Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[WrathOfTheLion]

53 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

No clue what their current rules are, but I’m just saying that upgrading chaos marines to equal primaris marines is just super easy.

much easier than the other way around any way.

Yeah, they've already done that and more. The Chaos Marine baseline is already actually even better than baseline Primaris. Same wounds, all that stuff, even more attacks.

 

I get your point though and I totally agree. They did exactly what you said, it's just already done.

Edited December 26, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Nephaston]

For the starter set;If it's anything like the start of 9th then Leviathan will be the Indomitus equivalent and painted as otherwise generic blood angels vs leviathan tyranids. This set will be followed by 10th's version of the recruit, elite, and command edition of the starter sets featuring generic ultramarines vs leviathan. That way both rumours would be sufficiently covered.

 

Regarding termies, I already joked about rediscovering the breastplate stretcher, but in all actuality beyond Cawls ego/drive to improve and guillimans orders to stock up, there is precisely zero reason primaris can't use the old stuff. On average one foot taller is not that much, and if anything primaris are just more uniform in their size, while firstborn varied wildly in fluff with absolute units like Moloch, Tyberos, and that one fat space wolf even surpassing primaris in size (the latter probably only in circumference tbh) So there is no reason old stuff can't be used.

All in all we have to wait and see if Terminators get the primaris keyword or a handwavey answer why this is either a mixed unit or a solely firstborn one.

 

Regarding unit parity I would actually argue that chaos marines are and should be as far removed from baseline marines as primaris are so at least crunch wise we are kind of there.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Best solution would just be to make new improved termies. Refreshed kit, but still keeping with the classic design, still clearly recognisable as terminators. Better proportions and scale.

 

Then let them take the primaris keyword as an optional upgrade. That way they can fit in either army, go in either kind of transport.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to see them just remove the Primaris keyword completely and just get on with Space Marines being Space Marines.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Too soon still im afraid

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

46 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd like to see them just remove the Primaris keyword completely and just get on with Space Marines being Space Marines.

It’s all good. Just look at the sweet new mini DA are getting for Azreal.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

15 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Only Chaos gets the tusks and they rock.

 

Can't really argue with that lol.

 

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd like to see them just remove the Primaris keyword completely and just get on with Space Marines being Space Marines.

 

I agree I don't think the keyword adds much besides some needless gate keeping. If terminators are getting rescaled and being put in the next edition's starter there won't be a split codex, so you may as well streamline it. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Players that like to go full Primaris would prolly disagree.

[Blindhamster]

If they get rid of primaris keyword, they’ll probably have to buff primaris units, right now quite a few only really have the “better” stratagem support going for them

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It really doesn’t make sense and I don’t see geedub reversing it.

[Captain Idaho]

48 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

If they get rid of primaris keyword, they’ll probably have to buff primaris units, right now quite a few only really have the “better” stratagem support going for them

 

Well if we're going down that root of next edition Codex books we need to see scaling back of Strategums and any boosts added to the units.

 

The changes to CPs hurt Primaris a bunch as well.

 

So I agree. 

[Blindhamster]

But yeah, if they could work out a neat way to merge the two into one line again I think that would be good

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How would you retcon the lore though ?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

2 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Players that like to go full Primaris would prolly disagree.

 

I play pure Primaris, and if I'm being honest being able to put eradicators in a drop pod would be pretty sweet.  Aggressors in a land raider redeemer would be pretty cool as well (though substantially worse lol).

 

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

If they get rid of primaris keyword, they’ll probably have to buff primaris units, right now quite a few only really have the “better” stratagem support going for them

 

Yes, they would have to buff a lot of units and that is a great thing for the range. The amount of bad Primaris units is depressing, and the "better" stratagem support doesn't do enough to make a lot of them viable. I also think the sheer amount of stratagems that marines have access to provides roadblocks because they're worried about certain fractions breaking things like aggressors. 

 

28 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

How would you retcon the lore though ?

 

Why would you have to retcon the lore? As far as using transports we have lore examples, and as far as the primaris being tougher it's not like the current rules do a great job of it. Transhuman is great but what about the other primaris units being shot at?

[Karhedron]

34 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

How would you retcon the lore though ?

 

The lore wouldn't need retconning at all, it would still explain the cosmetic differences. But FB have already gained the second wound so the difference between them and Primaris on the tabletop has narrowed significantly. Just create an entry for a Troop choice that is flexible enough to represent an Intercessor squad or an old-school Tactical squad.

 

For example: 1 Sergeant + 4-9 Marines.

