HH 2.0 Serpents Lair: XXth Legion Tactica

[ashc]

18 minutes ago, Cactus said:

You should be ok to take the transport as it's an option for the unit, but it will have LA: Alpha Legion rather than whatever benefit LA: Iron Hands would normally provide.

Yes, absolutely this. Anything on the datasheet is fair game for Rewards of Treachery, but everything will be Legiones Astartes: Alpha Legion.

[Fifty]

So I am wondering what people are doing about Rewards of Treachery? Also, I'm building an army with what I like rather than building from the start towards a particular tactic, then trying to bolt some tactics on later. As I haven't really played much, I don't have a clue wha to do strategy/tactics wise!  I'm starting at low points, around 1000 or 1250, so initially playing Zone Mortalis, then moving up to other types of game.

I've decided to take some Iron Circle robots. I am using a Forge Lord consul as my Warlord to run along in a unit with them to get past their automata rules. Later, I can add a unit of Thallax too because of him.

Alogn with that, two units of tactical marines with bayonets and accompanied by an Apothecary each. Finally, I have a unit of Indomitus Terminators with combi-bolters and power fists.

My feeling is that use the Terminators and robots with the Forge Lord to engage the enemy at short range, whilst the two Tactical Squads head towards objectives to take advantage of Heart of the Legion. Beyond that, I haven't much of a clue! Anything obvious I am missing? How can I get the most out of my expensive robots?

Any suggestions on what to do at 1500 to 1750? I am thinking that once I move past ZM games, I'll need some pinning, so was planning to add some Nemesis Bolters via Scouts. I also like the look of HeadHunters. I reckon I'll give them Combi-weapons instead of Banestrike though...

[9x19 Parabellum]

I haven't dedicated myself to any RoT units yet, but some contenders are:

-Salamander firedrake Terminators

-Iron Warriors Siege Tyrant Terminators

-Ultramarine Fulmentarus Terminators

I'm particularly drawn to the Iron Warrior terminators because they are a heavy support slot and therefore wouldn't compete for the 4 elite slots we have (Contemptor Talon, Apothecary Detachment, Lernean Terminators, only leaves room for 1 more Elite). 

[Imren]

I went to an event last weekend that was quite dreadnought heavy. Here are some of my lessons learned/conclusions (fist point actually a corrected lesson learned from a misunterstanding of a rule that Xneith below points out):

• Enemy units needs to deduce 8" from their shooting attack range to be in range to shoot recon marines (6" shroud bombs, 2" AL special rule). Add an Exodus to this unit, they synergise very well but watch out for enemy recons marines as they can pick him out. but that S7 AP1 brutal(2) is awesome to plink off wounds from dreadnoughts if you can't aim at enemy special characters. If you run Headhunter leviathal as your RoW then that's extra 3VP for taking out then enemy warlord if he is footslogging or even a dreadnought.
• I know that lascannon contemptors and HSS lascannon squads are very popular, haldf of the armies at the event had both or at least one of those units. But what really did some good work for it points are actually box dreads with lascannons on both arms. They are cheaper but still a dread at T6 and the 1" less movement doesn't matter much since they stand back and shoot but are tough get rid of, much better option than HSS lascannons since the dread can move and shoot and gets the angles and prevent enemy easily hiding from static HSS units. Also haveing 2+ 5++ helps alot compared to HSS 3+.
• Infiltrating Lerneans are very good in objective games, they are difficult to shift although they don't do combat that good. Especially if you can infiltrate out of line of from HSS lascannons with augury scanners.
• In objective games, don't shoot you load quicly to save a squad with the advanced reaction that allows us to move 12" +D6 sscatter, it can be very usefull to get to objectives late game in an unexpected way for the enemy. Alpharius in the list giving infiltrate to three units such as 10x recons marines, 10x Lerneans and 10x suzerains that infiltrates on top of objectives in games where you score each turn is very useful!
• Alpha legion is quite a challenging legion to play with missions that are about killing units for VPs. But in objective games they excel thanks to Lerneans and Recon marines having line and also you can take a strong elite choice from other legions that also have innate line, such as suzerains.
• Consider taking a mara gal dreadnought from the WB legion, it's brutal!
• Bring a Xiphon to 3k games, there will be flyers and that advanced reaction of combat air space patrol is gold with xiphons, at 105 points, bring two.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Imren

[Xenith]

On 10/10/2022 at 11:43 PM, Imren said:

any enemy unit needs at least to roll minimum 9+ on their charge roll to charge recon squads (2" for AL special rule + 6" from skirmish rule

 

What do you mean by that? Are you meaning Shroud bombs? The skirmish rule is just 3" coherency instead of 2", while shroud bombs are against shooting attacks only, they don't increase charge range. 

