HH 2.0 Serpents Lair: XXth Legion Tactica

[Xenith]

On 1/6/2023 at 11:31 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

Relentless only refers to weapon types, not special rules. So it only has an effect on his Weapon.

Check relentless again. There are two parts to relentless - The model counts as stationary, so not moving, allowing firing of heavy weapons, and has a separate section that allows charging after firing rapid or heavy weapon. 

[MichaelCarmine]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

Check relentless again. There are two parts to relentless - The model counts as stationary, so not moving, allowing firing of heavy weapons, and has a separate section that allows charging after firing rapid or heavy weapon. 

Don't need to check again i know the Rule.

Where are you going at with this?

It still is refering to the weapon type, so no counting as stationary for using a special rule/force power (that isn't a weapon).

 

You have to understand, that his special rule has nothing to do with his weapon, more with his skill to use this weapon.

 

Relentless allows his weapon (the heavy profile) to be fired, even when he moves. And he can even charge after firing with that profile!

 

But if he wants to get Brutal(2) for this shot, he has to be stationary for, that turn and cannot make a charge after shooting.

 

So no, you cannot use Brutal(2) on your heavy profile, if you moved him in the movement phase of that Turn, but you can shoot with the heavy profile and count for that as being stationary(so you do not have to make snap shots).

 

However, if you're going second, then you can react with him getting Brutal(2), because you haven't jet moved him that turn.

[Eralam]

Been reading on this forum about 2K HL Lists, here's my attempt coming out to exactly that.

Idea being for Headhunters to infiltrate on and make big dents with the volkite chargers. Dynat's WT gets put to use infiltrating the weapons carriers into good positions after deployment - Laser Destroyers on one team and Lascannons on the LR (transporting Dynat + Suzerains) should be enough anti armour at this tier? Exoduses slot into the Headhunters for TEQ / IC murder, trying to Slay the Warlord ASAP.

 

Unlucky that we can't attach apothecaries to Headhunters the way wider infiltrate allowed last edition, and obvs you could vary this list around the RoT unit you choose - I've seen Tyrants, Fulmentarus and Butchers as popular choices; I'd also be interested to see how Deathshroud work. If scaling up, you could switch out Dynat for a Hydran Excursor and ally Custodes? Against Legions at least, that could be quite powerful. If you wanted to experiment with alternating killing power and stealth, you might swap an Exodus for a Saboteur to prevent his attached squad getting shot until they're ready, but if it's purely about the Warlord and nothing else, you might consider Seekers? In any case, seemed that proposing a full hypothesis might be a good way to enliven discussion.

Allegiance:

 XX: Alpha Legion
Rewards of Treachery:   XIII: Ultramarines

Loyalist

Rite of War: Headhunter Leviathal (AL)

HQ:

Armillus Dynat: Artificer Armour, Warlord

Exodus

Exodus

Elites:

Invictarus Suzerain Squad - 10x Suzerain w/Bolt Pistol & Legatine Axe: 10x Bolt Pistol, 10x Legatine Axe 
Land Raider Proteus Carrier: Heavy Flamer, Hull (Front) Mounted Hunter-Killer Missile, Searchlights, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter

Rapier Battery: 6x Bolt Pistol, 6x Bolter, Laser Destroyer, Rapier Carrier (& Gunners), Rapier Carrier (& Gunners), Rapier Carrier (& Gunners)

Rapier Battery: 6x Bolt Pistol, 6x Bolter, Gravis Heavy Bolter Battery, Rapier Carrier (& Gunners), Rapier Carrier (& Gunners), Rapier Carrier (& Gunners)

Rapier Battery: 6x Bolt Pistol, 6x Bolter, Gravis Heavy Bolter Battery, Rapier Carrier (& Gunners), Rapier Carrier (& Gunners), Rapier Carrier (& Gunners)

Troops
Headhunter Kill Team
Headhunter Prime: Minor Combi-Weapon - Volkite Charger, Bolt Pistol, Artificer Armour, Power Fist
Headhunter w/Combi-weapon: Minor Combi-Weapon - Volkite Charger *9

Headhunter Kill Team
Headhunter Prime: Minor Combi-Weapon - Volkite Charger, Bolt Pistol, Artificer Armour, Power Fist
Headhunter w/Combi-weapon: Minor Combi-Weapon - Volkite Charger * 9

Edited January 8, 2023 by Eralam
More complete list.

