Black Library fiction The Lion: Son of The Forest - Novel

[Sea Creature]

If the Lion forgives all of the Fallen the good thing is no more Dark Angels are CSM memes.

[Flaherty]

How do true blue fans of the 1st respond to the argument that the HH books have diluted the importance of the Fallen as the DA hook by showing just how many loyalist factions had sizable traitor contingents? At a certain point, doesn't it make their paranoia seem a bit silly? Presumably, tales of traitors from loyal factions would circulate over the span of thousands of years and take a bit of the oomph out of that particular quest? It seems like they could focus on "first/best/only" as they are the first legion, have no qualms about sharing that belief, and have some access to tools no other legion does. It's the heroic flipside of the Emperor's Children. That said, I just want fewer groups trying to claim the mantle of "most secretive." 

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, Flaherty said:

How do true blue fans of the 1st respond to the argument that the HH books have diluted the importance of the Fallen as the DA hook by showing just how many loyalist factions had sizable traitor contingents?

 

I think there is a tendency to relate the two settings (HH and 40k) more closely than they really should be. Horus Heresy is literal ancient history by the time 40k takes place. Just because we can bounce back and forth between the two as hobbyists does not mean they are that closely connected in-universe.

 

6 minutes ago, Flaherty said:

Presumably, tales of traitors from loyal factions would circulate over the span of thousands of years and take a bit of the oomph out of that particular quest?

 

This does not happen, because information like this does not circulate within the Imperium.

 

Whether the Dark Angels were justified or not in keeping their traitors a secret is not the point. The point is that they did decide to keep their traitors a secret, and at this point they have been doing it for so long and have committed so many questionable acts in service of that secret that they simply cannot stop.

[Karhedron]

36 minutes ago, Flaherty said:

How do true blue fans of the 1st respond to the argument that the HH books have diluted the importance of the Fallen as the DA hook by showing just how many loyalist factions had sizable traitor contingents? At a certain point, doesn't it make their paranoia seem a bit silly?

 

There is a significant difference in that traitors in other loyalist legions were generally dealt with before the Siege of Terra. The White Scars are the most obviously notable for having a sizable chunk of collaborators in their ranks. These were purged once the nature of the Heresy became clear and the penitent were sent on suicide missions to atone.

 

The Dark Angels are (I think) unique in having a large faction of their forces turn traitor and survive beyond the end of the Heresy (largely due to the Lion side-lining Luther). Those traitors were then scattered through both time and space during the Fall of Caliban. While other Chapters may have dark legends of collaborators, they will be nothing more than hearsay after 10,000 years. The Dark Angels on the other hand have a constant living breathing reminder of their darkest secrets that could pop up at any time. Those who have spent the longest time and most effort hiding their secrets are always the most afraid of those secrets being revealed.

[crimsondave]

If the Lion lost patience with a certain HH chaplain and decapitated him with his fist, what chance does Asmodai have?

[BitsHammer]

16 minutes ago, crimsondave said:

If the Lion lost patience with a certain HH chaplain and decapitated him with his fist, what chance does Asmodai have?

Depends on if Asmodai can even summon the geneseed to defy the Lion.

[spessmarine]

13 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I mean, people scoff but think it over, outside the Fallen and Fallen realted things the Dark Angels really have 4 things left in 40k: 

1. We like Plasma and have a very few dusty super weapons left
2. A very faint vestige of "knights"
3. Famous intolerance of mutants and abhumans, and even that hasnt come up recently.
4. An unhealthy love of secrets and conspiracy (yay :D ) 

They could, i suppose go back to their 30k identity and we can have another Legion that barely changed in 10k years (zzzzz) or be drifting into the same design space as Black Templars (unwise)  but honestly i much prefer them as is, things dont have to change just for the sake of it when they work.
 

BTs are more fanatics than knights. Grey Knights are the paladin archetype.

Leaves knights played a bit more straight with some other flavouring on top. Which I think is fine, the worst part about the Fallen is that it pushes into one-note and flanderization territory.
 

[twopounder]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:06 AM, Nagashsnee said:

Nothing the Lion can do will undo all the stuff the DA have done over 10k years hunting the lion, the sheer number of loyal souls they put to the pyre is insane. 

