Black Library fiction The Lion: Son of The Forest - Novel

[beefeb]

I do hope they draw a line under the fallen nonsense.....by far the weakest part of DA lore....as pointed out, plenty of other loyal legions had members side with Horus, but they just killed them where they can and got on with fighting for the Emperor.  DA have acted like petulant children, and compounded error upon error to try to hide it......very poor behaviour for the first legion.  Hopefully the Lion tells his guys to get over it and get on wtih the business at hand....ie chaos rampant through the galaxy, and nids eating everything in sight....much more relevant and important.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So the lion has some sort of personal warp travel, wonder if that will be expanded on to help the imperium travel the warp. Even if it is limited to requiring lion to be within a certain distance.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, beefeb said:

I do hope they draw a line under the fallen nonsense.....by far the weakest part of DA lore....as pointed out, plenty of other loyal legions had members side with Horus, but they just killed them where they can and got on with fighting for the Emperor.  DA have acted like petulant children, and compounded error upon error to try to hide it......very poor behaviour for the first legion.  Hopefully the Lion tells his guys to get over it and get on wtih the business at hand....ie chaos rampant through the galaxy, and nids eating everything in sight....much more relevant and important.

Tbf I think when the lore was originally written, there was a hard line separating traitor legions and loyalist legions, with very little to no overlap.

 

i think the lore of some marines from loyalist chapters turning traitor only came about with the HH book series.

 

but if it’s 50ish percent of the DA fell compared to 1-20% of other loyalist legions I think that great percentage would be just fine for them to carry extra shame and regret over their chapter’s history.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

i think the lore of some marines from loyalist chapters turning traitor only came about with the HH book series.

Nah, it existed long before then. 
 

Blood Quest had fallen in it, and several other books and stories I read had traitor marines from loyal chapters.

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

Nah, it existed long before then. 
 

Blood Quest had fallen in it, and several other books and stories I read had traitor marines from loyal chapters.

 

But not from the heresy, from the actual legions, but usually from later generations of the various chapters that followed them (be it the one with the same name or a successor). What Swallow and then Wraight did with the Scars, for example, was a big thing that opened the door more widely, something the game also has done so much with. But it has led to that weird situation with the angels....

 

However we also know that the imperium will commit exterminatus against a chapter it associates with renegade marines (Ahriman: Sorcerer) and it will not blink to attack a first founding chapter it has concerns with (the wolves and various factions). So there is some justification for the angels' paranoia that such a revelation would lead to censure by one of its many imperial rivals or enemies.

[Arkangilos]

12 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

But not from the heresy

I thought he was talking about the chapters, not the legions. My bad!

[JeffJedi]

Well the Dark Angels seemed loyal and it wasn't until the Emperor was already on the Golden Throne permanently that it was revealed that the Fallen were traitors. Then their planet being destroyed and their Primarch possibly killed would be too much to bear for the Imperium. The greater Imperium had just had the scouring and it may have seemed the Dark Angels were newly traitorous and came after them.

[Petitioner's City]

8 minutes ago, JeffJedi said:

Well the Dark Angels seemed loyal and it wasn't until the Emperor was already on the Golden Throne permanently that it was revealed that the Fallen were traitors. Then their planet being destroyed and their Primarch possibly killed would be too much to bear for the Imperium. The greater Imperium had just had the scouring and it may have seemed the Dark Angels were newly traitorous and came after them.

 

Yeah we have to understand it was an extremely vengeful time. And the angels themselves had been "no quarters given" agents of that vengeance throughout the heresy. No wonder that fear set in, and lasted, and lasted. 

 

The fallen also represent a continuous opportunity for vengeance for the forsaken, as well as a dark mirror to themselves - "if they fell, can I? No, never; they are an abomination, I am pure. But am I?" And thus the addition of that extra "hate those are what I fear I am" style vindictiveness attitude. It probably means those who know the truth also fear the flaw in their juniors all the more, and thus justify being so secretive even more - a flawed (or true) version of the truth might bring not revulsion at the fallen, but empathy for them from misguided forsaken marines. So it can only be told after so much testing, so much understanding that the hearer will hate the fallen with the same zeal as those who already know. 

 

All very interesting, even now, after so many years. It of course has many real world parallels, which I think is why it's so powerful - and seemingly too seductive for GW writers to resist.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Marshal Mittens]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:31 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Tbf I think when the lore was originally written, there was a hard line separating traitor legions and loyalist legions, with very little to no overlap.

 

i think the lore of some marines from loyalist chapters turning traitor only came about with the HH book series.

 

but if it’s 50ish percent of the DA fell compared to 1-20% of other loyalist legions I think that great percentage would be just fine for them to carry extra shame and regret over their chapter’s history.

Didn't the World Eaters have to purge 50% of their legion that was still loyal to Emps at Istavaan? Would that make DA same loyalty level as World Eaters?

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Didn't the World Eaters have to purge 50% of their legion that was still loyal to Emps at Istavaan? Would that make DA same loyalty level as World Eaters?

 

Different motivation I think.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:41 PM, Petitioner's City said:

 

Yeah we have to understand it was an extremely vengeful time. And the angels themselves had been "no quarters given" agents of that vengeance throughout the heresy. No wonder that fear set in, and lasted, and lasted. 

