Horus Heresy Siege of Cthonia

[SkimaskMohawk]

27 minutes ago, Squark said:

Combat shields have built in bolt pistols. Unless chainaxes are specialist weapons, the inductii get the paired weapon bonus.

 

They don't, though they used to way back in 4th edition. 

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

As an EC player, the prospect of a unit with all Sabres that aren't Palatines could be fun.

 

For those running the numbers and points etc, ultimately there's more choices and for narrative gaming it's not a bad thing..For tournaments it's already clear what's "best'. Additional flavour for those of us that don't care for tournaments or "best" isn't a bad thing.

Yeah, although trying to figure out how to actually build a decent looking EC Inductii squad from actual GW bits seems painful AND expensive, might be a unit that forces me 3rd party/3d print if GW can't get their melee troops act together.

[01RTB01]

26 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Yeah, although trying to figure out how to actually build a decent looking EC Inductii squad from actual GW bits seems painful AND expensive, might be a unit that forces me 3rd party/3d print if GW can't get their melee troops act together.

I'd already reached that point. I picked up mk vi marines and a friend printed the jump packs, pistols and cc weapons. I wasn't going to wait for GW to get their act together. I've got 30 assault marines and 20 breachers now. 

 

When a box of marines is $100 and cc equipment is $124 to outfit them then they can jog on. I don't feel bad as I've got around 10,000 or so points of EC. Had they dropped assault marines I'd have bought from GW. 

 

Waiting 18 months for a base troops choice isn't acceptable really.

 

That all said, I'll be interested to pick the book up and have a read.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

They don't, though they used to way back in 4th edition. 

The pistol with the shield is just because miniatures usually have a pistol plus a close combat weapon. And you aren't going to put the shield in the ccw's hand!. What is true is, that, some models of shields in W40K/W30K have adapted ammo magazines for example in pistols to have more ammo at the same time the user wears a shield (Ultramarines for example)

A shield can be attached to the wearer's arm, wrist, hold with the hand using a handle or a mixture of both as the simplest system of hold it. In W40K and W30K most of the smaller shields are attached to the arm, so, you can hold and use a pistol or another small hand weapon.

 

So in the case of Despoilers, they can use at the same time combat shield, ccw and a pistol.

Edited May 21, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[OttoVonAwesome]

5 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

I'd already reached that point. I picked up mk vi marines and a friend printed the jump packs, pistols and cc weapons. I wasn't going to wait for GW to get their act together. I've got 30 assault marines and 20 breachers now. 

 

When a box of marines is $100 and cc equipment is $124 to outfit them then they can jog on. I don't feel bad as I've got around 10,000 or so points of EC. Had they dropped assault marines I'd have bought from GW. 

 

Waiting 18 months for a base troops choice isn't acceptable really.

 

That all said, I'll be interested to pick the book up and have a read.

You should never feel bad about customizing your models. A 3d printed conversion is no different to a scratchbuild or a kit bash or any other type of conversion. These are your models that you paid for and GW doesn't have any right to tell you what to do with them and if someone else can provide you what you need but for cheaper or faster well then that's just capitalism at work and they need to up thier game and compete better.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It's definitely a wrench in making Inductii for Legions that use despoilers as the basis.

 

I'll go ahead and make some Dark Angels ones, but hold off on any Word Bearers Inductii. The WB ones have some awesome potential with the half possessed CSM bits from the Kill Team Legionaries box, though. I may still make them out of CSM arms, now that I ponder it.

 

It certainly matches the Word Bearers style for them to be going a bit more CSM on their inductii that can spontaneously mutate.

Edited May 21, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion
Added last paragraph

[SalamandersBro]

That's interesting the Inductii's don't have any stat that is less than a normal base marine. We don't know points yet?

 

I need to make some despoiler squads for my Salamanders.

[Hfran Morkai]

Points from the sounds of it are the base squad points for the relevant template, be it Tactical or Despoiler.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

The pistol with the shield is just because miniatures usually have a pistol plus a close combat weapon. And you aren't going to put the shield in the ccw's hand!. What is true is, that, some models of shields in W40K/W30K have adapted ammo magazines for example in pistols to have more ammo at the same time the user wears a shield (Ultramarines for example)

A shield can be attached to the wearer's arm, wrist, hold with the hand using a handle or a mixture of both as the simplest system of hold it. In W40K and W30K most of the smaller shields are attached to the arm, so, you can hold and use a pistol or another small hand weapon.