 

While i agree that the fallen storyline should close, the only thing the DA are paragons of is team killing. Like i know the memes have made it  a joke, but the DA are bad people FOR THE IMPERIUM STANDARDS.   Its the same situation that Sanguinius faced when he was presented with his legion, only worse in every single way and done for over 9k extra years. 

 

Book after book and edition after edition GW has moved the DA from knights with a dark secret, to paranoid murder psychopaths who dress up as knights.  There are probably chaos chapters/warbands with lower imperial kill counts then any 1 generation of DA marines. 

And it's still nothing compared to the grey Knight's kill count. Or black ships. Or arbites.

 

The emperor eats 1000 innocent souls a day.

 

Welcome to 40k.

 

The DA have the last bit of dark story left in what has otherwise become a sterilized sci-fi drama with cartoon villains. I'm hoping the lion doesn't simply blend in and make the DA a vanilla chapter.

 

[OpossumStrong]

21 hours ago, twopounder said:

And it's still nothing compared to the grey Knight's kill count. Or black ships. Or arbites.

 

The emperor eats 1000 innocent souls a day.

 

Welcome to 40k.

 

The DA have the last bit of dark story left in what has otherwise become a sterilized sci-fi drama with cartoon villains. I'm hoping the lion doesn't simply blend in and make the DA a vanilla chapter.

 

I dislike DA for those reasons, and it's got nothing with "oh its grim and dark and far future, its all bad and everyone is vile in one way or another", they think they look like honourable knights, loyal etc, but the truth is that they are selfish and unreliable, they stagnated for 10k years, they killed and abandoned allies mid combat, for bizarre reasons, like - to look for one fallen (not even confirmed he is there,rumors), they put themselves over others, they were ready to fight the only at that moment loyal and present primarch, they are a perfect example of "with such allies, one needs no enemies". They are acting like 9yo with tantrum.

 

Grey knight are vital for the imperium, The Emperor is the heart and the light of the imperium, you can't compare those to selfishness of DA, who tries to prove how loyal they are, though no one asked or doubted.

 

I do hope this book will show them in other light, i do hope lion have changed.

 

Its not only towards DA i have such feelings, i do like character for chapters and their own rituals and history, traditions, but when its not affecting their judgement and duty, they are supposed to be elite soldiers with "Imperium priorities are our priorities", especially after the lessons of the HH and not what they became in 40k.

 

 

The best part of DA lore in 40k

"It is said on Fenris, that when the dark angels have fled the battlefield and returned to the Rock, they go about the place naked... ANOINTING THEIR BODIES WITH OIL AN-"

 

Deathwatch:The Last Guardian

Edited April 18, 2023 by OpossumStrong

[Wraithwing]

Just read the Son of the Forest. Great read, and I absolutley love the direction they are taking the Lion. 

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

I’ve finished the book. A good read and definitely enjoyable but left me with more questions than when I started it. If you’re looking for any answers about the Lion’s return then you may well be disappointed. 

[phandaal]

On 4/18/2023 at 8:21 AM, OpossumStrong said:

"It is said on Fenris, that when the dark angels have fled the battlefield and returned to the Rock, they go about the place naked... ANOINTING THEIR BODIES WITH OIL AN-"

 

It's true. All of it.

[Arkangilos]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:25 PM, twopounder said:

The emperor eats 1000 innocent souls a day

Incorrect.

 

He eats 1,000 “less guilty” souls a day. Innocence is a claim made by the guilty to avoid punishment or duty. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Akerkoke]

5 hours ago, Ser Arthur Dayne said:

I’ve finished the book. A good read and definitely enjoyable but left me with more questions than when I started it. If you’re looking for any answers about the Lion’s return then you may well be disappointed. 

It raises questions and poses interesting starting points for the development of the plot overall.
I like the fact that the Lion becoming older has also become wiser, now truly more a King Arthur than during the Crusade/HH.
Also the Fallen storyline hasn't gone anywhere, become interesting in his own new way (will see how it develops).
Iit was becoming stale, repetitive and overall boring, a meme more than a plot arc

[Azoriel]

14 hours ago, Akerkoke said:

It raises questions and poses interesting starting points for the development of the plot overall.
I like the fact that the Lion becoming older has also become wiser, now truly more a King Arthur than during the Crusade/HH.
Also the Fallen storyline hasn't gone anywhere, become interesting in his own new way (will see how it develops).
Iit was becoming stale, repetitive and overall boring, a meme more than a plot arc

 

 

[Sea Creature]

I wonder how soft he will be on the Fallen.

