Open submissions 2023

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Thanks for sharing, some great pearls of wisdom there. 

[Denny]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:12 PM, Wrath of Bruinen said:

Thanks for sharing, some great pearls of wisdom there. 

No worries. Micheal did an awesome job collating the (sometimes conflicting!) advice.

 

If anyone has any further questions I’ll try and answer them in this thread. Just bare in mind it’s only my experience and I am far from infallible.
 

(Incidentally I’m the Denny Flowers from article, though I appreciate that’s hard to prove online!)

Edited February 17, 2023 by Denny

[Lysimachus]

Just read through the second and third parts, very helpful stuff there!

 

@Denny many thanks to you, Michael and the other authors for taking the time to help the rest of us!

 

I posted my Sub on the first day, so I must admit I'm most curious about what is happening now.

 

Do BL read through them as they come in? Or ignore everything until Feb 11th and then start working through them? Who reads it - do BL have a whole team of editors, or do they get help from the current authors? How long does it take to read the thousands of subs? How quickly did you hear back that they were interested in your story? I've heard someone say about Rounds within the submission process (and I'm now picturing X-factor style 'Judges' Houses' ). If so, how many Rounds did you have to go through?

 

 

Sorry, that's a lot of questions. 

 

(but I'm sure I'll think of more...)

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Lysimachus

[Denny]

Hey!

 

I don’t know *exactly* what happens; I was too nervous to ask the editor at the time. However I can go through the process as I understood it at the time. It may well have changed since then.

 

When I submitted there was one editor looking at it all, and they waited until all stories were received. I would imagine a couple more editors would be included now. I actually submitted two stories in 2018. One was rejected pretty quickly (in hindsight, it was way too out there). Maybe a month or two? The story that was accepted took months (six maybe?)

 

The year before I submitted a story that was rejected almost instantly (as in, a few days). Although nominally a 40K story, I had set it on Necromunda just because I love the setting. This was before Underhive was released, so I think it was rejected on the basis of ‘No Necromunda stories until we release the new game!’.

 

So, I’d *guess* the following:

 

1) Once the deadline passes all stories will be reviewed. The first round will eliminate any that did not meet the criteria, or fail on a pretty basic level (massive typos, not understanding the IP, including sexually explicit material etc)

 

2) From then on it will be a series of eliminations until they have the number they want. This will be mainly on the quality of the submission, but there might be a few other factors at work (a variety of chapters/stories; if 50% of people have submitted Flesh Tearer vampire stories then those people are going to find it harder!). Following this prospective authors will be contacted; I assume not all of them make it past the next stage. In my case they wanted some serious rewrites of the plot, but the quality of writing was enough to get me through. If they hadn’t liked the new story that might have been it for me.

 

No BL authors are involved in any of this as far as I am aware (unless they are also editors)

 

So, if it’s good news, it might take a while. If it’s bad news you’ll hear sooner!

[System Sound]

So, no pressure?

 

Thanks for the writte up! Always interesting to hear about the process behind the curtain.

[Kelborn]

7 hours ago, Denny said:

Hey!

 

I don’t know *exactly* what happens; I was too nervous to ask the editor at the time. However I can go through the process as I understood it at the time. It may well have changed since then.

 

When I submitted there was one editor looking at it all, and they waited until all stories were received. I would imagine a couple more editors would be included now. I actually submitted two stories in 2018. One was rejected pretty quickly (in hindsight, it was way too out there). Maybe a month or two? The story that was accepted took months (six maybe?)

 

The year before I submitted a story that was rejected almost instantly (as in, a few days). Although nominally a 40K story, I had set it on Necromunda just because I love the setting. This was before Underhive was released, so I think it was rejected on the basis of ‘No Necromunda stories until we release the new game!’.