[2gud2bbad]

My comments in bullet points:

 

- Dynat is solid, but a cheap Delegatus with Master of Lies works better for HHL

- Vigilator > Exodus imo, cheaper and can reliably kill sergeants and force pinning check at LD6 (because shellshock)

- Vehicles must start in reserve for HHL sadly

- Rapiers with LD are points inefficient against HSS w LC/Havocs

- Wouldn't take heavy bolters for marine on marine action - either use frag shells (shred) or better HSS with Volkite Culverin

- Kill teams are too expensive for 10 man, imo 5 man squads work best with all meltas to nail ICs on precision shots

 

For reference, what I play for 2k HHL

 

HQ

Delegatus w power dagger and combi-melta and Master of lies as WL Trait

2 x Vigilator w power dagger

 

Troops

2 x 5 HH with Multi Melta, 3 Combi-Melta, AA, Combi-Melta and Inferno Pistol on Sgt

 

FA

2 x 10 Seekers with AA on Sgt

1 x 5 HH with Multi Melta, 3 Combi-Melta, AA, Combi-Melta and Inferno Pistol on Sgt

 

Heavy Support

10 Iron Havocs with AA on Sgt

Leviathan w Calivers, 1 Siege Drill, Phosphey in Drop pod

 

2k depending on final equipment but you get the idea

 

This is also not really a min-maxed list but i think it's cool and fluffy. 

 

The trick here is to redeploy the 3 kill teams as close as possible to enemy WL for T1 and to snipe him with rerollable 2+ hits and wounds that double out T4 and are precision on 4+. If he's in a transport you can pop it first with the meltas or the Havoc lascannons. If this doesn't work you drop in the leviathan and should be able to kill everything your opponent brings at 2k that has survived the first turn shooting from the kill teams. Seekers are there to kill everything else and are pretty annoying with their 2" extra distance for reactions and charging. Vigilators pin units as previously said or can also help with enery WL.

 

This list has a big drawback in that it hasn't got any line units. You have to go for the fast WL kill to make it work, but i think it's also a fluffy trade-off to it. For 3k I would probably ally in some Solar Aux for lots of cheap line with high LD to go for objectives. 

 

 

 

[Imren]

21 hours ago, 2gud2bbad said:

My comments in bullet points:

 

- Dynat is solid, but a cheap Delegatus with Master of Lies works better for HHL

- Vigilator > Exodus imo, cheaper and can reliably kill sergeants and force pinning check at LD6 (because shellshock)

- Vehicles must start in reserve for HHL sadly

- Rapiers with LD are points inefficient against HSS w LC/Havocs

- Wouldn't take heavy bolters for marine on marine action - either use frag shells (shred) or better HSS with Volkite Culverin

- Kill teams are too expensive for 10 man, imo 5 man squads work best with all meltas to nail ICs on precision shots

 

For reference, what I play for 2k HHL

 

HQ

Delegatus w power dagger and combi-melta and Master of lies as WL Trait

2 x Vigilator w power dagger

 

Troops

2 x 5 HH with Multi Melta, 3 Combi-Melta, AA, Combi-Melta and Inferno Pistol on Sgt

 

FA

2 x 10 Seekers with AA on Sgt

1 x 5 HH with Multi Melta, 3 Combi-Melta, AA, Combi-Melta and Inferno Pistol on Sgt

 

Heavy Support

10 Iron Havocs with AA on Sgt

Leviathan w Calivers, 1 Siege Drill, Phosphey in Drop pod

 

2k depending on final equipment but you get the idea

 

This is also not really a min-maxed list but i think it's cool and fluffy. 