[BitsHammer]

The book is up on Audible. Price is USD. I bought a three pack of credits and got three books because it's more economical.

 

[Gederas]

So I've had the book since Wednesday and finished it Thursday. Gotta say:

this is the best Dark Angels novel I've ever read. AND IT'S A FALLEN-CENTRIC NOVEL!

 

What I found amusing is you can see Lion's progression as a character each time Guilliman is mentioned in the book.

 

 

First time: "I should have killed him"
Second time: backhanded compliment
Third time: Lion is overjoyed to hear Guilliman is alive

  

15 hours ago, Sea Creature said:

I wonder how soft he will be on the Fallen.

It's a case-by-case basis actually. But Lion is older and wiser now, and realizes he was just as much of a cause of the Breaking as the traitors on Caliban were.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Gederas

[Doctor Perils]

48 minutes ago, Gederas said:

So I've had the book since Wednesday and finished it Thursday. Gotta say:

this is the best Dark Angels novel I've ever read. AND IT'S A FALLEN-CENTRIC NOVEL!

 

What I found amusing is you can see Lion's progression as a character each time Guilliman is mentioned in the book.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

First time: "I should have killed him"
Second time: backhanded compliment
Third time: Lion is overjoyed to hear Guilliman is alive

  

It's a case-by-case basis actually. But Lion is older and wiser now, and realizes he was just as much of a cause of the Breaking as the traitors on Caliban were.

Would you say one needs to have read any other 40k Dark Angels material before reading this? I've read the Angels duology and Angels of Caliban in HH, but not much else

[Gederas]

3 minutes ago, Doctor Perils said:

Would you say one needs to have read any other 40k Dark Angels material before reading this? I've read the Angels duology and Angels of Caliban in HH, but not much else

None needed with the 40k ones. It's been a while since I've read the 30k novels but iirc one of the Fallen in the novel is a returning character from the 30k books.

 

Basically, if you know the general fluff of DA and Fallen (IE: Some of the Fallen are full-on Chaos-traitors and some aren't, but are still being hunted all the same) that's all that's needed to understand the novel.

[BitsHammer]

4 hours ago, Gederas said:

So I've had the book since Wednesday and finished it Thursday. Gotta say:

this is the best Dark Angels novel I've ever read. AND IT'S A FALLEN-CENTRIC NOVEL!

 

What I found amusing is you can see Lion's progression as a character each time Guilliman is mentioned in the book.

 

  Hide contents

First time: "I should have killed him"
Second time: backhanded compliment
Third time: Lion is overjoyed to hear Guilliman is alive

  

It's a case-by-case basis actually. But Lion is older and wiser now, and realizes he was just as much of a cause of the Breaking as the traitors on Caliban were.

Don't forget that he comments that Guilliman 

Spoiler

wanted to improve on the Emperor's design meaning the Lion knew that Guilliman sought to improve the Astartes)

 

[Gederas]

1 hour ago, BitsHammer said:

Don't forget that he comments that Guilliman 

  Hide contents

wanted to improve on the Emperor's design meaning the Lion knew that Guilliman sought to improve the Astartes)

 

So that was ambiguous as I wasn't sure if that

 

was referencing the Primaris or the Codex Astartes

Edited April 22, 2023 by Gederas

[BitsHammer]

4 hours ago, Gederas said:

So that was ambiguous as I wasn't sure if that

  Hide contents

was referencing the Primaris or the Codex Astartes

The legion tactics were pioneered by the First Legion and expanded upon by later specialist legions. The organizational limits created by the Codex only exist because of the ending of the Heresy, so I don't think that is what the Lion's comment was about, but I could be wrong.

[Orange Knight]

I just downloaded it. I'll enjoy listening to it whilst I work, and I wasn't able to get the hardback or collectors edition novels.

[Petitioner's City]

16 hours ago, Doctor Perils said:

Would you say one needs to have read any other 40k Dark Angels material before reading this? I've read the Angels duology and Angels of Caliban in HH, but not much else

 

I would recommend reading Crusade, the 9th black book, from a friendly online source, as well as the Luther novella (both before this). These provide probably the best context for this.