[Imren]

19 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

What do you mean by that? Are you meaning Shroud bombs? The skirmish rule is just 3" coherency instead of 2", while shroud bombs are against shooting attacks only, they don't increase charge range. 

 

Yes! Thanks, I realise now that I confused this rule with the AL special rule, while AL lies and obfuscation rule applies to charging and shooting, shroud bombs only applied to shooting attacks. I I guess I didn't deserve some of the victory points at the event.

 

I edited the previous message.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Imren

[Ripper.McGuirl]

If anyone gives you any guff about it, just tell them part you are method acting and any rules inaccuracies are on your opponent to catch if they can.

[Imren]

4 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

If anyone gives you any guff about it, just tell them part you are method acting and any rules inaccuracies are on your opponent to catch if they can.

 

I understand, but It's my responsibility to know the rules of my legion generally and specifically units I play and be open and honest about them. This misconception was really a confusion of the lies and obfuscation rule (hehe, I see the almost pun if this) and the rules for shroud bombs.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Imren

[Asta]

Hi,

 

with the 2.0 custodes, arent Fulmentarus a better choice with their Hellfire plasma missiles? (AP2)

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Yeah but Ultramarines are dumb, so, no thanks.

[Xenith]

On 11/9/2022 at 12:56 AM, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Yeah but Ultramarines are dumb, so, no thanks.

 

That's why we took their stuff and use it for ourselves?

 

In the last couple of games I've taken a Sabateur with twin claws and nemesis and run him with a 10 man seeker unit for -8" range on them, it's let me outrange my IF opponent's assault cannon units and bolter marines and such, and the seekers are pretty killy on their own - 10 men generally get 8 hits, 5 precision, then from that 2/3 precision breaching, 1 precision armour save, then 1 imprecise breaching and another imprecise save.  That's usually good for killing off any unit upgrades and attached apoc in one round. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Xenith

[Xenith]

Question for the council of Truth, is Exodus actually any good? I'm comparing him to a vigilator with nemesis+ dagger and he doesn't seem worth the extra 65pts or so, minus shroud bombs.

 

A 100 pt Vigilator gets a MC nemesis and rending 2+ sniper. So hits on a 2+ with a reroll then precision AP2 on a 2+ to wound, with a potential reroll for Marked for Death, he then chooses infiltrate or scout. On top of pinning, the vigilator gets Shell Shock (1) so if you pop a sergeant, the target unit is likely taking a test on Ld6. 

 

Exodus gets 1 shot at BS6, so hitting on 2+ will reroll on a 6+ (less accurate than a nobody vigilator). He can rapid shot to kill 3 models, but loses sniper, or has to wound at S7 AP1 with no possible reroll. If he stays still, he can upgrade to Brutal 2, however on a model like a praetor this is still likely only 1 wound going through at the cost of mobility. To cap it all, he doesnt have Shell Shock. 

 

Additionally, he's limited to immobile recon squads, or short range, mobile headhunter units, neither of which he's really suitable for. 

 

Are you getting any milage from Exodus, or is he inferior to a standard vigilator in terms of assassination. Or is he even inferior to the 8 man seeker unit he costs the same as...

[MDops]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:41 AM, Xenith said:

If he stays still, he can upgrade to Brutal 2, however on a model like a praetor this is still likely only 1 wound going through at the cost of mobility. To cap it all, he doesnt have Shell Shock. 

 

Just on this, the relentless rule and the requirements to get Brutal 2. There is a possibility that he gets it permanently due to bad rule writing.

 

Unsure how this changes the maths but would improve the use in headhunter squads.

Edited January 5, 2023 by MDops

[Xenith]

With the newly released 40K FAQ's, I'm inclined to believe you there. The Eldar ability Swift Strikes makes you count as stationary in the shooting phase, and the Battle Focus ability allows a move after shooting unless you have advanced in the movement phase*. The ability that allows you to count as stationary in the movement phase overrides the 'advance' state of the model from the movement phase. 

 

As remaining stationary is a 'state' or actionthe model can make, Relentless saying the model counts as stationary would override the fact that the model had actually moved, meaning the execution shot is always at Brutal 2. 

 

Battle Focus

Spoiler

 

Swift Strikes

 

Spoiler

 

 

FAQ

Spoiler

 

*usual caveats of assuming GW rulings will be consistent. However this is precedent with which to sway a TO. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Xenith

[Gorgoff]

What has a 40k FAQ to do with Horus Heresy?

It is a comolete different game with different rulewriters and different design philosophy and target audience. 

 

 

[MDops]

Agreed and a little off topic.

 

For the Exodus, I feel he has a little more flexibility than the Vigilator which is the extra cost your paying for. While there are a few one wound models that both of these would be firing at, there are also the TEQ Sargents that you might consider trying to hamper while they are out in the open.