 

The trick here is to redeploy the 3 kill teams as close as possible to enemy WL for T1 and to snipe him with rerollable 2+ hits and wounds that double out T4 and are precision on 4+. If he's in a transport you can pop it first with the meltas or the Havoc lascannons. If this doesn't work you drop in the leviathan and should be able to kill everything your opponent brings at 2k that has survived the first turn shooting from the kill teams. Seekers are there to kill everything else and are pretty annoying with their 2" extra distance for reactions and charging. Vigilators pin units as previously said or can also help with enery WL.

 

This list has a big drawback in that it hasn't got any line units. You have to go for the fast WL kill to make it work, but i think it's also a fluffy trade-off to it. For 3k I would probably ally in some Solar Aux for lots of cheap line with high LD to go for objectives. 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice list! But consider switching out the Havocs to two boxdreads with Gravis lascannons on both arms, those will cost 165p each, 330p for both which is almost equivalent as a full 10 man havoc lascannon team. From both dreads you have 8 lascannon shots at BS5. Statistically you will hit with 7 shots, but with a 6" move, which open up for better options in terms of target selection. These shots coming from T6 2+ 5++ dreadnoughts with Ld9 for approximately same amount of points.

 

This also opens up your rewards or treachery to other units if playing above 2k points, I recommend a close combat oriented units such as gal vorbak or suzerains (have innate Line rule) since your only close combat competent unit is the leviathan.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Imren

[Brother Sutek]

I can also recommend boxdreads with Lascannons. I usually have at least one in my Death Guard list and they are surprisingly resistant. 

 

[2gud2bbad]

1 hour ago, Imren said:

 

 

Nice list! But consider switching out the Havocs to two boxdreads with Gravis lascannons on both arms, those will cost 165p each, 330p for both which is almost equivalent as a full 10 man havoc lascannon team. From both dreads you have 8 lascannon shots at BS5. Statistically you will hit with 7 shots, but with a 6" move, which open up for better options in terms of target selection. These shots coming from T6 2+ 5++ dreadnoughts with Ld9 for approximately same amount of points.

 

This also opens up your rewards or treachery to other units if playing above 2k points, I recommend a close combat oriented units such as gal vorbak or suzerains (have innate Line rule) since your only close combat competent unit is the leviathan.

 

 

 

 

 

hehe, that’s exactly what I had before. My issue was that I didn’t know where to put my delegatus. Having him with the havocs at least gives him ablative wounds and charge protection with overwatching LC. But I agree with you, in a vacuum double rifle dreads are excellent value in any list from +2k. Not only what you mentioned put also the ability to split fire between the dreads avoids overkill on softer targets. 
 

My issue with rewards in HHL is that most melee units need a transport to get them into close combat which is prohibited in HHL. Mor Deythan would be an excellent fit fluff and rule wise but they don’t get infiltrate sadly. You could take a terminator squad and deep strike it with your delegatus, but it’s quite the points sink and the warmonger special rule sucks. If you guys have some good ideas to make a meele rewards unit work, let me know

[Imren]

10 Gal Vorbak footslogging barely need transport they move 8", they can take alot of beating, being T5 and feel no paint. So they will make it across the midfield into close combat in two turns even if you don't infiltrate or deep strike them, combined with the redeployment given by master of lies you can minimize the distance across midfield to enemy unit in their deployment zone. Together with the Leviathan they will attract and soak up alot of enemy shots giving your HH teams some breathing room and do their job. The box dreads open up the transports for the Gal Vorbak to munch on the close combat units inside. For versatility you can give the GV squad powerfists and meltaguns so they can deal with vehicles/dreadnoughts themselves.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Imren

[Cleon]

13 hours ago, Imren said:

10 Gal Vorbak footslogging barely need transport they move 8", they can take alot of beating, being T5 and feel no paint. 

 

I realize this is off topic, but curse you, that typo made me almost choke on my sandwich...