 

The fallen also represent a continuous opportunity for vengeance for the forsaken, as well as a dark mirror to themselves - "if they fell, can I? No, never; they are an abomination, I am pure. But am I?" And thus the addition of that extra "hate those are what I fear I am" style vindictiveness attitude. It probably means those who know the truth also fear the flaw in their juniors all the more, and thus justify being so secretive even more - a flawed (or true) version of the truth might bring not revulsion at the fallen, but empathy for them from misguided forsaken marines. So it can only be told after so much testing, so much understanding that the hearer will hate the fallen with the same zeal as those who already know. 

 

All very interesting, even now, after so many years. It of course has many real world parallels, which I think is why it's so powerful - and seemingly too seductive for GW writers to resist.

Yep, when you get into the depths of the idea or concept behind the fallen,  really becomes compelling. It’s also just too easy to dumb it down and over simplify the the concept and that’s what the memes do and why so many become tired of it.

 

if I hadn’t gone blood angels I probably would have gone DA… but maybe I’m just an edgy little edge lord.

2 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Didn't the World Eaters have to purge 50% of their legion that was still loyal to Emps at Istavaan? Would that make DA same loyalty level as World Eaters?

Depending on how many DA fell sure, and the WE would also be loyalists if things went the other way around for their legion.

[Noserenda]

Plus, y'know, the Dark Angels were already colossally arrogant and extremely prone to conspiracy and needless secrecy and overcomplication. Even if they were taking a softly softly approach to the traitors and not engaging in a merciless punitive campaign against their homeworlds they would probably react in much the same way to the revelation of the Fallen.

You could certainly argue that the Fallen were originally a bit more of an odd strand, but the Heresy got a lot bigger and had a lot more thought put into it, and the various authors have been backfilling the setup to the situation the whole time.

Plus y'know still bad to wish other peoples armies didnt exist.

[crimsondave]

Frankly, I’d settle for just moving the story of the Fallen forward.  If they want to keep it going , fine.  Just move it along and stop with same old memes.

[b1soul]

I'd prefer a major sidelining of the Fallen conflict as the Lion returns and most of the non-Chaos Fallen answer his call.

 

The irredeemable Chaos Fallen are not fundamentally different from any Chaos-corrupted warband derived from a loyalist chapter, so would love it if BL could please move on.

 

Another less preferred approach would be a roughly 50/50 schism among the non-Chaos Fallen, and the dance of the Fallen continues even after the Lion's return.

 

In that case, I'd still be largely content if a top-tier BL authour handles those developments. Thorpe's novel-writing skills are quite rudimentary, and I'd prefer that he sticks to writing fluff blurbs and plotting meta-ideas, which I think he's competent at. To put it mildly, writing long-form stories isn't really his forte.

Edited April 2, 2023 by b1soul

[Alternis]

What are the chances that all these ‘reports’ we’ve been reading that Luther is amassing the fallen, hasn’t been Luther at all, infact it’s been Lion running around in the Somnian Stars gathering the fallen?

[WARMASTER_]

41 minutes ago, Alternis said:

What are the chances that all these ‘reports’ we’ve been reading that Luther is amassing the fallen, hasn’t been Luther at all, infact it’s been Lion running around in the Somnian Stars gathering the fallen?

While the chances aren’t zero, it’s rare for GW set set up a major conflict for years that’s a complete bait and switch this is 40K and conflicts required 

Edited April 3, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

26 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

While the chances aren’t zero, it’s rare for GW set set up a major conflict for years that’s a complete bait and switch this is 40K and conflicts required 

But this is also GW, and while I don’t know off the top of my head I feel like the ol’ bait and switch has popped up in GW’s history regularly.

[Ammonius]

Was there any indication of when this might be out? If not a date, then a quarter? If not a quarter then a year?

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

51 minutes ago, Ammonius said:

Was there any indication of when this might be out? If not a date, then a quarter? If not a quarter then a year?

 

Probably before or with 10th

[Noserenda]

56 minutes ago, Ammonius said:

Was there any indication of when this might be out? If not a date, then a quarter? If not a quarter then a year?

 

Alongside the Lion Arks of Omen book id expect, so late April/May

[Lord Marshal]

On 4/1/2023 at 11:39 PM, crimsondave said:

Frankly, I’d settle for just moving the story of the Fallen forward.  If they want to keep it going , fine.  Just move it along and stop with same old memes.

 

With the reemphasis on BIG NAMES driving the metaplot, I wouldn't be shocked if "The Dark Angels hunt the Fallen" instead more or less morphs into "The Lion hunts Luther."

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Grenzer]

4 hours ago, Ammonius said:

Was there any indication of when this might be out? If not a date, then a quarter? If not a quarter then a year?

 

Well, goodreads has an expected release date of April 22nd. Not much to go off of unfortunately.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Grenzer said:

Well, goodreads has an expected release date of April 22nd. Not much to go off of unfortunately.

 

That is the date of the last AoO book I think so would all tie in nicely. 

[Scribe]

The funny thing is that it isnt even the Fallen or Luther which matter.

 

Its the fact that the DA for 10K years, have been willing to disobey orders, abandon allies, or outright betray them, for the sake of the Fallen.

 

This was the message of the Luther novel, which I certainly hope would be picked up on by this book.

[Brother Borgia]

Yeah, the metaphor about Lionel Johnson struggles have been overused and it would be a huge improvement if DA could move on from the Fallen omniprésence.

 

I liked their participation in the Wrath of Magnus when they almost sealed Fenris’s fate.

 

By the way, somnium means dream in Latin.