 

So, I’d *guess* the following:

 

1) Once the deadline passes all stories will be reviewed. The first round will eliminate any that did not meet the criteria, or fail on a pretty basic level (massive typos, not understanding the IP, including sexually explicit material etc)

 

2) From then on it will be a series of eliminations until they have the number they want. This will be mainly on the quality of the submission, but there might be a few other factors at work (a variety of chapters/stories; if 50% of people have submitted Flesh Tearer vampire stories then those people are going to find it harder!). Following this prospective authors will be contacted; I assume not all of them make it past the next stage. In my case they wanted some serious rewrites of the plot, but the quality of writing was enough to get me through. If they hadn’t liked the new story that might have been it for me.

 

No BL authors are involved in any of this as far as I am aware (unless they are also editors)

 

So, if it’s good news, it might take a while. If it’s bad news you’ll hear sooner!

Thank you very much for your input here as well as in the interview with Michael! It is very appreciated and feels good when a fellow frater there to give some advice. :)

 

It was a very interesting read and I'll defo come back to it when reviewing my submission.

 

As they're specifically mentioned action scenes, I'd wager that focusing on that is the way to go and leave "quiet" character scenes for the overall story, eh?

 

Got a scene written but I'm unsure if it's too much talk and not a detailed enough action scene to hit the terms & missing the point by having about 50% from Ork pov. 

[Denny]

On 1/18/2023 at 5:00 PM, Kelborn said:

As they're specifically mentioned action scenes, I'd wager that focusing on that is the way to go and leave "quiet" character scenes for the overall story, eh?

 

Got a scene written but I'm unsure if it's too much talk and not a detailed enough action scene to hit the terms & missing the point by having about 50% from Ork pov. 

 

I can only really answer from my POV. Doesn’t make it right!
 

If I was submitting I would be selecting the best action scene from my story. That could be a duel, high octane chase, full on warfare or whatever.
 

It doesn’t have to be 100% action all the time, but by the end of the scene I’d want a critical reader to think ‘OK, this person can write action’ (specifically Space Marine action).

 

My best action scene might not be my best overall scene (it probably wouldn’t be; I think my dialogue heavy character moments are better), but I’d still go with the action scene.

 

I’m not sure whether an ork perspective would be an issue or not; it might come down to the execution. 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Denny

[System Sound]

12 hours ago, Denny said:

 In my case they wanted some serious rewrites of the plot, but the quality of writing was enough to get me through. If they hadn’t liked the new story that might have been it for me.

I'm guessing the story that you submitted, did get published? I saw some people being confused about that. If your submission would be published or not. But it's probably down the the quality?

[wecanhaveallthree]

Even if Denny didn't have the inside track, I'd echo the exact same advice. You're writing tie-in fiction for an action-heavy property with the most action-heavy faction in a submissions call that's explicitly set within the Era Indomitus, e.g., an Imperium-wide mobilisation (in the grim darkness of the far future, there is even more war!). Showing the editors that you 'get' the setting and you can write gripping action is a great way to make it through the slush pile, because it puts you head and shoulders above what will no doubt be a lot of less-focused pitches. 500 words is a showcase, your best attributes forward. 

 

It also, for my taste, means you can write tension. In crude terms, to steal from wise Pratchett: cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum. Editors are human, too, and the consistent advice you'll see given - from the WarCom article, to Track of Words, to authors, to your friend down the street - is that the best thing you can do is make them want to read more. 

 

Put those two elements together. Show the editors you know how to write for Warhammer and that you know how to bait the hook, and I think you'll be well on your way.

[Denny]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:28 PM, System Sound said:

I'm guessing the story that you submitted, did get published? I saw some people being confused about that. If your submission would be published or not. But it's probably down the the quality?

Yes. But it underwent extensive changes. So I had *a* story published, which had about 50% in common with the original pitch. One of the two key characters was removed, and since my extract heavily featured that character, that whole scene vanished too.

 

So I guess my point is merely that (in my own subjective experience) you can get through the first stage even if your initial story idea isn’t quite what they want, provided you have met the criteria. My story became Hand of Harrow, which was published in Inferno. It was well received enough that I was invited to pick up the characters for a novella (Low Lives), which led to more shorts and eventually a novel (Fire Made Flesh). 