 

Mostly hypothetical at this stage. Haven't played with him but keen to

[Slips]

Similarly, Exodus being Light and Skirmish means he doesnt break unit sub-typing unlike the Vigilator, who does.

[Xenith]

5 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

What has a 40k FAQ to do with Horus Heresy?

It is a comolete different game with different rulewriters and different design philosophy and target audience. 

 

 

 

Well, not really, HH is based off the 40k ruleset, with the same design philosophy to get you to buy more models, and the target audience overlaps on the venn diagram. Otherwise no one that plays 40k would play heresy, while heresy target is a subsection of 40k players. 

 

GW produces all of these books. If "counts as stationary" means one thing in one book, it'll mean the same thing in another book. 

[MichaelCarmine]

2 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Well, not really, HH is based off the 40k ruleset, with the same design philosophy to get you to buy more models, and the target audience overlaps on the venn diagram. Otherwise no one that plays 40k would play heresy, while heresy target is a subsection of 40k players. 

 

GW produces all of these books. If "counts as stationary" means one thing in one book, it'll mean the same thing in another book. 

Yeah, off a 40k rulesset from 7th, not 9th. 

I'm pretty sure, by DesignPhilosophy @Gorgoff meant Rules design.

And i think it's also an open secret, that the Heresy game is in its core aimed at a more mature audience.

 

Nonetheless, you can't just go around and interpret rules off of a completely different game and use this interpretation to bolster an "argument" on a Heresy rule. 

That's not how that works.

Even in your example, Stationary can mean two comlpetely different things among different games. I don't know, what it's definition is in 40k, but since they don't use armor values or arcs in 40k, i'm pretty sure it's different from the Heresy wording.

[Xenith]

Ok, so relentless doesn't let Exodus have Brutal 2 when moving?

[Gorgoff]

8 hours ago, Xenith said:

Ok, so relentless doesn't let Exodus have Brutal 2 when moving?

Deadly Aim specifically says so, yes. If he moved you don't get the bonus.

You could argue that Relentless circumvent this, sure, but than you completely ignore the fact that it doesnt make any sense. But yes, RAW he can use it while moving because of Relentless.

Until GW adresses this in a FAQ anyway. 

20 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Well, not really, HH is based off the 40k ruleset, with the same design philosophy to get you to buy more models,

Thats a business philosophy you speak of. 

18 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yeah, off a 40k rulesset from 7th, not 9th. 

I'm pretty sure, by DesignPhilosophy @Gorgoff meant Rules design.

 

20 hours ago, Xenith said:

and the target audience overlaps on the venn diagram.

 

Of course it does. That's why we have this little discussion here. 

20 hours ago, Xenith said:

Otherwise no one that plays 40k would play heresy, while heresy target is a subsection of 40k players. 

 

Since 40k is base on the game 30k is based on it would be the other way around. Which is true by the way.

Most HH players I know don't play 40k. 

20 hours ago, Xenith said:

GW produces all of these games. If "counts as stationary" means one thing in one game, it'll mean the same thing in another game. 

Fixed it and no, it clearly doesn't. Those are two different games and what is true in one doesn't matter in the other game. 

Anyway, 40k has nothing ro do in the 30k rules section apart from the one thing we all agree on:

 

GW writtes :cuss:ty rules, because they are too vague in their definitions, obviously just glue together rules made by different people at different times who never talks to one another, don't make a final control reading of their rules by competent rules experts and doesn't make enough testgames. 

What a shame since the idea of the game and the core structure is entertaining and very rewarding but the execution is poorly just like the rest of GWs ruleswork. 

And yes, I intended the pun with execution. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Gorgoff

[Brother Sutek]

10 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Most HH players I know don't play 40k. 

I know I quit 40k after trying 8th for a few months. Heresy in 2nd edition isn't really what I want despite them fixing several things. That's not the topic so I'll stop the rant.

[MichaelCarmine]

12 hours ago, Xenith said:

Ok, so relentless doesn't let Exodus have Brutal 2 when moving?

No it doesn't.

Relentless only refers to weapon types, not special rules. So it only has an effect on his Weapon. He can shoot his Heavy profile, despite having moved in the previous movement phase without a negative modifier to his BS. His Special Rule "Assassin's Eye" allows him that too and more. 

 

But for the Special Rule to trigger, he has to not move in the Movement phase. 

 

The fact that he has Relentless, despite having Assassin's eye, comes from the fact, that every Praetor and Centurion has the Relentless rule, no matter if they need it, or not.

[xxxjtmxxx]

Question about Dynaths Thunderstrike.

 

When he is in combat with 3 modells and he Hits 4 Times, does it mean that he can do 3 Hits with the prophet? or only 1 time?

[Xenith]

It says "model" as I recall. My interpretation is that each mod hit with the sword then is eligible to receive a smack from the hammer, so use his precision strikes to your advantage!