 

So in the case of Despoilers, they can use at the same time combat shield, ccw and a pistol.

 

Yea, of course they can use a pistol as an extra CCW while using a combat shield, but pistols don't come built into the combat shield upgrade. So when the space wolf option tells you to exchange the pistol for the shield, you lose on an attack due to lacking 2 CCW.

[01RTB01]

4 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

You should never feel bad about customizing your models. A 3d printed conversion is no different to a scratchbuild or a kit bash or any other type of conversion. These are your models that you paid for and GW doesn't have any right to tell you what to do with them and if someone else can provide you what you need but for cheaper or faster well then that's just capitalism at work and they need to up thier game and compete better.

That's fair. It's not as if I'm asking for plastic palatines, same as many folk I'm just after plastic assault marines and breachers.

 

Ironically I don't actually like the jump pack design on the plastic assault marines. First world problems strike again lol.

[Noserenda]

I mean, theres nothing wrong with asking for plastic Palatines too, though i suspect at best we might get some upgrade style sprues given there are 18 legions to cover :) 

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

I mean, theres nothing wrong with asking for plastic Palatines too, though i suspect at best we might get some upgrade style sprues given there are 18 legions to cover :) 

Totally agree!

 

I've waited for plastic noise marines since 1996 so I'm nothing if not patient lol. (I really would love an amazing noise marines kit with loads of insane variety. Can but hope)

[Doctor Perils]

Well, the salamanders' inductii don't really pique my interest, and the Iron Warriors ones _definitely_ don't - looking more and more like I'm going to skip this book.

 

Hopefully we'll still be able to use the other legion specific Decurions without the rules from this, I like the concept of them but I'm not prepared to pony up 50€ for one partial unit entry

[Xenith]

Some nice options there, some good and some bad. As usual IF, SoH and DA seem to get decent ones? If they're an upgrade to tacs, cheaper 20 man charger units will be insane - with the 25pt non tactical tax in HH, you'll get 10 inductii with chargers+Line for the price of 6 tac supports that don't have line. 

 

Alpha one is so so, unless I'm sticking chainswords on them and adding an excursor HW choice. 

[Squark]

Eh, tactical support squads are a lousy comparison for the DA inductii. Volkite Chargers are horribly overcosted on TSS, so of course DA Inductii look good.

 

Compare to a Stormwing Tactical Squad (Since Inductii can't be taken in amy unique rite of war, we'll use the optimal Hexagrammaton choice for Tacticals since that's where you're making the choice...

 

At Rapid Fire range, both have 2 attacks. We'll use an enemy tactical/despoiler squad as the target because we're going to assume we're letting the big guns deal with high priority targets.

 

Tactical Squad: Hit on 2+, wound on 4+, target gets armor save. .139 casualties/shot.

 

Inductii: Hit and wound on 3+, target gets armor save. .148 casualties/shot before deflagrate. Not in a position to be positive on the bump from deflagrate, but just adding one third of .148 to that which I think is, if not correct, at least in the ballpark, gives us .198 casualties/shot. That's a 40% increase in stopping power, but comes with a few big caveats;

 

Edit: I figured out where my math was wrong. The actual figure is .181 casualties/shot, so a 30% increase in killing power.

 

-You lose 9" of maximum Range, so you probably need a rhino/drop pod.

-You don't have fury of the legion, which tips the scales in the tactical squad's favor within 12". That also means the tactical squad needs to move less amd is less likely to be charged.

-You have the standard inductii caveats like no characters and no artificer armor

-As mentioned, the only unique rite of war you can use is the awful Deathwing one.

-On the plus side, volkite chargers are assault weapons so you can charge in and club a lone survivor or two to death, but without bayonets you shouldn't charge anything close to full or probably even half strength.

 

Overall, I'd day DA Inductii are decent if you're looking for another scoring unit in a transport and aren't running, but I wouldn't call them "insane."

Edited May 22, 2023 by Squark

[Xenith]

2 hours ago, Squark said:

Eh, tactical support squads are a lousy comparison for the DA inductii. Volkite Chargers are horribly overcosted on TSS, so of course DA Inductii look good.

 

Do you mean Calivers, which are absolutely overcosted? A charger armed tactical support marine is 12pts, 2pts more than a tactical marine, which is the same 2pts upgrade that a charger is everywhere else in the book. One of the weaknessess of TSS's is they are not line, as well as the 25pts tax for not being tactical or despoiler squad, both of which are seemingly negated by the DA inductii rules, assuming they have line, and get chargers at 2ppm. 