 

I assume this round will lead to published stories in the same way (though I confess I have not read the small print). What format it takes I didn’t know (an Inferno based SM anthology would be my guess). 
 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Denny

[Denny]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Even if Denny didn't have the inside track, I'd echo the exact same advice. You're writing tie-in fiction for an action-heavy property with the most action-heavy faction in a submissions call that's explicitly set within the Era Indomitus, e.g., an Imperium-wide mobilisation (in the grim darkness of the far future, there is even more war!). Showing the editors that you 'get' the setting and you can write gripping action is a great way to make it through the slush pile, because it puts you head and shoulders above what will no doubt be a lot of less-focused pitches. 500 words is a showcase, your best attributes forward. 

 

It also, for my taste, means you can write tension. In crude terms, to steal from wise Pratchett: cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum. Editors are human, too, and the consistent advice you'll see given - from the WarCom article, to Track of Words, to authors, to your friend down the street - is that the best thing you can do is make them want to read more. 

 

Put those two elements together. Show the editors you know how to write for Warhammer and that you know how to bait the hook, and I think you'll be well on your way.

Yeah, pretty much this (IMO; I keep saying this because I really don’t know for sure!).

 

From an editor’s POV the best freelancers are not only talented but can be trusted to understand what they have been asked to do and execute it. So make sure you have shown that. (Getting them gripped is a nice goal too!)

Edited January 19, 2023 by Denny

[grailkeeper]

My first draft is about 60-70% done and I have the 500 word extract ready to go. If I get rejected I think I'll post it on B&C just to see what people think and look for feedback.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I gotta know: are people actually writing 10,000 words and then picking 500 out, or writing tailored extracts? I've seen a few posts like grailkeeper's around, and it seems somewhat wasteful to do the former - but then again, I'm on that submissions grind and perpetually lazy. 

[System Sound]

8 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I gotta know: are people actually writing 10,000 words and then picking 500 out, or writing tailored extracts? I've seen a few posts like grailkeeper's around, and it seems somewhat wasteful to do the former - but then again, I'm on that submissions grind and perpetually lazy. 

I have written around 1.5k words and another 1-2k in notes and ideas. But I just picked what sounded the best and trimmed it a bit to fit 500 limit.

[Kelborn]

3 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I gotta know: are people actually writing 10,000 words and then picking 500 out, or writing tailored extracts? I've seen a few posts like grailkeeper's around, and it seems somewhat wasteful to do the former - but then again, I'm on that submissions grind and perpetually lazy. 

 

I'm going to get the excerpt and summary done first while outlying the overall story.

After submitting, I'll come back to wrote the rest of the story. Gonna follow Grailkeeper and post it here if it's getting rejected.

 

@Denny: 

Off topic, but where can I petition a Votann story? There's still none on the horizon. ;)

[Mazer Rackham]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I gotta know: are people actually writing 10,000 words and then picking 500 out... 

 

Yes, full 10k, then I picked the scene. I think it makes the selection more organic. It does massively depend on how you work, though - and how much time you have available...

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mazer Rackham
Clarity.

[Lysimachus]

Bit of both for me. I loosely planned the story, then just started writing. I wrote the opening scene, which was straight into the action, and it got to 500 words (ish) so I figured I could work it as my extract.

 

I've now finished the story at 9955 words, so in the unlikely event I get an email, I can send off a first draft pretty much immediately, though I'd imagine it might well need an edit or two! 

 

 

@Denny Another question, it's a bit of a personal one so I won't be offended if you don't want to answer it! 

 

Without being specific, how does pay work for BL writers? Is it like being a freelance writer where you get paid a certain amount per word? Or a set fee for a short story/novella/novel? Or do they pay in grey plastic sprues? (I could probably work with that…  )

 

I assume that the more well known a writer is, the higher rate they'll pull (Abnett, ADB, etc), but is it in the range you'd expect for freelance writing in the UK? (ie. I've seen quotes of anywhere between £0.25-0.95 per word?)