[RoadRunna]

The AL Sniper is revealed:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/12/heresy-thursday-the-alpha-legions-best-assassin-is-deception-made-manifest/

 

What a great model

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, RoadRunna said:

The AL Sniper is revealed:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/12/heresy-thursday-the-alpha-legions-best-assassin-is-deception-made-manifest/

 

What a great model

Absolutely agree. Wonderful 

[LameBeard]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:30 PM, 2gud2bbad said:

My issue with rewards in HHL is that most melee units need a transport to get them into close combat which is prohibited in HHL. Mor Deythan would be an excellent fit fluff and rule wise but they don’t get infiltrate sadly. You could take a terminator squad and deep strike it with your delegatus, but it’s quite the points sink and the warmonger special rule sucks. If you guys have some good ideas to make a meele rewards unit work, let me know

Some terminators have Deep Strike on their own - Deliverers worth a try? 

[2gud2bbad]

11 hours ago, LameBeard said:

Some terminators have Deep Strike on their own - Deliverers worth a try? 

 

Correct, but where do i stick my delegatus then?

[LameBeard]

26 minutes ago, 2gud2bbad said:

 

Correct, but where do i stick my delegatus then?

Yeah sorry that occured to me only after I posted - we need a non-infiltrating, non-deep striking unit, right? Although call me a heretic, I am not above having characters going round on their own. I see it as particular egregious cowardice or bravery, depending on what you do with them.

[2gud2bbad]

On 1/13/2023 at 4:35 AM, RoadRunna said:

The AL Sniper is revealed:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/12/heresy-thursday-the-alpha-legions-best-assassin-is-deception-made-manifest/

 

What a great model

 

POV: Last thing your Squad Sergeant with his aRtiFiCeR aRmOuR sees before his lights go out

 

Great Model, will use him as Exodus himself or vigilator or even as my delegatus.

 

9 hours ago, LameBeard said:

Yeah sorry that occured to me only after I posted - we need a non-infiltrating, non-deep striking unit, right? Although call me a heretic, I am not above having characters going round on their own. I see it as particular egregious cowardice or bravery, depending on what you do with them.

 

and also something that doesn't need a transport. Going by these 3 criteria only something in the realm of HSS/Havocs/Sun Killers works. They can be particularily good if you reposition them so that if your opponent brings HSS that he has to move to shoot you T1 with the AL Legion Rule while you're in range T1.

 

Only other thing is deepstriking him in a pod or storm eagle, neither of which are particularily great in 2. E

 

Having him go alone obviously works, but then he'll get instafarmed for WL Kill...

 

 

[LameBeard]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:01 AM, 2gud2bbad said:

 

and also something that doesn't need a transport. Going by these 3 criteria only something in the realm of HSS/Havocs/Sun Killers works. They can be particularily good if you reposition them so that if your opponent brings HSS that he has to move to shoot you T1 with the AL Legion Rule while you're in range T1.

 

Only other thing is deepstriking him in a pod or storm eagle, neither of which are particularily great in 2. E

 

Having him go alone obviously works, but then he'll get instafarmed for WL Kill...

 

 

So the Delegatus is there to survive.  The vigilators are there to provide pinning.

 

Here’s a couple of ideas:

1) drop one vigilator for a recon squad with as many nemesis bolters and bodies as can be afforded. Delegatus gets nemesis too - they hang out at the back, providing wounds for him, pinning and line on an objective. Still not tough enough?

 

2) scrape points for a bunker and let Delegatus sit alone in it. Yes I checked, doesn’t seem to be fortifications limitation in HHL. Now you have challenged the opponent - have they brought something that will crack it? It doesn’t really matter if he dies eventually if you forced your opponent to over-commit. I think it’s even quite fluffy to have your Warlord pull the strings from the Forward Command Centre.

[Descho]

Hello, a friend of mine wants to participate in a HH event later this year and I want to start an Alpha Legion Army for this. My idea is a bunch of headhunters, recon squads and seekers with the (not so now) new MK VI Marines. I think they fit the Alpha Legion image very well. But do any of you have tips for combimeltas for the headhunters or done a conversion for them? With both hands on the weapon now, the old combimeltas don't fit without some work.

[Xenith]

Use the mark 4 arms on the mk6 bodies, works a treat! 

[9x19 Parabellum]

So I am really bumming on Headhunters right now.  I have 2 units of 10 now, which I've played in 3 games. My thinking on them is as follows:

-you need to infiltrate them to make the best use of them as they really need to be in double tap range in order to do their thing.