 

EDIT: Sprues and Brews says that the swap to volkite chargers is free, which is actually insane if they keep line - 100pts for 10 Line chargers vs 97pts for 6 without Line in a support squad. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Xenith

[m0nolith]

In regards to  the new ZM rules, are Leviathans still not allowed?

[Indy Techwisp]

Regarding Inductii, how do they stack up, in people's opinion?
Are there any that seem way to good to be essentially the "conscripts" of the HH?

[Petitioner's City]

2 hours ago, m0nolith said:

In regards to  the new ZM rules, are Leviathans still not allowed?

 

No, of course not :)

 

 

 

Source: https://spruesandbrews.com/2023/05/20/the-siege-of-cthonia-review-warhammer-the-horus-heresy/

Edited May 22, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Spagunk]

Leviathans and Deredeos have less than 8 wounds (7 and 6 respectively). They may be thinking of Toughness? IDK but if true then they should be valid. Unless there is a base size restriction again.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Spagunk

[Squark]

4 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Do you mean Calivers, which are absolutely overcosted? A charger armed tactical support marine is 12pts, 2pts more than a tactical marine, which is the same 2pts upgrade that a charger is everywhere else in the book. One of the weaknessess of TSS's is they are not line, as well as the 25pts tax for not being tactical or despoiler squad, both of which are seemingly negated by the DA inductii rules, assuming they have line, and get chargers at 2ppm. 

 

EDIT: Sprues and Brews says that the swap to volkite chargers is free, which is actually insane if they keep line - 100pts for 10 Line chargers vs 97pts for 6 without Line in a support squad. 

No, I meant chargers. 145 points for an impractical sidegrade to the boltgun (for a squad of 10 TSS) is a bad joke*. Chargers are overpriced on terminators and other units that are swapping out their gun for one, too, but I didn't consider that relevant to the discussion at the time.

 

New releases should be balanced against the game as a whole, not against stuff that was bad (which should ideally be errata'd occasionally to be not bad).

 

Calivers are actually better, since they have better point for point stopping power and have better time on target due to the increased range. They play second fiddle to the HSS's Culverin, but the Culverin squad might be a tad too cheap, honestly. It's kind of scary how quickly a unit that cheap chews through heavy infantry.

 

*The difference in expected casualties from 10 marines rapid firing boltguns into other marines vs. 10 marines with chargers is slightly more than 1 model for non Stormwing/Imperial fists (2.22 vs 3.62. The +1 to hit brings the boltun up to 2.78, which is relevant since Inductii have to compete for alots with other DA and get no Hexagrammaton abolity of their own), but the charger has shorter range and doesn't have fury of the legion for added firepower in ideal scenarios.

 

Edit: Personally, I would have given these DA inductii Gets Hot on their volkites, the idea being that that when Volkite weapons were being phased out, the Dark Angels dumped a bunch into storage and the techmarines didn't have the time to maintain them. But with supply lines stretched, the DA are forced to break out the somewhat broken down chargers and hand them to the most expendable soldiers they have.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Squark

[Petitioner's City]

9 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

Leviathans and Deredeos have less than 8 wounds (7 and 6 respectively). They may be thinking of Toughness? IDK but if true then they should be valid. Unless there is a base size restriction again.

 

Oh shoot, I'm an idiot - sorry  

[Ripper.McGuirl]

10 hours ago, Doctor Perils said:

Well, the salamanders' inductii don't really pique my interest, and the Iron Warriors ones _definitely_ don't - looking more and more like I'm going to skip this book.

 

Hopefully we'll still be able to use the other legion specific Decurions without the rules from this, I like the concept of them but I'm not prepared to pony up 50€ for one partial unit entry

I mean, there is still all the Zone Mortalis rules, and a huge section of background that sounds absolutely awesome. I'm a salamander/alpha legion player and I'm still super jazzed about this book.

[Marshal Rohr]

Inductii are super rad, I hope the next book has something like this again. 60 bucks for 120 pages of lore is a great sign. 

[Spagunk]

I am tepid on BA getting Fear at the cost of Sweeping advanced (and Spite, I suppose). It's fluffy and I love that part but Fear requires that you win combat to be relevant while other inductii benefit most of the time. Not to say it's bad, just that it's not as great as other inductii benefits.