 

Again, no offence taken if you'd rather not answer this one! 

 

[Denny]

2 hours ago, Kelborn said:

 

 

@Denny: 

Off topic, but where can I petition a Votann story? There's still none on the horizon. ;)

I honestly don’t know. But various Black Library Editors are on Twitter, so I suppose you could probably make a polite request to one of them. 
 

I know nothing. But I’d have to guess that there is something in the works, or if there isn’t then it because of some future plan or something. 
 

 

[Denny]

13 hours ago, Lysimachus said:

 

 

 

@Denny Another question, it's a bit of a personal one so I won't be offended if you don't want to answer it! 

 

Without being specific, how does pay work for BL writers? Is it like being a freelance writer where you get paid a certain amount per word? Or a set fee for a short story/novella/novel? Or do they pay in grey plastic sprues? (I could probably work with that…  )

 

I assume that the more well known a writer is, the higher rate they'll pull (Abnett, ADB, etc), but is it in the range you'd expect for freelance writing in the UK? (ie. I've seen quotes of anywhere between £0.25-0.95 per word?)

 

Again, no offence taken if you'd rather not answer this one! 

 

Sorry, thought I’d replied to this.

 

I don’t think I can discuss details, but I’m paid as a Freelancer. So each job has its own contract. It is based on word count, but effectively works out at a set fee prior to the work (and if I’m a few words short or over it doesn’t change my pay). There are also royalties depending on sales.

 

I also assume Dan is paid more (he should be!), but I have no idea what his contract is. I only know my own stuff. He might have multi-novel deals and all sorts for all I know. :)

 

As a general point, writers (freelance or otherwise) don’t tend to make a lot of money. I think what BL pay me is fair given my experience etc. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Denny

[Sanctimonius]

Just wanted to say I appreciate all the discussion on this thread and the feedback from someone who went through the process. I've submitted before - one story went onto the next round then they went quiet and never got back (so I assume after 5 years they're still considering, right?!), other times have been rejected pretty quickly. But those times I wrote the sample and never got around to finishing the stories themselves, or only did so much later.

 

This time the story came pretty quickly, so I get to select the sample from it. I'll probably take Denny's advice and focus on the action heavy part, rather than what I personally think is the best part. But either way, good luck to all and may your stories be selected!

[grailkeeper]

The constant writing advice I've received is that the best way to get good at writing is to write. Thats why I'm trying to write the full story. That and I might write a better bit than the initial extract. I have a few people looking over my extract and I'm waiting for them to get back to me before I submit it. 

 

I've written a few non-fiction books myself. I'm finding writing fiction a lot harder- I get a lot more embarrassed by poor quality prose than I do my other writing. FWIW on my non-fiction books I get 10% of all royalties and 6 copies of the book. Word count makes no difference, although my 60K books are a 10th the price of my 250K word book (Law books can be very expensive). Either way I get 10% but that 10% is more on a more expensive book. Obviously these arent for black library so different rules apply, but I mention it if its of any use to authors here. Writers can also get money when their books are lent out by libraries- I dont know what BL's attitude to that is. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Maybe it's just my perspective, then. I'm chucking submissions at a few places, along with Cold Open Stories or my own fanwank - I managed to turn out something like 35k~ words in the last three weeks on one story alone! I'm not saving myself for marriage, at any rate. It makes more sense to me to fine-tune your elevator pitch and write a tailored extract that gets you through the door then come at the next 'round' fresh to attack the next criteria on their merits rather than try and fit your existing work into those criteria. Murdering darlings tends to be the hard, and I think we're all guilty of hanging onto things we really should get rid of because a) we already did that work and b) nooo, my darlings!

 

If even an artiste like Denny had to do rewrites, us schlubs are in for the chop.