-infiltrating is inherently risky as you don't know who will go first, which means your warlord needs to be master of lies to protect them (redeploy) if you don't go first.

-if you lose roll off, redeploy them back, otherwise they will get shot up/charged turn 1.

 

Now, so far, I've lost the roll off in all 3 games I've used them with. Bad luck, I suppose, but it really stinks to have a unit that's only going to do anything in 50% of your games.

So, assuming you lose the roll off and have to redeploy them, where do you put them? If you deploy them too defensively they will literally do nothing all game, as their 18" guns are aids.  Sure they'll be protected, but that's not a good use of a 250 pt. unit.

 

Aside from all that...they are just this unit loaded up with all kinds of cute rules and wargear that just doesn't seem to do much.  Power Daggers are cute, but if you're not rolling 5's to wound, which I can't do, they are wasted.  Your WS4 and 1 attack means they aren't a close combat unit.  The incredibly short 18" range means they have to get danger close to be a shooting unit.  They are too expensive to be a suicide unit for that. 

 

Multimelta and meltabombs make them a viable tank hunting unit...if again you get to go first. Lose the roll-off and it's back to safety redeploy which means your short range guns will be sitting around for 2 rounds before they can do something meangingful.

 

So yeah....my 3 games with them so far I'm really just bumming on them.  Anybody had good luck with them?

 

[Slips]

Consider swapping/proxying their Banestrike Bolters to Combi-Grenade Launchers since that swap, iirc, is free and it'd give you a 24" S5 shot OR more sources of pinning via the frag grenade. Pinning is more or less the name of the game these days since it shuts down so much.

 

While the multimelta is great at popping tanks, dont forget its also on a relentless precision shot 4+ unit so its effectively a "Delete this one specific model of a unit" gun half the time. Great for taking out special weapons, sergeants, apothecaries and other such attached characters who would really hate to eat an S8 Ap1 shot (or two) to the face.

 

Similarly, HH work better as 5man squads since you can only ever take 1 multimelta. So 2x 5mans = 2 Multimeltas instead of 1x 10man = 1 multimelta

Edited March 24, 2023 by Slips

[Brother Sutek]

Thank you Slips! More food for thought for my own Headhunter Cadre. Just finished painted four squads of five and will have to consider proxies for the grenade launchers. Between the frag grenades and the recons with nemesis bolters I should be able to shut down a few reactions. 

[Gorgoff]

What would you folks put in a Storm Eagle? Yes, I know that flyers having a hard time at the moment but anyway.

Thought about 20 despoilers although they could charge turn 3 only in a best case scenario but I thought it will look so cool.

But I take any ideas y'all have.

[Xenith]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:47 AM, 9x19 Parabellum said:

Headhunters...infiltrating is inherently risky as you don't know who will go first

 

In the same boat really, I don't fid them to be really great at anything, and even with the expensive 5x melta loudout, the unit hits 165pts for 5 3+ wounds, which is bad value. 

 

Thankfully in heresy you generally do know if you'll be going first (the first to deploy the army, the attacker), 83% of the time so you can place the headhunters accordingly, and if you're going second you can place them a bit further back to maybe threaten anything that moves aggressively into the midfield in the early game. Don't forget that they also have scout so they can get a free move before the game starts, and I'm a fan of a rhino for them to increase that to a 12" move, though it takes the unit to 200pts. 

 

 

[Gorgoff]

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

What would you folks put in a Storm Eagle? Yes, I know that flyers having a hard time at the moment but anyway.

Thought about 20 despoilers although they could charge turn 3 only in a best case scenario but I thought it will look so cool.

But I take any ideas y'all have.

I'd add an Apothecary and a Legion Champion as well because the AL power armor models looks so dope. Although a Chaplain could be great as well. I have the Praetor set here and the dude in power armor leans on his blade which makes his pose so calculated and level headed. Would fit as well.

But now come on guys.

Give me more ideas.

 

[Gorgoff]

Since nobody seems to habe an opinion about Storm Eagles could someone at least explain the AL transfer sheet? What is what and all that?