terminators

Spartan

 

Alpharius 

 

It’s a little over 3k, I’d be cutting out the MMs on the Headhunters to fit (or carving off a body or two), but it does look very fun! Pretty themed, slightly light on line, and one hefty unit grabbed by Coils… I could swap the Scorpiuses for more Tacticals. Otherwise… Just ideal. I need to check everything and refine, but hoping to be building towards this in time.

Edited by Chaeron
Formatting and additional thought!
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Yeah, Im still unsure on the size of Headhunter Squads. The multimelta option is only ever 1 in the squad regardless of size so you arent getting an extra one if you add more bodies.

What you are getting is obviously more wounds in the squad, power dagger attacks and banestrike bolters.

Now, with regards to the Sergeant, I'm also on the fence about giving him a Power Fist. Its a specialist weapons and power daggers no longer are. So you wouldnt be getting +1A for having 2 CCW. However, if you had, say, a Dagger (which is breaching 5+ and Sudden Strike) and a Power Weapon, youd be getting the extra attack. Sure, you wouldnt be IDing T4 or lower due to the lack of S8 but if youre mainly fighting against 1-2W models, I dont see it as too much of a draw back especially if you kill the target before they swing because Breaching Kicked in and you were swinging at I5.

Similarly, Minor Combis being free, I'd probably opt to swap any Banestrike Bolters over to Combi-Grenades so that you can either have massed 3" Blasts with pinning or an S5 Ap4 shot at 24" which is more range than the Banestrike (by a tiny bit but it helps). Sure, Headhunters are Relentless and can still charge after firing their banestrikes but only being Breaching 6+ and S5 doesnt seem like enough. Especially with Precision Shots (4+) meaning you can just allocate hits where you want them to go more often than not.

If anything, 1MM, 1in3 Combi Meltas and the rest of the squad being Combi Grenades might be the play for them with the only other upgrade being AA on the Sarge. With Scout and Infiltrate as well as Skirmish Sub-Type youre probably find running them without a transport since you can pretty much put them where you want them to be off the bat.

Also, with how powerful pinning is this edition, I think instead of more tacs, you'd want Recons with Snipers instead. They have S5 Rending Snipers with Pinning meaning you can attempt to pick off LD boosting characters in squads and potentially lock down the unit. They are also still scoring with Line and have Skirmish for 3" Coherency making them unappealing targets for any template less than 5" in diameter. Similarly, the sub-type grants +1 to cover saves in terrain making them sneakily harder to deal with without any other overt increases to toughness like, say, an attached Apothecary.

Speaking of Apothecaries, they gain the sub-type and ALL special rules of units they are attached to. However, other HQs, like Vigilators which are REALLY GOOD CHOICES this edition, do not have skirmish sub-type so if you attach one to a squad of Seekers, Recons or Headhunters, their coherency would collapse back down to 2". But then, you have an HQ choice with an MC'd Sniper that has Rending and Precision Shots (2+) and Pinning making it all but a guarantee to take out 1W characters of your choice in squads.

I would also not sleep on upgrades like Vexillas, Nuncios and Augury Scanners. They do balloon costs but the benefits they provide, imho, are very much worth it. The big ones being Nuncios and Augury Scanners allowing you to bypass most of the negatives that come with Night Fighting.

Having Snipers you can infiltrate and/or scout into positions of your choice and ignore the range penalty of Night Fighting thanks to Augury Scanners is one hell of a benefit to have if your opponent, themselves, doesnt have them.

Also, for vehicles, especially cheap ones like Rhinos, I'd strongly consider buying a searchlight for them if augury scanners on everything makes points too tight. They would at least allow you some measure of overcoming the range limits at the downside of making the searchlight using vehicle more vulnerable.

Finally, Exodus: He's got the Light Subtype. And he always fires his gun at full BS6 no matter what and ignores night fighting and things like Shrouded. That means he can Move, Run (with +1init bonus thanks to Light) and Shoot his gun at either 72" Heavy 1 S7 Ap1 or 24" S7 Ap2 Assault 3 both with pinning and sunder (among other things) in the same turn. Otherwise, you just let him sit still and shoot down important characters with the Heavy 1 Shot having Brutal (3). All in all, his is MUCH improved.

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