[Mazer Rackham]

I've been trying to respond to this for about  two  four hours.

 

The problem is, what I am writing comes across as a bit of lecture, and there's nothing I like more than a captive audience, and the sound of my own voice, so take from this what you will. For the record, I'm trying to help. You see, I'm at a crossroads myself, and thinking and saying these things may help me too. There may be rambling.

 

Take this with salt, or ignore it or print it out and set on fire, it's up to you. 

 

On 1/21/2023 at 2:52 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

Maybe it's just my perspective, then. I'm chucking submissions at a few places, along with Cold Open Stories or my own - I managed to turn out something like 35k~ words in the last three weeks on one story alone!

 

The way you work, is the way you work. There is no proscribed way in which to do things, but I'll touch on this more later. Your output is commendable, and you should plug away with any submissions possible. To echo @grailkeeper Ray Bradbury is quoted as saying: "Quantity breeds quality". Write often, write anything, write as much as you can, even if it's just a scene in your head.

 

On 1/21/2023 at 2:52 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

It makes more sense to me to fine-tune your elevator pitch and write a tailored extract that gets you through the door then come at the next 'round' fresh to attack the next criteria on their merits rather than try and fit your existing work into those criteria.

 

And that is fair comment, and absolutely you should fine-tune your elevator pitch until the pips squeak, and it's tight and slick. BL offers 100 Words, and if you can't fit your plot and beats into that, your story is too complicated. This is the first test of the writers they seek. Can you ask and answer a narrative question in 100 words? If the answer is yes, you understand your task, and the size and scope of it. It's a great tool for outlining your plot.

 

It also tells them how big your submission is going to be.

 

I write the full MS because I come at this with an indie publishing mindset, where you have everything ready to go; and it's always go. We also have to remember that this is not a job interview, but an audition, and it's free critical feedback - any writer who applies is testing their mettle. How good is this? How close am I to best? How high must I pile the corpses of my friends and enemies to succeed in my glorious ascension!? - er...sorry, got off track there.

 

*Ahem*

 

There are lots of good reasons for both approaches, and they all boil down to time. I prefer to front-load.

 

On 1/21/2023 at 2:52 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

Murdering darlings tends to be hard, and I think we're all guilty of hanging onto things we really should get rid of because a) we already did that work and b) nooo, my darlings!

 

Again, fair comment, and I absolutely agree. On one hand, a writer who does not love his work is not going to sell it to someone who's never read it. On the other, long-form poetic doggerel is worth framing and not much else.

 

You have to show your flair, but also your ability to be concise. There's a balance to be had in all things. 

 

On 1/21/2023 at 2:52 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

If even an artiste like Denny had to do rewrites, us schlubs are in for the chop.

 

Poppycock! 

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am not trying to demean or diminish @Denny's very valuable advice, help or excellent work in any way. (You see what I mean about first drafts?)

 

When you write, you're doing re-writes. End of. If you're not prepared to do that, don't sign up. That's the hard truth right there. If you ever send anything to a Professional Editor, and it's bad, they will tear your arse off. If they're good at their job, they'll lead you with encouragement too. You can either sulk about it, or grow the killing edge that makes good enough reading to make a living from it.

 

Nothing, absolutely nothing anyone writes is perfect the first time. Anyone who tells you that is talking utter cobblers. I think it was Ernest Hemingway who said: "The first draft of anything is ."

 

When you submit work for a client like this (Merc-work) you will be rewriting, because they're giving you the story, you're just filling the spec. Ask James Patterson about that. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Mazer Rackham

[wecanhaveallthree]

Not a lecture at all - we all have our own ways of doing things, and we all have different insights as to where we're at. Always happy to have a chat about the ins-and-outs, Like you say, just getting it out on paper can help a lot to examine and crystalize our own points of view. 

[grailkeeper]

Do you think it would be a problem if we posted our 100 word synopsis here? I know they dont want any part of the story itself posted online but feedback on the synopsis might help us do the best job possible.