Sergeant can take power sword, power fist or Thunder Hammer.

If squad numbers 5 - 9 Marines you can take 1 special weapon, plasma gun, flamer, melta or auxiliary grenade launcher.

If squad numbers 10 you can take a second special weapon or a heavy weapon as well

 

I am sure similar creative solutions can be found for other units too.

[Marshal Reinhard]

54 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

How would you retcon the lore though ?

No need to retcon, advance it. Make everyone primaris. Even the ones using older armor marks. Everyone is upgraded, the word loses its meaning. Everyone gets the better scale, that OG marines are tiny are more due to the historic baggage of the models.

 

(Yeah ok, so lore saying primaris marines a much Mchugelarger than OG reens would have to go, modest sizeincrease could work.)

[Karhedron]

18 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Rules-wise? Without some substantial change, I don't know if they'll need to. I'd go so far as to say that the Chaos Termies right now are better than every single unit in the entire SM codex, they're that good.

 

This is the puzzling thing. Stats-wise they are pretty much the same as Loyalist ones (they get an extra attack in place of shock assault which is a slight improvement but not massive). So why are they better? Is it the combination of Marks and codex-specific buffs they can take?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think there’d be considerable pushback if geedub was like “Okay all SM units are Primaris now. All this just to make a few happy that begrudge Primaris… it’s not a good business model.

Edited December 26, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[jaxom]

Okay, here's the size comparison:

 

Some improvements on proportions, a little more height, wouldn't go astray.

 

Here's a terminator comparison I found from https://imgur.com/gallery/9n15B11 which has an amazing variety of model scale comparisons (no Mk6 as it's from 2021).

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

14 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I think there’d be considerable pushback if geedub was like “Okay SM units are Primaris now. All this just to make some happy that begrudge Primaris… it’s not a good business model.

 

1. A keyword is really slight change, we're basically talking about two stratagems, and unlocking transports. Maybe even less than that if they get rid of stratagems in 10th which is possible. 

 

2. GW deserves a lot of pushback for how bad a lot of Primaris units are. I think that keyword contributes to it, because you have to consider transhuman when you're balancing units. I'd rather see it gone, and hopefully have rules added to datasheets. 

[Nephaston]

This is the kind of dilemma GW created entirely themselves, typical "want to eat your cake and have it too", creating a second separate line of marines while also keeping the old one while writing several books highlighting and working around their dual dynamic instead of just making new minis at the better scale.

You even could have introduced the new squad dynamics, because people would have inevitably converted their stuff if they wanted to.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I think there’d be considerable pushback if geedub was like “Okay all SM units are Primaris now. All this just to make a few happy that begrudge Primaris… it’s not a good business model.

 

"Primaris" is almost meaningless already, in the land of "60% of the time, the Rubicon works every time."

 

The main tabletop difference is whether your models are transhuman enough to make your opponent wound on 4+, or if your models bump their heads trying to get into a Land Raider. Transhuman-like rules are a dime a dozen these days, and the transport thing is a silly restriction that very few people genuinely enjoy.

 

It is less a question of pleasing the few who begrudge Primaris and more a question of what is even the point of Primaris anymore.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

"Primaris" is almost meaningless already, in the land of "60% of the time, the Rubicon works every time."

 

The main tabletop difference is whether your models are transhuman enough to make your opponent wound on 4+, or if your models bump their heads trying to get into a Land Raider. Transhuman-like rules are a dime a dozen these days, and the transport thing is a silly restriction that very few people genuinely enjoy.

 

It is less a question of pleasing the few who begrudge Primaris and more a question of what is even the point of Primaris anymore.

 
lit might be meaningless to you but that’s you and obviously geedub thinks different. Take that chip off bro and sit a spell.

[Marshal Reinhard]

To be clear, I only want Primaris to go away in the same breath as I want classic marines to go away. I want everyone to be upgraded, everyone to be primaris, for the word to lose its meaning (other than a thing that happened in the past, IE. robot girlyman came back, primaris was introduced, geneseeds were invigorated and new-old weapons designs were introduced and robby repenned /amended the codex) and free to use old & new gear. Everyone gets good scaled kits, everyone can use everything etc, we just move the *expletive* on.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Marshal Reinhard

[Bryan Blaire]

Agreed Marshal Reinhard - things will be able to stabilize and everyone “happy” or at least tolerating when Primaris is no longer a “thing” and all Marines are just Marines again and we can reorganize existing collections to use with the rules or use new upscaled models as personal choice dictates.